Power from the cold of space
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jschell wrote:
Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space?
Yes. As the article mentions, the radiation frequencies are chosen such that the atmosphere is completely transparent to the radiation. Hence it doesn't interact with the atmosphere and does actually radiate into space.
StarNamer@work wrote:
the radiation frequencies are chosen
Chosen? https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "The film reflects sunlight to prevent the panels from heating up during the day" No choosing on that one. And the atmosphere does absorb sunlight. "and also emits infrared heat to the cold sky" Now that one is unclear to me and perhaps what you are referring to. However infrared is in fact absorbed to some degree by the atmosphere. And where exactly is the infrared coming from? Best I can suppose is it just moving it from the building (inside) to the outside. But that depends on how it moves and there will be a loss factor (not stated.) Then that page also states the following "When fully replacing an air conditioning system, we expect an 80% to 90% energy reduction for cooling." If true then I don't understand why acceptance would not be instantaneous? That would cut total US energy needs by 8%. Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)[^]
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Light "behaves" as both, which does not mean it is neither one. Radio is a lot slower a wave. Fun fact; the first wave that aliens see, is a speech from Hitler coming from earth. The difference is important; not every wave is as fast as light, and light is not just a particle. It is, however, energy. You need to convert matter into light to loose "energy" and cool particles, and the particles need to be very agitated before they think even about radiating energy.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
True, a wave in the ocean is not as fast as light, but a light wave in a vacuum is always as fast as light. And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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True, a wave in the ocean is not as fast as light, but a light wave in a vacuum is always as fast as light. And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Different waves go at different speeds? Radio is not light, but both be waves?
Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
That is just moving energy from one particle to another. As others explained, it's not that; just radiating IR into space.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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From CP newsletter Generating Power on Earth From the Coldness of Deep Space - IEEE Spectrum[^] Presumably I am reading that wrong. "Energy harvesting using the cold of the universe is still under development." Best I can tell all of the examples are using the 'cold of the earth'. It has nothing to do with the universe. And not very efficiently either compared to other technologies. Obviously if the roof is covered with that then it is not covered with solar panels. The company mentioned, SkyCool, also claims the same thing on their site. https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "by rejecting heat into the cold universe." Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
jschell wrote:
Far as I can see the system is using heat radiation (versus conduction and convection) to disperse the heat. Is there something in that to insure that it actually 'reaches' space? Versus of course just being absorbed into the atmosphere?
One way to think of it is like an infrared pigment that has a "color" that matches up with the most transparent color range of the atmosphere, so that the substance deviates a little bit from a blackbody spectrum.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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That confuses me, as photons have mass. Also, the concept of light being a magnetic wave is new. Any good tips on reading-material?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
[https://www.amazon.com/When-Uncertainty-Principle-Goes-11/dp/1944648526\](https://www.amazon.com/When-Uncertainty-Principle-Goes-11/dp/1944648526) was a fun read on some quantum mechanical ideas. [The Evidence for Modern Physics - Libby](https://share.libbyapp.com/title/9073429) Is a decent overview of how the ideas of modern physics were discovered.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Or you put a mirror over it during the day. Now, please explain how IR interacts with magnetism? Yes, you could radiate energy away, by creating something that looks like a sun to nocturnal animals that can actually see IR. That implies loosing energy, not creating power.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Sure, look up thermoelectric. The short explanation is there are certain materials when bonded together have an electrical barrier on the layer between the materials. The hot side is generally where the heat energy causes electrons to break away from atoms of the material and the cold side is where the electrons want to flow to. When the material absorbs enough IR energy the electrons from the hot side have enough energy to cross the barrier and enter the cooler side (they don't have enough energy to cross back over). They gather there and are available to use as an electric current. The Voyager 1 and 2 space craft have been using thermoelectric power for last 45+ years. I honestly am quite skeptical that there would enough of a difference in the hot and cold side of the system that was represented in the article that showed them using the heat radiated at away to space. It only seemed to be a few degrees C, even given that space is very, very cold. You still need a hot side that supplies enough kinetic energy to rip the electrons from their orbits around the atoms of the material and send them across the barrier to collect on the cold side.
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[https://www.amazon.com/When-Uncertainty-Principle-Goes-11/dp/1944648526\](https://www.amazon.com/When-Uncertainty-Principle-Goes-11/dp/1944648526) was a fun read on some quantum mechanical ideas. [The Evidence for Modern Physics - Libby](https://share.libbyapp.com/title/9073429) Is a decent overview of how the ideas of modern physics were discovered.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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That confuses me, as photons have mass. Also, the concept of light being a magnetic wave is new. Any good tips on reading-material?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Photons don't have mass. If they did, they couldn't travel at the speed of light.
