How to tell a pro from a n00b... a guide.
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Junior, learning the basics. Usually self-aware enough to realize they're new. Can offer new and fresh perspectives, which is great, but also accepts things may or may not be able to happen if the voice of experience chimes in. Usually energetic and eager to learn while accepting their lack of knowledge. Reminds the seniors they're old and crusty. Mid-level, knows just enough to argue about everything, while missing the big picture or understanding the whys or history. They're never wrong... in their minds. They usually cannot communicate well, as it's one-sided and self-serving. All of them think they are seniors when they're not. Maybe been developing for 5-10 years and think they've mastered tech. Maybe they'll attempt to be communicative by virtue of "bruh, dis suckz" or maybe they'll sit in the corner and never speak a soul, until someone comes to get them. Usually reactive though. Don't understand why non-nerds in real life avoid them, but gee golly they act cool online. They can help hire coders, but usually have to look up interview questions online because they can't figure out how much someone knows since they're just scratching the surface of their own knowledge. Some are really smart. Some think they are. Senior, someone who's actually seen it all. Was coding and arguing online before the Web came out, but over time learned the soft skills and respect required to speak to real humans. Tired of the nonsense, wants to go fishing instead. Has a fond appreciation for the why and abstract concepts. Can pick up things quickly because they understand the core comp sci principles. Knows the future of tech over the next couple of decades at least. And most importantly, can communicate well. Has a certain level of maturity. Isn't afraid to be honest to the business. Never delivers false expectations, but is self-sufficient enough to get things done proactively. Can usually sum up people's tech skills in 5 mins and aren't fooled by people who Google crap and pretend to know something. They speak in abstract concepts more often than not. Everyone falls somewhere on that spectrum, and 9/10 mids thinks they're a senior. And someone can be stuck in mid for decades even. You're welcome.
Jeremy Falcon
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This reminds me of a great quote.
Shunryu Suzuki
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
The quote itself alludes to the paradox: 1) Beginners are unsettled on one answer and this _may_ lead to creativity and innovation. However, it _may_ lead to terrible destruction and failure also! (Ex. "Let's try building a bridge, which will carry vehicles across the water, made entirely from pasta." :laugh: ) 2) Experts are settled on an answer (built from experience) and _may_ very likely lead to success. However, it _may_ lead to missing out on innovation and new things being created! (Ex. "People have always used candles to light up dark rooms and this electricity idea will never last. Lightbulbs indeed!" :laugh: ) Paradox!! :confused: I'm also not even sure which person (beginner or expert) the the quote was originally intended to redirect. 1) Was it meant to tell experts that they should be more open? 2) Or, was it meant to tell beginners that they should quiet their minds and do the one thing that solves the issue by following the path that experts have given them? It's a great quote!
My father, who was a physician, used to say that only an intern’s diagnosis is certain. All the rest have doubts.
Mircea
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My father, who was a physician, used to say that only an intern’s diagnosis is certain. All the rest have doubts.
Mircea
Mircea Neacsu wrote:
My father, who was a physician, used to say that only an intern’s diagnosis is certain. All the rest have doubts.
Fantastic quote! I wonder if your father made that up himself or he based it upon this quote? I know that great minds often think in similar terms so it is very likely your father made up his quote. Here's the quote I've heard before:
Robert Anton Wilson:
Only the madman is absolutely sure.
I've always liked that quote because it has helped me question myself when "I'm absolutely positive!!" :rolleyes:
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This reminds me of a great quote.
Shunryu Suzuki
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
The quote itself alludes to the paradox: 1) Beginners are unsettled on one answer and this _may_ lead to creativity and innovation. However, it _may_ lead to terrible destruction and failure also! (Ex. "Let's try building a bridge, which will carry vehicles across the water, made entirely from pasta." :laugh: ) 2) Experts are settled on an answer (built from experience) and _may_ very likely lead to success. However, it _may_ lead to missing out on innovation and new things being created! (Ex. "People have always used candles to light up dark rooms and this electricity idea will never last. Lightbulbs indeed!" :laugh: ) Paradox!! :confused: I'm also not even sure which person (beginner or expert) the the quote was originally intended to redirect. 1) Was it meant to tell experts that they should be more open? 2) Or, was it meant to tell beginners that they should quiet their minds and do the one thing that solves the issue by following the path that experts have given them? It's a great quote!
raddevus wrote:
This reminds me of a great quote
That's a great quote man. Something of a similar vein I've always said is, "There as two types of people who don't listen, a fool and a genius." Not gonna derail, but just noting another, similar paradox.
raddevus wrote:
Paradox!!
Yeah man. Life is not without a sense of wonder ya know. The thing is, we need both. Take the senior side for instance. Let's say he/she is right 9/10 times because they've seen it all. And take the beginner side, let's say they're wrong 9/10 times because they haven't. There's still that 1/10 and that's called change. It's a cool paradox. IMO, the only problem that arises from it, is when people use that 1/10 to overestimate things. Like, assuming the senior is a fool because of it or that the beginner is the wisest of all creations, etc. To compound the problem, since self-awareness is in short supply, a lot of people mistake time as being the only metric required. It's one of them, but not the only one. They say one of the hardest things is to achieve success. That's not true; people do it all the time. One of the hardest things is to achieve success and not let it go to your head, ya know.
raddevus wrote:
I'm also not even sure which person (beginner or expert) the the quote was originally intended to redirect.
