Why I don't use python
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honey the codewitch wrote:
What a mess
Have you ever tried SmallTalk? And really Python is not that difficult once you get used to its rules; it's just a bit different than some other languages.
I've seen SmallTalk - i think maybe in the late 80s early 90s? Been so long i don't even remember. Never tried it myself. I'm biased against languages that pretend to be something they're not. I know it's silly of me, but JS and Python with their ersatz OOP (that's not OOP) just leave me with a bad taste in my mouth. I dislike it I think for the same reasons I dislike Turkey-Bacon. Turkey is fine. Bacon is fine. Everything would be fine if they'd just stay in their lane. :~ Objects are fine. Associative arrays are fine. Associative arrays are not objects no matter how many functors you put into them.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I've seen SmallTalk - i think maybe in the late 80s early 90s? Been so long i don't even remember. Never tried it myself. I'm biased against languages that pretend to be something they're not. I know it's silly of me, but JS and Python with their ersatz OOP (that's not OOP) just leave me with a bad taste in my mouth. I dislike it I think for the same reasons I dislike Turkey-Bacon. Turkey is fine. Bacon is fine. Everything would be fine if they'd just stay in their lane. :~ Objects are fine. Associative arrays are fine. Associative arrays are not objects no matter how many functors you put into them.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
This sounds like me ranting that 'invite' is a verb not a noun, and 'alternate' means to switch from one option to another, and is not an alterative. Damn kids these days...
cheers Chris Maunder
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I don't use Python because it solves no problems that I can't solve better with other tools.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Putting my "your programming language wears army shorts", or "Scripting programs aren't programming languages". Biases aside, I think it can come in handy for one off stuff and quick and dirty test stuff. I am working with some IoT devices that send data to a metered service (cloud). For testing/enhancing (can you say debug?) :) I found a quick and dirty script for a python syslog server (yes I have a C## version but it does a bunch of parsing) that just prints what it receives.
import socketserver
class MyUDPHandler(socketserver.BaseRequestHandler):
def handle(self):
print(self.request[0].decode())
with socketserver.UDPServer(('10.0.2.4', 514), MyUDPHandler) as server:
server.serve_forever()gets: The temperature in Fahrenheit is:77.9 166 The temperature in Celsius is:25.5 But then, I am the lazy old fool. Edit: I can run it on my Pi (just got a 5!)
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
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Putting my "your programming language wears army shorts", or "Scripting programs aren't programming languages". Biases aside, I think it can come in handy for one off stuff and quick and dirty test stuff. I am working with some IoT devices that send data to a metered service (cloud). For testing/enhancing (can you say debug?) :) I found a quick and dirty script for a python syslog server (yes I have a C## version but it does a bunch of parsing) that just prints what it receives.
import socketserver
class MyUDPHandler(socketserver.BaseRequestHandler):
def handle(self):
print(self.request[0].decode())
with socketserver.UDPServer(('10.0.2.4', 514), MyUDPHandler) as server:
server.serve_forever()gets: The temperature in Fahrenheit is:77.9 166 The temperature in Celsius is:25.5 But then, I am the lazy old fool. Edit: I can run it on my Pi (just got a 5!)
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
Not really that much harder to do on an ESP32 under Arduino. And it's $12 w/ a screen included.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Not really that much harder to do on an ESP32 under Arduino. And it's $12 w/ a screen included.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
easy is one of my favorite 4 letter words. Comes right after the 4 letter word that starts with an F.... Free. :)
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
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Putting my "your programming language wears army shorts", or "Scripting programs aren't programming languages". Biases aside, I think it can come in handy for one off stuff and quick and dirty test stuff. I am working with some IoT devices that send data to a metered service (cloud). For testing/enhancing (can you say debug?) :) I found a quick and dirty script for a python syslog server (yes I have a C## version but it does a bunch of parsing) that just prints what it receives.
import socketserver
class MyUDPHandler(socketserver.BaseRequestHandler):
def handle(self):
print(self.request[0].decode())
with socketserver.UDPServer(('10.0.2.4', 514), MyUDPHandler) as server:
server.serve_forever()gets: The temperature in Fahrenheit is:77.9 166 The temperature in Celsius is:25.5 But then, I am the lazy old fool. Edit: I can run it on my Pi (just got a 5!)
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
I didn't say that Python is useless; I said that I have no use for it.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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I didn't say that Python is useless; I said that I have no use for it.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Well, I never thought you said that. Seems to me that, on this forum, the washed like to pile on the unwashed. Back to lurking.
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
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easy is one of my favorite 4 letter words. Comes right after the 4 letter word that starts with an F.... Free. :)
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
Well, to be clear I'm not saying it's either easy or free. But Arduino does lower the bar for entry into C++ development significantly, even if it's not the best code. Frankly, RPis are a bit heavy handed, and are priced to match. It's a whole lot more machine than you need for most IoT purposes, and I tend to think of them more as a mini PC than an IoT widget. The ESP32 has wifi and bluetooth built in, and can do most anything with sensors and such you can do with an RPi, sometimes better, because it's realtime, but without the $100+ price tag, the power consumption, the size, the desk space requirements while coding it, etc.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Well, I never thought you said that. Seems to me that, on this forum, the washed like to pile on the unwashed. Back to lurking.