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Sure, look up thermoelectric. The short explanation is there are certain materials when bonded together have an electrical barrier on the layer between the materials. The hot side is generally where the heat energy causes electrons to break away from atoms of the material and the cold side is where the electrons want to flow to. When the material absorbs enough IR energy the electrons from the hot side have enough energy to cross the barrier and enter the cooler side (they don't have enough energy to cross back over). They gather there and are available to use as an electric current. The Voyager 1 and 2 space craft have been using thermoelectric power for last 45+ years. I honestly am quite skeptical that there would enough of a difference in the hot and cold side of the system that was represented in the article that showed them using the heat radiated at away to space. It only seemed to be a few degrees C, even given that space is very, very cold. You still need a hot side that supplies enough kinetic energy to rip the electrons from their orbits around the atoms of the material and send them across the barrier to collect on the cold side.
Converting decaying plutonium? So, it is using a fuel, not just relying on the cold of space to provide power?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Photons don't have mass. If they did, they couldn't travel at the speed of light.
StarNamer@work wrote:
Photons don't have mass. If they did, they couldn't travel at the speed of light.
Well, particles have mass. Somewhat more special than neutrinos? "Photons are traditionally said to be massless. This is a figure of speech that physicists use" What is the mass of a photon?[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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StarNamer@work wrote:
the radiation frequencies are chosen
Chosen? https://www.skycoolsystems.com/technology/[^] "The film reflects sunlight to prevent the panels from heating up during the day" No choosing on that one. And the atmosphere does absorb sunlight. "and also emits infrared heat to the cold sky" Now that one is unclear to me and perhaps what you are referring to. However infrared is in fact absorbed to some degree by the atmosphere. And where exactly is the infrared coming from? Best I can suppose is it just moving it from the building (inside) to the outside. But that depends on how it moves and there will be a loss factor (not stated.) Then that page also states the following "When fully replacing an air conditioning system, we expect an 80% to 90% energy reduction for cooling." If true then I don't understand why acceptance would not be instantaneous? That would cut total US energy needs by 8%. Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)[^]
jschell wrote:
Chosen?
From https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy-from-cold Within the mid-infrared range, which is where heat radiation from typical earthbound objects is concentrated, the most applicable atmospheric transmission band is in the 8- to 13-micrometer-wavelength range. Glass is a great material for an emitter. Its atomic vibrations couple strongly to radiation around the 10-μm wavelength, forcing the material to emit much of its heat radiation within the transmission window So the material is chosen such that it's radiation frequency is in the transmission window, effectively choosing the frequency.
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StarNamer@work wrote:
Photons don't have mass. If they did, they couldn't travel at the speed of light.
Well, particles have mass. Somewhat more special than neutrinos? "Photons are traditionally said to be massless. This is a figure of speech that physicists use" What is the mass of a photon?[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Years ago, I did postgraduate research in Nuclear Physics, hence I use the shorthand most physicists use. The article you linked puts an upper limit on the rest mass of the photon at 7 x 10^(-17) eV which is about 1.2 x 10^(-49) gm. Also, I can't recommend any books since this is all just stuff I learned 50 years ago and keep updated by reading the odd article.
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Converting decaying plutonium? So, it is using a fuel, not just relying on the cold of space to provide power?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
For Voyager, decaying plutonium provides the "hot" side, space provides the "cold" side; otherwise, the only source of heat would be how warm the craft was when it launched!
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Converting decaying plutonium? So, it is using a fuel, not just relying on the cold of space to provide power?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
yes, that is true. However, the cold of space is the other half of the generator. The decaying plutonium provides the heat source and space is the cold side. There is no generation of power from the cold of space. It is the heat sink necessary for the thermoelectric effect. The article title was poorly chosen. The net effect of their patented emitter material was a 5 degree C drop in temperature with the narrow band IR emitter. This is simply not enough of a temperature difference to generate power. It can enhance terrestrial HVac systems though. I believe that is what that Sky... company was using it for.
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Different waves go at different speeds? Radio is not light, but both be waves?
Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
And I don't need to convert matter into light in order to lose energy. Friction causes the loss of lots of kinetic energy without converting matter into light.
That is just moving energy from one particle to another. As others explained, it's not that; just radiating IR into space.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Radio is not light, but both be waves?
Not sure if you're asking or telling, but radio waves are indeed light.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Radio is not light, but both be waves?