Me not know either. :~
raddevus wrote:
- Was it meant to tell experts that they should be more open? 2) Or, was it meant to tell beginners that they should quiet their minds and do the one thing that solves the issue which by following the path that experts have given them?
Not sure, but a common denominator between the two is understanding both can be wrong and both should listen.
raddevus wrote:
It's a great quote!
:thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
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Mircea Neacsu wrote:
My father, who was a physician, used to say that only an intern’s diagnosis is certain. All the rest have doubts.
Fantastic quote! I wonder if your father made that up himself or he based it upon this quote? I know that great minds often think in similar terms so it is very likely your father made up his quote. Here's the quote I've heard before:
Robert Anton Wilson:
Only the madman is absolutely sure.
I've always liked that quote because it has helped me question myself when "I'm absolutely positive!!" :rolleyes:
raddevus wrote:
I wonder if your father made that up himself
I don't know and, unfortunately, it's too late too find out :sad smile: He was mostly referring to lack of experience/knowledge that makes one see only a few possibilities. Something along the lines of "to the one with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". :)
Mircea
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Definitely in the "Senior" category. My BS detector is finely tuned and triggered on a regular basis at my last company but not at the non-profit I currently work for.
Preach brother. Finding great coworkers is not an easy task. Much like finding a good relationship.
Jeremy Falcon
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Now, I'm a Junior/Mid Level- Senior. Still have to learn new techniques which let me feel as a junior ;P ;)
Speaking of paradoxes, saying you're a junior makes you more "seniory". :laugh: We should be learning crap all the time though. I know for me, eventually I want to learn some Rust and WebGPU. It has to wait until after a project of mine. Could be a year or two from now. But, we should never stop learning.
Jeremy Falcon
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raddevus wrote:
I wonder if your father made that up himself
I don't know and, unfortunately, it's too late too find out :sad smile: He was mostly referring to lack of experience/knowledge that makes one see only a few possibilities. Something along the lines of "to the one with a hammer, everything looks like a nail". :)
Mircea
Mircea Neacsu wrote:
I don't know and, unfortunately, it's too late too find out
Sorry to hear that man. My father has passed too. I never had a great kinship with mine, but can only imagine the anguish of losing a father close to you.
Mircea Neacsu wrote:
Something along the lines of "to the one with a hammer, everything looks like a nail".
:thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
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Junior, learning the basics. Usually self-aware enough to realize they're new. Can offer new and fresh perspectives, which is great, but also accepts things may or may not be able to happen if the voice of experience chimes in. Usually energetic and eager to learn while accepting their lack of knowledge. Reminds the seniors they're old and crusty. Mid-level, knows just enough to argue about everything, while missing the big picture or understanding the whys or history. They're never wrong... in their minds. They usually cannot communicate well, as it's one-sided and self-serving. All of them think they are seniors when they're not. Maybe been developing for 5-10 years and think they've mastered tech. Maybe they'll attempt to be communicative by virtue of "bruh, dis suckz" or maybe they'll sit in the corner and never speak a soul, until someone comes to get them. Usually reactive though. Don't understand why non-nerds in real life avoid them, but gee golly they act cool online. They can help hire coders, but usually have to look up interview questions online because they can't figure out how much someone knows since they're just scratching the surface of their own knowledge. Some are really smart. Some think they are. Senior, someone who's actually seen it all. Was coding and arguing online before the Web came out, but over time learned the soft skills and respect required to speak to real humans. Tired of the nonsense, wants to go fishing instead. Has a fond appreciation for the why and abstract concepts. Can pick up things quickly because they understand the core comp sci principles. Knows the future of tech over the next couple of decades at least. And most importantly, can communicate well. Has a certain level of maturity. Isn't afraid to be honest to the business. Never delivers false expectations, but is self-sufficient enough to get things done proactively. Can usually sum up people's tech skills in 5 mins and aren't fooled by people who Google crap and pretend to know something. They speak in abstract concepts more often than not. Everyone falls somewhere on that spectrum, and 9/10 mids thinks they're a senior. And someone can be stuck in mid for decades even. You're welcome.
Jeremy Falcon
Had heard from one of my managers: It takes 10 years to get 10 year experience. There's no fast track.
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raddevus wrote:
This reminds me of a great quote
That's a great quote man. Something of a similar vein I've always said is, "There as two types of people who don't listen, a fool and a genius." Not gonna derail, but just noting another, similar paradox.
raddevus wrote:
Paradox!!
