Power from the cold of space
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jschell wrote:
Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
Technically, that's not heat - as that requires not being in a "near vacuum" that space is. If heat is "just" the wobble of atomic particles, how do you radiate that into "nothing"? Abusing gravity might give more energy. This would generate "heat" (wobble of atoms) that might be harnessed. Getting cold from a vacuum is something we could actually test on earth - I'm looking forward to fridges and air conditioning based on the principle that you can get rid of heat using a near-vacuum :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
If heat is "just" the wobble of atomic particles, how do you radiate that into "nothing"?
The same way the Sun emits heat into nothing - through electromagnetic waves/particles.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
If heat is "just" the wobble of atomic particles, how do you radiate that into "nothing"?
The same way the Sun emits heat into nothing - through electromagnetic waves/particles.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
The same way the Sun emits heat into nothing - through electromagnetic waves/particles.
That's not particles, is it? Show me a "electromagnetic waves/particles" that cools stuff? Radiation (which is more than magnetic kind, including x-ray, but not particles which have mass which waves don't have) is a form of energy; if it interacts with particles, it increases their "wobble", their temperature. Find me a wave that decreases a particles wobble? What wave does that? --edit Silly me did not say that the sun looses heat, in forms of radiations and photon emissions. Just one small thing; it uses trillions of nuclear explosions to do so. So yes, if you can generate that amount of heat, you may loose a bit due to radiation (and actual gravity, pushing away mass).
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
The same way the Sun emits heat into nothing - through electromagnetic waves/particles.
That's not particles, is it? Show me a "electromagnetic waves/particles" that cools stuff? Radiation (which is more than magnetic kind, including x-ray, but not particles which have mass which waves don't have) is a form of energy; if it interacts with particles, it increases their "wobble", their temperature. Find me a wave that decreases a particles wobble? What wave does that? --edit Silly me did not say that the sun looses heat, in forms of radiations and photon emissions. Just one small thing; it uses trillions of nuclear explosions to do so. So yes, if you can generate that amount of heat, you may loose a bit due to radiation (and actual gravity, pushing away mass).
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Light is not one or the other, a wave or a particle. Light acts like both at the same time. That's why you hear about radio "waves" at the same time that you hear about photons.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Light is not one or the other, a wave or a particle. Light acts like both at the same time. That's why you hear about radio "waves" at the same time that you hear about photons.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Light "behaves" as both, which does not mean it is neither one. Radio is a lot slower a wave. Fun fact; the first wave that aliens see, is a speech from Hitler coming from earth. The difference is important; not every wave is as fast as light, and light is not just a particle. It is, however, energy. You need to convert matter into light to loose "energy" and cool particles, and the particles need to be very agitated before they think even about radiating energy.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Yes, they are claiming that their patented material emits infrared radiation in the 8-13 micrometer range that avoids the heat trapping molecules of the atmosphere. Basically, the night sky looks like a transparent window glass to these specific wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. The net effect is to cool the emitting material down. During the day, the material needs to reflect at least 94% of all of the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum to keep the material from heating up and disturbing the cooling effect.
Or you put a mirror over it during the day. Now, please explain how IR interacts with magnetism? Yes, you could radiate energy away, by creating something that looks like a sun to nocturnal animals that can actually see IR. That implies loosing energy, not creating power.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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From CP newsletter Generating Power on Earth From the Coldness of Deep Space - IEEE Spectrum[^] Presumably I am reading that wrong. "Energy harvesting using the cold of the universe is still under development." Best I can tell all of the examples are using the 'cold of the earth'. It has nothing to do with the universe. And not very efficiently either compared to other technologies. Obviously if the roof is covered with that then it is not covered with solar panels. The company mentioned, SkyCool, also claims the same thing on their site. https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "by rejecting heat into the cold universe." Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
jschell wrote:
Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space?
Yes. As the article mentions, the radiation frequencies are chosen such that the atmosphere is completely transparent to the radiation. Hence it doesn't interact with the atmosphere and does actually radiate into space.
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
The same way the Sun emits heat into nothing - through electromagnetic waves/particles.
That's not particles, is it? Show me a "electromagnetic waves/particles" that cools stuff? Radiation (which is more than magnetic kind, including x-ray, but not particles which have mass which waves don't have) is a form of energy; if it interacts with particles, it increases their "wobble", their temperature. Find me a wave that decreases a particles wobble? What wave does that? --edit Silly me did not say that the sun looses heat, in forms of radiations and photon emissions. Just one small thing; it uses trillions of nuclear explosions to do so. So yes, if you can generate that amount of heat, you may loose a bit due to radiation (and actual gravity, pushing away mass).
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Just one small thing; it uses trillions of nuclear explosions to do so. So yes, if you can generate that amount of heat, you may loose lose a bit due to radiation
The source of the energy is irrelevant. Anything above a temperature of absolute zero (that is everything) will radiate energy and it's "temperature" will drop, ultimately to infinitesimally above absolute zero. It's why the universe is expected to eventually be uniformly cold and dark.
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Or you put a mirror over it during the day. Now, please explain how IR interacts with magnetism? Yes, you could radiate energy away, by creating something that looks like a sun to nocturnal animals that can actually see IR. That implies loosing energy, not creating power.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Now, please explain how IR interacts with magnetism?