Not sure if you're asking or telling, but radio waves are indeed light.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Radio waves do not leave earth? So, a different wave than, say, TV or light? I'm asking; as matter being a wave already baffles me :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Radio waves do not leave earth? So, a different wave than, say, TV or light? I'm asking; as matter being a wave already baffles me :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Radio waves, TV and light all can leave earth. And all of them might not leave the earth. Depends on the situation. So for example for the OP discussion reflection from atmospheric conditions impacts it. In an absolute vacuum all travel at the speed of light. Reality is they travel somewhat slower. That is because an absolute vacuum is not possible. Although in terms of speed measurement it would not make much difference. All of them can behave like a wave or particle. For myself I emphasize the 'behave' part while internalizing that they are in fact neither. (Noting that actually setting up an experiment to detect the duality is very difficult if not impossible for some types.)
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Radio waves, TV and light all can leave earth. And all of them might not leave the earth. Depends on the situation. So for example for the OP discussion reflection from atmospheric conditions impacts it. In an absolute vacuum all travel at the speed of light. Reality is they travel somewhat slower. That is because an absolute vacuum is not possible. Although in terms of speed measurement it would not make much difference. All of them can behave like a wave or particle. For myself I emphasize the 'behave' part while internalizing that they are in fact neither. (Noting that actually setting up an experiment to detect the duality is very difficult if not impossible for some types.)
jschell wrote:
Radio waves, TV and light all can leave earth.
Radio doesn't, whereas TV waves do. AM/FM radio does not leave earth, but TV broadcasts do. Hence, the remark that the first an alien notices from our broadcasts, is a speech from Hitler.
jschell wrote:
In an absolute vacuum all travel at the speed of light.
Nope. If that was true, all mass from a supernova would reach us as the same speed. We can see the light, but we do not get the gold created in that nova.
jschell wrote:
All of them can behave like a wave or particle.
Again, no; only some "idiot" subatomic particles do. No proton ever pretends to be a wave?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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jschell wrote:
Radio waves, TV and light all can leave earth.
Radio doesn't, whereas TV waves do. AM/FM radio does not leave earth, but TV broadcasts do. Hence, the remark that the first an alien notices from our broadcasts, is a speech from Hitler.
jschell wrote:
In an absolute vacuum all travel at the speed of light.
Nope. If that was true, all mass from a supernova would reach us as the same speed. We can see the light, but we do not get the gold created in that nova.
jschell wrote:
All of them can behave like a wave or particle.
Again, no; only some "idiot" subatomic particles do. No proton ever pretends to be a wave?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Radio doesn't, whereas TV waves do
Your definition is weak. How do you think Nasa communicated with Apollo astronauts? Would you categorize that as "TV"? As an example although an FM radio transmission tends to bounce on the atmosphere it can escape.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Nope. If that was true, all mass from a supernova would reach us as the same speed.
"mass" is not electromagnetic. A supernova emits all kinds of things that are not electromagnetic. Second space is not an absolute vacuum. As I said it is not possible, not anywhere, to have a absolute vacuum. Actual outer space is full of all sorts of stuff which impacts anything moving through it. Given a fixed, contained, uniform medium electromagnetic waves travel through that medium at a speed that reflects the medium. It will be slower than the absolute limit of the speed of light because the medium will have something in it.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
No proton ever pretends to be a wave?
A proton is not "light". A proton is matter. It has mass. It is a particle. A traveling proton (and other particles) can exhibit wave like behavior. Ocean waves are of course matter but they too exhibit wave like behavior.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Radio doesn't, whereas TV waves do
Your definition is weak. How do you think Nasa communicated with Apollo astronauts? Would you categorize that as "TV"? As an example although an FM radio transmission tends to bounce on the atmosphere it can escape.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Nope. If that was true, all mass from a supernova would reach us as the same speed.
"mass" is not electromagnetic. A supernova emits all kinds of things that are not electromagnetic. Second space is not an absolute vacuum. As I said it is not possible, not anywhere, to have a absolute vacuum. Actual outer space is full of all sorts of stuff which impacts anything moving through it. Given a fixed, contained, uniform medium electromagnetic waves travel through that medium at a speed that reflects the medium. It will be slower than the absolute limit of the speed of light because the medium will have something in it.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
No proton ever pretends to be a wave?
A proton is not "light". A proton is matter. It has mass. It is a particle. A traveling proton (and other particles) can exhibit wave like behavior. Ocean waves are of course matter but they too exhibit wave like behavior.
jschell wrote:
Your definition is weak.
You overestimate me; it ain't my idea. We got told that radio is subject to gravity, and TV waves would be different?
jschell wrote:
Ocean waves are of course matter but they too exhibit wave like behavior.
Methinks different kind of wave :D Don't get angry over my lack of knowledge.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
