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  3. I live the chaos, but I don't understand it :(

I live the chaos, but I don't understand it :(

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  • 0 0x01AA

    I have to use up the unused vacation for 2023. I usually use this as an opportunity to do a little further training. At the end of this year 2023, I have decided to finally understand the term entropy in information technology to the end. But I fail once again:( All I can confirm so far is the statement of 'John von Neumann' (John von Neumann - Wikipedia[^]) to Claude Shannon - Wikipedia[^] : “You should call it entropy. […] Nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate “You will always have the advantage.” :sigh: :laugh: [Edit] Btw. any idea which forum here is ok to ask questions about that theme? [Edit1] Now I think it becomes out of 'lounge'disussion, sorry for that. Still I'm looking for a place where one can disuss that. I'm pretty shure that @KornfeldEliyahuPeter can help me of this ;)

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    BobbyStrain
    wrote on last edited by
    #13

    There is a simple equation that defines entropy. Chemical Engineers make use of the term to describe the behavior of substances. We use it, for example, to evaluate the performance of a steam turbine. It has been misused by zealous promoters to obfuscate information.

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    • B BobbyStrain

      There is a simple equation that defines entropy. Chemical Engineers make use of the term to describe the behavior of substances. We use it, for example, to evaluate the performance of a steam turbine. It has been misused by zealous promoters to obfuscate information.

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      0x01AA
      wrote on last edited by
      #14

      And that simple equation is?

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      • 0 0x01AA

        I think , I'm very save with binary numbers. But again translated by google, I don't get the point on that:

        Quote:

        Since it is well known that 2^n different bit patterns can be formed with n bits, it is immediately clear that a system with 2^n states can be completely described with an n-bit file, so that in this case H=n

        How one can desribe 256 condistions in a file with one byte? I'm pretty sure I have a problem understanding the article, but I'm also very happy if somebody can explain what I'm missinterpreting ;)

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        Jo_vb net
        wrote on last edited by
        #15

        A file with one byte can describe how many states a system has (state value 1 or 2 or ... 256). If you want describe 256 states you need 256 * 8 bit.

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        • 0 0x01AA

          I have to use up the unused vacation for 2023. I usually use this as an opportunity to do a little further training. At the end of this year 2023, I have decided to finally understand the term entropy in information technology to the end. But I fail once again:( All I can confirm so far is the statement of 'John von Neumann' (John von Neumann - Wikipedia[^]) to Claude Shannon - Wikipedia[^] : “You should call it entropy. […] Nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate “You will always have the advantage.” :sigh: :laugh: [Edit] Btw. any idea which forum here is ok to ask questions about that theme? [Edit1] Now I think it becomes out of 'lounge'disussion, sorry for that. Still I'm looking for a place where one can disuss that. I'm pretty shure that @KornfeldEliyahuPeter can help me of this ;)

          0 Offline
          0 Offline
          0x01AA
          wrote on last edited by
          #16

          Now I think it becomes out of 'lounge'disussion, sorry for that. Still I'm looking for a place where one can disuss that. I'm pretty shure that @KornfeldEliyahuPeter can help me of this ;)

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • 0 0x01AA

            Thanks for this. My usual problem is they state 'the probability is this and that' but no explanation why it is ;)

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            Gary Stachelski 2021
            wrote on last edited by
            #17

            In the case of the video, the probabilities were made up to create two different machines. They then went on to illustrate how you could calculate the information entropy for each machine to compare them. The machine with the lower calculated entropy was more predictable Or better organized. The higher the calculated entropy the more disorganized a system is, so it is harder to predict what the output of the next cycle will be.

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            • B BobbyStrain

              There is a simple equation that defines entropy. Chemical Engineers make use of the term to describe the behavior of substances. We use it, for example, to evaluate the performance of a steam turbine. It has been misused by zealous promoters to obfuscate information.

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              jschell
              wrote on last edited by
              #18

              Been a while but I don't think that is the same thing as entropy in information theory. But perhaps are related.

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              • 0 0x01AA

                And that simple equation is?

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                B Offline
                BobbyStrain
                wrote on last edited by
                #19

                [4.6 Entropy - University Physics Volume 2 | OpenStax](https://openstax.org/books/university-physics-volume-2/pages/4-6-entropy)

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                • 0 0x01AA

                  I think , I'm very save with binary numbers. But again translated by google, I don't get the point on that:

                  Quote:

                  Since it is well known that 2^n different bit patterns can be formed with n bits, it is immediately clear that a system with 2^n states can be completely described with an n-bit file, so that in this case H=n

                  How one can desribe 256 condistions in a file with one byte? I'm pretty sure I have a problem understanding the article, but I'm also very happy if somebody can explain what I'm missinterpreting ;)

                  B Offline
                  B Offline
                  BernardIE5317
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #20

                  my understanding is that a system at any particular moment is in a state . a single state . of course a system can not be in more than one state at any moment unless of course we are discussing Quantum Mechanics which of course we are not i presume . if it is known the system can be in any state of 256 possible states then at any moment only 8 bits are required to specify that state . QED

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                  • 0 0x01AA

                    I have to use up the unused vacation for 2023. I usually use this as an opportunity to do a little further training. At the end of this year 2023, I have decided to finally understand the term entropy in information technology to the end. But I fail once again:( All I can confirm so far is the statement of 'John von Neumann' (John von Neumann - Wikipedia[^]) to Claude Shannon - Wikipedia[^] : “You should call it entropy. […] Nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate “You will always have the advantage.” :sigh: :laugh: [Edit] Btw. any idea which forum here is ok to ask questions about that theme? [Edit1] Now I think it becomes out of 'lounge'disussion, sorry for that. Still I'm looking for a place where one can disuss that. I'm pretty shure that @KornfeldEliyahuPeter can help me of this ;)

                    B Offline
                    B Offline
                    BernardIE5317
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #21

                    video below gives a nice explanation of entropy in information theory . Information entropy | Journey into information theory | Computer Science | Khan Academy - YouTube[^]

                    0 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • B BernardIE5317

                      my understanding is that a system at any particular moment is in a state . a single state . of course a system can not be in more than one state at any moment unless of course we are discussing Quantum Mechanics which of course we are not i presume . if it is known the system can be in any state of 256 possible states then at any moment only 8 bits are required to specify that state . QED

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                      0x01AA
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #22

                      Thank you very much!

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • B BernardIE5317

                        video below gives a nice explanation of entropy in information theory . Information entropy | Journey into information theory | Computer Science | Khan Academy - YouTube[^]

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                        0 Offline
                        0x01AA
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #23

                        Thank you!

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • B BobbyStrain

                          [4.6 Entropy - University Physics Volume 2 | OpenStax](https://openstax.org/books/university-physics-volume-2/pages/4-6-entropy)

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                          0x01AA
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #24

                          Thank you!

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • 0 0x01AA

                            I have to use up the unused vacation for 2023. I usually use this as an opportunity to do a little further training. At the end of this year 2023, I have decided to finally understand the term entropy in information technology to the end. But I fail once again:( All I can confirm so far is the statement of 'John von Neumann' (John von Neumann - Wikipedia[^]) to Claude Shannon - Wikipedia[^] : “You should call it entropy. […] Nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate “You will always have the advantage.” :sigh: :laugh: [Edit] Btw. any idea which forum here is ok to ask questions about that theme? [Edit1] Now I think it becomes out of 'lounge'disussion, sorry for that. Still I'm looking for a place where one can disuss that. I'm pretty shure that @KornfeldEliyahuPeter can help me of this ;)

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                            D Offline
                            Daniel Pfeffer
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #25

                            Entropy is an attempt to give a macroscopic number that describes a large number of microscopic states. Taking the "classic" deck of cards, there is only 1 way of arranging the cards in suit order (Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts, Spades) in increasing order in each suit (2, 3, ..., J, Q, K, A). We take the log of the number of states, and the entropy is 0. If the suits can be in any order, we have 4! possibilities, with an entropy of log(4!). If the cards are in the order red-black-red-black, we have 26! * 26! possibilities, with an entropy of 2*log(26!). If the cards can be in any order, we have 52! possibilities, with an entropy of log(52!). This is also the maximum entropy for the card system. Each of the different ways to arrange the cards in the above examples is called a "micro-state". In physics/chemistry we usually multiply the entropy calculated above by Bolzman's constant, to fit it in with other units such as temperature, energy, etc. The connection to information theory comes from the fact that the lower the entropy of the system, the easier it is to predict the next card.