Yeah man. Life is not without a sense of wonder ya know. The thing is, we need both. Take the senior side for instance. Let's say he/she is right 9/10 times because they've seen it all. And take the beginner side, let's say they're wrong 9/10 times because they haven't. There's still that 1/10 and that's called change. It's a cool paradox. IMO, the only problem that arises from it, is when people use that 1/10 to overestimate things. Like, assuming the senior is a fool because of it or that the beginner is the wisest of all creations, etc. To compound the problem, since self-awareness is in short supply, a lot of people mistake time as being the only metric required. It's one of them, but not the only one. They say one of the hardest things is to achieve success. That's not true; people do it all the time. One of the hardest things is to achieve success and not let it go to your head, ya know.
raddevus wrote:
I'm also not even sure which person (beginner or expert) the the quote was originally intended to redirect.
Me not know either. :~
raddevus wrote:
- Was it meant to tell experts that they should be more open? 2) Or, was it meant to tell beginners that they should quiet their minds and do the one thing that solves the issue which by following the path that experts have given them?
Not sure, but a common denominator between the two is understanding both can be wrong and both should listen.
raddevus wrote:
It's a great quote!
:thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
he thing is, we need both. Take the senior side for instance. Let's say he/she is right 9/10 times because they've seen it all. And take the beginner side, let's say they're wrong 9/10 times because they haven't. There's still that 1/10 and that's called change.
Didn't think of it like this, really good point.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
They say one of the hardest things is to achieve success. That's not true; people do it all the time. One of the hardest things is to achieve success and not let it go to your head, ya know.
totally agree
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I've always said is, "There as two types of people who don't listen, a fool and a genius."
Not to forget the deaf ;) :laugh: Is it your quote? or did you hear it somewhere first?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Speaking of paradoxes, saying you're a junior makes you more "seniory". :laugh: We should be learning crap all the time though. I know for me, eventually I want to learn some Rust and WebGPU. It has to wait until after a project of mine. Could be a year or two from now. But, we should never stop learning.
Jeremy Falcon
Another good quote: "the only wasted day is the day in which you learn nothing"
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Had heard from one of my managers: It takes 10 years to get 10 year experience. There's no fast track.
Amarnath S wrote:
It takes at least 10 years to get 10 year experience. There's no fast track.
FTFY There sadly is a lot of people who are 20 years in business and still have less than 5 years experience in it. :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Another good quote: "the only wasted day is the day in which you learn nothing"
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Noice
Jeremy Falcon
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Had heard from one of my managers: It takes 10 years to get 10 year experience. There's no fast track.
That makes sense. :-D
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
he thing is, we need both. Take the senior side for instance. Let's say he/she is right 9/10 times because they've seen it all. And take the beginner side, let's say they're wrong 9/10 times because they haven't. There's still that 1/10 and that's called change.
Didn't think of it like this, really good point.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
They say one of the hardest things is to achieve success. That's not true; people do it all the time. One of the hardest things is to achieve success and not let it go to your head, ya know.
totally agree
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I've always said is, "There as two types of people who don't listen, a fool and a genius."
Not to forget the deaf ;) :laugh: Is it your quote? or did you hear it somewhere first?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
Is it your quote? or did you hear it somewhere first?
It's mine. There's another tangential quote though that isn't mine... "It takes a genius to recognize a genius." But de udder one is a Jeremy original.
Jeremy Falcon
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raddevus wrote:
This reminds me of a great quote
That's a great quote man. Something of a similar vein I've always said is, "There as two types of people who don't listen, a fool and a genius." Not gonna derail, but just noting another, similar paradox.
raddevus wrote:
Paradox!!
Yeah man. Life is not without a sense of wonder ya know. The thing is, we need both. Take the senior side for instance. Let's say he/she is right 9/10 times because they've seen it all. And take the beginner side, let's say they're wrong 9/10 times because they haven't. There's still that 1/10 and that's called change. It's a cool paradox. IMO, the only problem that arises from it, is when people use that 1/10 to overestimate things. Like, assuming the senior is a fool because of it or that the beginner is the wisest of all creations, etc. To compound the problem, since self-awareness is in short supply, a lot of people mistake time as being the only metric required. It's one of them, but not the only one. They say one of the hardest things is to achieve success. That's not true; people do it all the time. One of the hardest things is to achieve success and not let it go to your head, ya know.
raddevus wrote:
I'm also not even sure which person (beginner or expert) the the quote was originally intended to redirect.
Me not know either. :~
raddevus wrote:
- Was it meant to tell experts that they should be more open? 2) Or, was it meant to tell beginners that they should quiet their minds and do the one thing that solves the issue which by following the path that experts have given them?
Not sure, but a common denominator between the two is understanding both can be wrong and both should listen.
raddevus wrote:
It's a great quote!
:thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Take the senior side for instance. Let's say he/she is right 9/10 times because they've seen it all. And take the beginner side, let's say they're wrong 9/10 times because they haven't. There's still that 1/10 and that's called change.
I'm reminded of an observation, and conclusion, that someone probably brighter than I am made: The younger among us will put forth the craziest ideas, because they have no filter, and out of that can come the greatest inventions. The older among us won't allow their imagination to run so wild, out of fear of embarrassing themselves in front of their peers. The biggest disservice you can render is to cause a younger person to stop thinking out loud. When it happens, it tends to stay that way.
I usually come down rather hard on the younger generation, but that gave me pause. In the scientific community, they do say that (and I misquote) if you haven't come up your career-defining idea by the age of 30, you probably never will.