>64 There is never enough time to do it right, but there is enough time to do it over.
theoldfool wrote:
the washed like to pile on the unwashed.
I apologize for my misunderstanding.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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I've seen SmallTalk - i think maybe in the late 80s early 90s? Been so long i don't even remember. Never tried it myself. I'm biased against languages that pretend to be something they're not. I know it's silly of me, but JS and Python with their ersatz OOP (that's not OOP) just leave me with a bad taste in my mouth. I dislike it I think for the same reasons I dislike Turkey-Bacon. Turkey is fine. Bacon is fine. Everything would be fine if they'd just stay in their lane. :~ Objects are fine. Associative arrays are fine. Associative arrays are not objects no matter how many functors you put into them.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
I think you seem a bit impatient with Python. I find it useful for small quick things. For example string processing or web-scraping. And I do not give a toss whether they call it "object-oriented" or not. Lets call it stuff-oriented or whatevva. However, on the OO topic... We who are firmly rooted in C++ have a rather strict definition of OO. There are other ways of looking at the term. I warmly recommend this article on the history of OOP (or "OOP"!). The grandfather of the term, Alan Kay, has said among other things: “I made up the term ‘object-oriented’, and I can tell you I didn’t have C++ in mind.” “I’m sorry that I long ago coined the term “objects” for this topic because it gets many people to focus on the lesser idea. The big idea is messaging.” https://medium.com/javascript-scene/the-forgotten-history-of-oop[^]
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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I think you seem a bit impatient with Python. I find it useful for small quick things. For example string processing or web-scraping. And I do not give a toss whether they call it "object-oriented" or not. Lets call it stuff-oriented or whatevva. However, on the OO topic... We who are firmly rooted in C++ have a rather strict definition of OO. There are other ways of looking at the term. I warmly recommend this article on the history of OOP (or "OOP"!). The grandfather of the term, Alan Kay, has said among other things: “I made up the term ‘object-oriented’, and I can tell you I didn’t have C++ in mind.” “I’m sorry that I long ago coined the term “objects” for this topic because it gets many people to focus on the lesser idea. The big idea is messaging.” https://medium.com/javascript-scene/the-forgotten-history-of-oop[^]
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
I'm happy with C#'s conception of objects, and even Java's What I don't like is ersatz objects that are effectively just hashtables keyed by the name of the member. That sort of construct doesn't fulfill all kinds of object oriented necessities like polymorphism - not that you can't MAKE that work in a language like that, it's just not pretty. It strikes me as Broken As Designed.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I'm happy with C#'s conception of objects, and even Java's What I don't like is ersatz objects that are effectively just hashtables keyed by the name of the member. That sort of construct doesn't fulfill all kinds of object oriented necessities like polymorphism - not that you can't MAKE that work in a language like that, it's just not pretty. It strikes me as Broken As Designed.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
I agree 100% that Python is not elegant from a pure CS point of view. But it is much more concise than C++ and cousins. You have to scroll less (!). We have discussed the benefit of non-scrolling (vs our old brains) in C-code before. And it does have amazing libraries. I just does the job for small programs. Beyond a few thousand lines, it becomes a nightmare to maintain, mostly due to its total lack of type-safety. :cool:
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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I agree 100% that Python is not elegant from a pure CS point of view. But it is much more concise than C++ and cousins. You have to scroll less (!). We have discussed the benefit of non-scrolling (vs our old brains) in C-code before. And it does have amazing libraries. I just does the job for small programs. Beyond a few thousand lines, it becomes a nightmare to maintain, mostly due to its total lack of type-safety. :cool:
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
I've discovered a whole new reason to love C# and that is source generators. But also, I've now gotten to the point where my C# CLI apps are as short and succinct as anything similar in python, through the magic of metadata and some code I wrote. Complete with using screens, defaults, etc. I wrote something to parse a C header file and extract relevant information. From conception to testing to delivery in two hours, about a page and a half of C# code. Frankly, I agree with Mr. Pfeifer below. I don't need Python, I've got solid tools as it is. And no goddammned signficant whitespace!** ** funny thing about that. I actually use minimization in my .NET projects[^] I do it as part of an alternative to static linking which isn't really available with C#. To save space (sometimes a meg of whitespace!), and to deliberately obscure these files and prevent me from modifying them - rather than modifying the source that they are generated from. I've gotten out of sync before. This keeps me honest. Python can't do that. In fact, python makes code generation itself a royal pain because of the pigheaded insistence of imposing indents on you.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I've discovered a whole new reason to love C# and that is source generators. But also, I've now gotten to the point where my C# CLI apps are as short and succinct as anything similar in python, through the magic of metadata and some code I wrote. Complete with using screens, defaults, etc. I wrote something to parse a C header file and extract relevant information. From conception to testing to delivery in two hours, about a page and a half of C# code. Frankly, I agree with Mr. Pfeifer below. I don't need Python, I've got solid tools as it is. And no goddammned signficant whitespace!** ** funny thing about that. I actually use minimization in my .NET projects[^] I do it as part of an alternative to static linking which isn't really available with C#. To save space (sometimes a meg of whitespace!), and to deliberately obscure these files and prevent me from modifying them - rather than modifying the source that they are generated from. I've gotten out of sync before. This keeps me honest. Python can't do that. In fact, python makes code generation itself a royal pain because of the pigheaded insistence of imposing indents on you.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Nice project! It is not within my aforementioned category of Python-suitable challenges ["small quick things"]. Peace.