                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

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                            • D Daniel Pfeffer

                              Entropy is an attempt to give a macroscopic number that describes a large number of microscopic states. Taking the "classic" deck of cards, there is only 1 way of arranging the cards in suit order (Clubs, Diamonds, Hearts, Spades) in increasing order in each suit (2, 3, ..., J, Q, K, A). We take the log of the number of states, and the entropy is 0. If the suits can be in any order, we have 4! possibilities, with an entropy of log(4!). If the cards are in the order red-black-red-black, we have 26! * 26! possibilities, with an entropy of 2*log(26!). If the cards can be in any order, we have 52! possibilities, with an entropy of log(52!). This is also the maximum entropy for the card system. Each of the different ways to arrange the cards in the above examples is called a "micro-state". In physics/chemistry we usually multiply the entropy calculated above by Bolzman's constant, to fit it in with other units such as temperature, energy, etc. The connection to information theory comes from the fact that the lower the entropy of the system, the easier it is to predict the next card.

                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

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                              0x01AA
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #26

                              Thank you very much for your answer. I will go through the card deck example and hope I will understand it in detail. Anyway statements like

                              Quote:

                              Entropy is an attempt to give a macroscopic number that describes a large number of macroscopic states.

                              makes it hard to understand. What exactly 'macroscopic' and 'macroscopic' means....

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                              • 0 0x01AA

                                Thank you very much for your answer. I will go through the card deck example and hope I will understand it in detail. Anyway statements like

                                Quote:

                                Entropy is an attempt to give a macroscopic number that describes a large number of macroscopic states.

                                makes it hard to understand. What exactly 'macroscopic' and 'macroscopic' means....

                                D Offline
                                D Offline
                                Daniel Pfeffer
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #27

                                The second 'macroscopic' should have been '_micro_scopic'. :-O Corrected in the original.

                                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                0 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • D Daniel Pfeffer

                                  The second 'macroscopic' should have been '_micro_scopic'. :-O Corrected in the original.

                                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                  0 Offline
                                  0 Offline
                                  0x01AA
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #28

                                  Wait wait. Looks more I cited it wrong? This chaos therory let me end in chaos :laugh:

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                                  • G Gary Stachelski 2021

                                    In the case of the video, the probabilities were made up to create two different machines. They then went on to illustrate how you could calculate the information entropy for each machine to compare them. The machine with the lower calculated entropy was more predictable Or better organized. The higher the calculated entropy the more disorganized a system is, so it is harder to predict what the output of the next cycle will be.

                                    J Offline
                                    J Offline
                                    jochance
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #29

                                    Mmmm cyclomatic complexity... keep going, we can cut my heating costs.

                                    G 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • B BernardIE5317

                                      my understanding is that a system at any particular moment is in a state . a single state . of course a system can not be in more than one state at any moment unless of course we are discussing Quantum Mechanics which of course we are not i presume . if it is known the system can be in any state of 256 possible states then at any moment only 8 bits are required to specify that state . QED

                                      J Offline
                                      J Offline
                                      jochance
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #30

                                      A visualization is literally 256 light switches side by side. Each switch represents logical branching in the code. appStates is an array of bool... if (appStates[34] and appStates[42]) ....

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                                      • J jochance

                                        Mmmm cyclomatic complexity... keep going, we can cut my heating costs.

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                                        G Offline
                                        Gary Stachelski 2021
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #31

                                        You make an excellent observation. Like measurements of Entropy, Lower Cyclomatic complexity programs are more stable (better organization), their behavior is more predictable and you have a higher confidence in predicting their processing results. In both cases lower is better. Thanks, did not see the connection.

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                                        • G Gary Stachelski 2021

                                          You make an excellent observation. Like measurements of Entropy, Lower Cyclomatic complexity programs are more stable (better organization), their behavior is more predictable and you have a higher confidence in predicting their processing results. In both cases lower is better. Thanks, did not see the connection.

                                          J Offline
                                          J Offline
                                          jochance
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #32

                                          :D I uhhh... have to go overboard with how not serious I take myself sometimes.

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