The clue's in the name. IR is InfraRed radiation, which means it's ElectroMagnetic radiation with a frequency lower than the color Red.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Just one small thing; it uses trillions of nuclear explosions to do so. So yes, if you can generate that amount of heat, you may loose lose a bit due to radiation
The source of the energy is irrelevant. Anything above a temperature of absolute zero (that is everything) will radiate energy and it's "temperature" will drop, ultimately to infinitesimally above absolute zero. It's why the universe is expected to eventually be uniformly cold and dark.
"Expected", is the correct term. It would mean that there's energy somewhere in a vacuum, innit? Wasn't that how this all started?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Now, please explain how IR interacts with magnetism?
The clue's in the name. IR is InfraRed radiation, which means it's ElectroMagnetic radiation with a frequency lower than the color Red.
Isn't IR light, instead of being magnetic? I need to do some serious reading to catch back up on the topic :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that seemed to be missing. I kept expecting them to have cord dangling from a satellite or something. It all just seemed to be handwavium.
TTFN - Kent
'Handwavium the head into the orifice of darkness...' - author unknown, but possibly me. I like your 'handwavium'!
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Isn't IR light, instead of being magnetic? I need to do some serious reading to catch back up on the topic :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
IR and visible light are both forms of electromagnetic radiation. The only difference between then is that IR has a lower frequency (and longer wavelength).
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Isn't IR light, instead of being magnetic? I need to do some serious reading to catch back up on the topic :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Infrared and visible light, plus radio, UV, microwave, x-ray and gamma radiation are all electromagnetic waves at different frequencies. So they are all also photons with different energies.
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From CP newsletter Generating Power on Earth From the Coldness of Deep Space - IEEE Spectrum[^] Presumably I am reading that wrong. "Energy harvesting using the cold of the universe is still under development." Best I can tell all of the examples are using the 'cold of the earth'. It has nothing to do with the universe. And not very efficiently either compared to other technologies. Obviously if the roof is covered with that then it is not covered with solar panels. The company mentioned, SkyCool, also claims the same thing on their site. https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "by rejecting heat into the cold universe." Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
There is no such thing as a "cold radiator". Heat always flows from the high temperature to the lower. It might be possible to use the night sky as a heat sink for cooling (the radiator is hotter than the night sky), but that also seems like "handwavium" (love that word).
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Infrared and visible light, plus radio, UV, microwave, x-ray and gamma radiation are all electromagnetic waves at different frequencies. So they are all also photons with different energies.
That confuses me, as photons have mass. Also, the concept of light being a magnetic wave is new. Any good tips on reading-material?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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jschell wrote:
Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space?
Yes. As the article mentions, the radiation frequencies are chosen such that the atmosphere is completely transparent to the radiation. Hence it doesn't interact with the atmosphere and does actually radiate into space.
StarNamer@work wrote:
the radiation frequencies are chosen
Chosen? https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "The film reflects sunlight to prevent the panels from heating up during the day" No choosing on that one. And the atmosphere does absorb sunlight. "and also emits infrared heat to the cold sky" Now that one is unclear to me and perhaps what you are referring to. However infrared is in fact absorbed to some degree by the atmosphere. And where exactly is the infrared coming from? Best I can suppose is it just moving it from the building (inside) to the outside. But that depends on how it moves and there will be a loss factor (not stated.) Then that page also states the following "When fully replacing an air conditioning system, we expect an 80% to 90% energy reduction for cooling." If true then I don't understand why acceptance would not be instantaneous? That would cut total US energy needs by 8%. Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)[^]
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Light "behaves" as both, which does not mean it is neither one. Radio is a lot slower a wave. Fun fact; the first wave that aliens see, is a speech from Hitler coming from earth. The difference is important; not every wave is as fast as light, and light is not just a particle. It is, however, energy. You need to convert matter into light to loose "energy" and cool particles, and the particles need to be very agitated before they think even about radiating energy.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
True, a wave in the ocean is not as fast as light, but a light wave in a vacuum is always as fast as light. And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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True, a wave in the ocean is not as fast as light, but a light wave in a vacuum is always as fast as light. And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Different waves go at different speeds? Radio is not light, but both be waves?
Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
That is just moving energy from one particle to another. As others explained, it's not that; just radiating IR into space.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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From CP newsletter Generating Power on Earth From the Coldness of Deep Space - IEEE Spectrum[^] Presumably I am reading that wrong. "Energy harvesting using the cold of the universe is still under development." Best I can tell all of the examples are using the 'cold of the earth'. It has nothing to do with the universe. And not very efficiently either compared to other technologies. Obviously if the roof is covered with that then it is not covered with solar panels. The company mentioned, SkyCool, also claims the same thing on their site. https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "by rejecting heat into the cold universe." Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
jschell wrote:
Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
One way to think of it is like an infrared pigment that has a "color" that matches up with the most transparent color range of the atmosphere, so that the substance deviates a little bit from a blackbody spectrum.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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That confuses me, as photons have mass. Also, the concept of light being a magnetic wave is new. Any good tips on reading-material?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
[https://www.amazon.com/When-Uncertainty-Principle-Goes-11/dp/1944648526\](https://www.amazon.com/When-Uncertainty-Principle-Goes-11/dp/1944648526) was a fun read on some quantum mechanical ideas. [The Evidence for Modern Physics - Libby](https://share.libbyapp.com/title/9073429) Is a decent overview of how the ideas of modern physics were discovered.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