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
It's not but for those I have my Program.Base code which makes writing say, a CLI app to wordwrap input files into an output file this easy:
using System;
using System.Collections.Generic;
using System.IO;
internal partial class Program
{
[CmdArg(Ordinal = 0)] // the description and itemname are filled
static List Inputs = new List() { Console.In };
[CmdArg(Name = "output")] // the description and itemname are filled
static TextWriter Output = Console.Out;
[CmdArg(Name = "width", Description = "The width to wrap. Defaults based on console window size", ItemName = "columns")]
static int Width = (int)Math.Floor((double)Console.WindowWidth / 1.5);
[CmdArg(Name = "ifstale", Description = "Skip if the input file is older than the output file")]
static bool IfStale = false;
static void Run()
{
if (!IfStale || IsStale(Inputs, Output))
{
foreach (var input in Inputs)
{
// do this because stdin requires it
string line;
while((line = input.ReadLine()) != null)
{
Output.WriteLine(WordWrap(line, Width));
}
}
} else
{
Console.Error.WriteLine("Skipped execution because the inputs did not change");
}
}
}That parses arguments, presents a using screen, all of that mess. This is how i do "quick things."
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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It makes me feel like a crotchety old English teacher.
def receive_message(self, client, client_address)
Yields "'function' object has no attribute 'receive_message' And my first thought does not go to the code, but to the inanity of the error message. 1. Attributes are metadata. A function doesn't have attributes unless it's marked up. it has a signature, access modifies and storage class indicators. 2. Functions are not "objects". Functions are functions. A function as an object is called a "functor" 3. Am I really fisking a python error message right now? And by then I've completely given up on the issue.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
Because the author of the Open Source program I want to modify chose to write it in Python!
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It makes me feel like a crotchety old English teacher.
def receive_message(self, client, client_address)
Yields "'function' object has no attribute 'receive_message' And my first thought does not go to the code, but to the inanity of the error message. 1. Attributes are metadata. A function doesn't have attributes unless it's marked up. it has a signature, access modifies and storage class indicators. 2. Functions are not "objects". Functions are functions. A function as an object is called a "functor" 3. Am I really fisking a python error message right now? And by then I've completely given up on the issue.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
Was talking with a friend who leans more network engineer than programmer. They had some programming courses in college. I'm hoping I convinced them that C#/Powershell are far more useful things to focus on than Python unless they want to shift gears and be a data scientist. They asked if I thought Python as a first language was a hindrance. I think most absolutely so.
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Was talking with a friend who leans more network engineer than programmer. They had some programming courses in college. I'm hoping I convinced them that C#/Powershell are far more useful things to focus on than Python unless they want to shift gears and be a data scientist. They asked if I thought Python as a first language was a hindrance. I think most absolutely so.
I agree that it is, since it's mostly just glue, and does so much for you, or via external libraries that too much is black boxed. Sure you can resize an image, but do you know what it's actually doing? I used to say C# was the way to go. Now, after watching people who aren't programmers pick and up and begin to program with something, I'm suggesting people go buy an ESP32, and start coding on that with Arduino. It will teach you enough C++ to be dangerous, and honestly? They're fun enough to keep you motivated even with the struggles. It won't teach you best practices, but I've seen more non-coder engineers go this route and be successful than i can count.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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It makes me feel like a crotchety old English teacher.
def receive_message(self, client, client_address)
Yields "'function' object has no attribute 'receive_message' And my first thought does not go to the code, but to the inanity of the error message. 1. Attributes are metadata. A function doesn't have attributes unless it's marked up. it has a signature, access modifies and storage class indicators. 2. Functions are not "objects". Functions are functions. A function as an object is called a "functor" 3. Am I really fisking a python error message right now? And by then I've completely given up on the issue.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I have very little experience with python, but just enough to ask? Did you declare this inside the scope of an object? Did you indent the def? It looks like it does not know where to bind the function to be an attribute of a class?
It was someone else's code I was trying to help them with and honestly I don't remember now. The point of my post was the error message is cryptic to the point of ridiculous because they've decided on adopting their own lexicon for describing programming constructs.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix