The term engineer - it's getting a little loose....
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Today there are so-called "engineering" students whose Bachelor's degree specialization is "Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning". Am not exactly sure whether these students will be engineers when they come out with the degree. And once this AI hullabaloo dies down, where can they be employed, employable?
Back in the early 80s (can't speak to much earlier or later since that is when I was in college) most of the major technical colleges (one of which I was attending) referred to their programming degrees as Software Engineering. Why? Most likely because there were two camps, science and engineering, and you had to be in one or the other. The Computer Science side, which included both hardware and software, was much more abstract and theoretical and, at the time, tended not to produce people doing the actual work. The disappearance of SE degrees in favor of CS degrees and the "developer" moniker came later as programming degrees proliferated. Probably because the other engineering programs derided software engineering as a degree for people who couldn't hack being "real" engineers so both sides felt the need for an amicable divorce. Given what started happening at that time, I'm sure many of those newly minted SE's were crying all the way to the bank a few short years later.
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It happened a LOT in the UK in the late 80's to mid 90's but back then it wasn't "engineer" that was the thing it was "technician". I was a Computer Kid of the 1980's UK, Grew up with home computers that where primitive by todays standards, Sinclair ZX80/81, Commodore C16+4, Vic 20 and eventually onto the Acorn Machines, BBC B et al. Since the age of 7 I've had an aptitude for this kind of stuff, and by the time I got to the later years in my Secondary School, I was effectively teaching the teachers on what the computers they had in the classrooms could do, so they could in turn be better informed what they where "reading from textbooks" to teach others. As the 90's approached, the MS-DOS PC started to appear in UK homes, and it was a natural fit for me to want to become a "Computer Technician" at the time. I left school and did my various BTEC's etc before spending a few years in the UK military doing communications stuff. When I left the forces in late 1993, I came back to a world where EVERYONE was obsessed by being a "Technician" of some kind, this was bizarre to me as the very word "Technician" implies something that is "Technical" or "Technologically Related". My CV included "Technician" several times as during my BTEC years I had worked part time for a few different companies as a trainee, and companies where salivating over the word in much the same way they salivate over "AI" and such like today. Looking for a job was insane, trying to filter job listings by subjects I knew and including words like "Technician" was a thankless task, I regularly saw things like: "Wanted: local pub requires cleanliness technician to maintain pub facilities" (Basically a pub cleaner) or "Immediate Start: TV Rental's technical customer sales advisement technician" (Basically a sales person who can talk tech) It was the same then as it is now, Out of control marketing idiots allowed to get away with devaluing any word or topic they feel like, in order to push more sales. We've seen a few other terminologies come and go over the years, but now that being an "engineer" of some kind is popular, we are seeing the same thing happen to the word "engineer" and "engineering" as a disciplined profession. Don't even get me started on the HR and recruitment's use of the terminology!!!
The one that got me was "sandwich artist". Take a guess where I saw that position advertised.
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Just wanted to toss this out here and ask a question. Long before I earned my EE degree (yes, I know all about motors and other things), my dad was an EE for IBM. His favorite phrase when it was recruiting season was "I can teach an engineer how to program, I cannot teach a programmer how to engineer." Yeah, maybe a bit bigoted but work with me. This was in the late 70s early 80s, so the term "software engineer" had not been coined yet. At my university, you could get a degree in computer science but that was it. Engineers used punch cards to talk to the IBM. Those other people got to use the terminals :). So, I'm poking around on dice.com and I come across a job entry for "Senior Firewall Engineer." wtf
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
Those of us who are Navy Nucs deal with this topic a lot. The academic depth and rigor of Naval Nuclear Power School, combined with the “hands on” training in prototype, lends itself to whether we are/were “engineers”. When I worked as a control systems engineer with Barber-Colman, the PEs I associated with referred to me as an engineer, but not as a PE. They relied on me for the theoretical, analytical, and operational information related to control systems (particularly computerized ones), mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and computer systems engineering, without any criticism of me not being a PE. I never represented myself to them as PE, explained I was a Navy Nuc with 2 years of college in chemistry and physics. Usually, they were sold at "Navy Nuc". From https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/engineer engineer, noun, en.dʒɪˈnɪr 1. a person whose job is to design or build machines, engines, or electrical equipment, or things such as roads, railways, or bridges, using scientific principles: - a civil engineer - a mechanical/structural engineer - a software engineer 2. a person whose job is to repair or control machines, engines, or electrical equipment: - a computer engineer - The engineer is coming to repair our phone tomorrow morning. 3. a train driver Professional Engineer from https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe To use the PE seal, engineers must complete several steps to ensure their competency. - Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program - Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam - Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE - Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam Sticking to the actual meaning of the word “engineer”, those of us who design and build software using scientific principles are, indeed, engineers. There is a good argument to be given in the context of software, that coders are not software engineers. By being a “coder”, I do not mean a programmer who just mindlessly churns code out of some “stream of consciousness”. I mean it to primarily be one who thoughtfully writes code, uses design patterns and other “that’s how most everyone else does it” processes, rather than apply good engineering principles to develop according to a well-thought out plan that is flexible enough to accommodate changes along the way. Being a coder seems to be the most prevalent with traditional HTML/CSS/JavaScript programming where the
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The one that got me was "sandwich artist". Take a guess where I saw that position advertised.
Subway. I'm still trying to find a way to use it as some sort of greeting when I walk in, and yet remain inconspicuous about it. But there's just no way of using it without sounding as dumb as, well, it sounds. That, and the people Apple has working at their "[genius bar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius\_Bar)". Makes me wish I could bring in a defective product, and watch them make the problem worse, just so I could sarcastically say "way to go, genius"... Oh, and low-level employees that the higher-ups insist on calling "associates" so they somehow feel empowered. Wal-Mart's guilty of that. And given the type they employ, it only comes across as demeaning.
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Before I got to be a Computer Programmer, I spent four years as a Mechanical Engineer. I've never understood why "engineer" got thrown into the mix. I was happy with "programmer". And fine with "Software Developer". But no... "engineer" is a bit of a stretch. :confused: I'm with your dad on this.
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Just wanted to toss this out here and ask a question. Long before I earned my EE degree (yes, I know all about motors and other things), my dad was an EE for IBM. His favorite phrase when it was recruiting season was "I can teach an engineer how to program, I cannot teach a programmer how to engineer." Yeah, maybe a bit bigoted but work with me. This was in the late 70s early 80s, so the term "software engineer" had not been coined yet. At my university, you could get a degree in computer science but that was it. Engineers used punch cards to talk to the IBM. Those other people got to use the terminals :). So, I'm poking around on dice.com and I come across a job entry for "Senior Firewall Engineer." wtf
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
When I started working at IBM in 1979, my job title was Field Engineer. I was neither an Engineer nor a landscaper. At some point the Engineering community complained that non-Engineers were being called Engineers. IBM changed our title to Customer Service Representative. As for Firewall Engineer, I agree. What the elephant?
Cheers, Mike Fidler "I intend to live forever - so far, so good." Steven Wright "I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met." Also Steven Wright "I'm addicted to placebos. I could quit, but it wouldn't matter." Steven Wright yet again.
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I agree. What "triggered" me - in a humorous way - was the term Firewall Engineer. I'm still chuckling. I think I would lean more toward an engineer having more solid foundations in the basic sciences - physics, thermo, etc. Having said that, I have NEVER seen an engineer including myself pound out code like some of the CompSci folks I've worked with. Looking at the code witch as an example. I've worked with a few others. The code springs from their fingers, and their minds work at a level that makes me dizzy. There was a book a read long ago about Star Wars. Not the movie, but President Reagan's vision of strategic missile defense. One of the pillars of the concept was the space based X-Ray laser. This was a device that was nuclear bomb powered - you aimed the lasing rods at targets and detonated the weapon where upon the x-rays from the detonation were directed at targets. Now, there are treaties and all sorts of problems putting (more?) nuclear weapons in orbit, but the idea came from some Lawrence Livermore PhD (might have been CalTech, I forget) who had a blue sky moment. He spent the next few days pounding out simulation code to validate his idea. The concept had such potential that they piggy backed it on an upcoming nuclear weapons test. Yes, at the time the US was still detonating weapons under ground (mainly to develop the data so that designs could be confidently simulated). As I recall, the test was not successful, it was wildly successful. Anyway, I still want to know what a firewall engineer is :laugh:
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
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The one that got me was "sandwich artist". Take a guess where I saw that position advertised.
Yup, our local store had many of those positions available when the new store first opened in the town where I live. Another common name was also advertising at the time for coffee related artistry and technical based positions... I wonder how long it's going to be before we see adverts for "Burger & Fries Engineers..."
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I use the term lightly - engineer. 120v scares me, 240+ I want to pee. 480 and up? hell no. There is some spooky **** mechanical engineers do as well as civil engineers (other than making targets - google it). Then there comes chemical engineers that I salute, and nukes I just see in the distance as they glow. I have the degree for an EE. I wrote software most of my life. Sooo, when I started calling myself a sw engineer, my better half slapped me sideways - you are an EE and don't forget it. So, since then I'm an EE but I write software. Mostly embedded but I can do desktop as well. And I respect electricity. :) I still want to know wtf is a firewall engineer. I get the idea, but really?
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
charlieg wrote:
120v scares me, 240+ I want to pee. 480 and up? hell no.
LOL!!! I don't blame you for that. But since I design systems that transport power at 120V through 69kV, I've had to get used to it. But it's still strange to open a cabinet and realize that if I stand a few inches closer, an arc could form and kill me, not to mention dimming the lights for a bit.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
Unlike software engineers, electrical, mechanical, civil, aeronautical and other types of engineers work with extremely well defined specifications.
Tell me you never worked for pharmaceutical, food safety, automotive, avionics, naval, trainlines and biomedical without telling it.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
yeah, I missed this comment. I've worked in missile systems (air to air, how to have a bad day) and electronic warfare. I suppose we had specs, but all it took was for the Soviets to get creative and the current specs went out the window. I need to go fix my high tech washing machine... again....
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
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Yup, our local store had many of those positions available when the new store first opened in the town where I live. Another common name was also advertising at the time for coffee related artistry and technical based positions... I wonder how long it's going to be before we see adverts for "Burger & Fries Engineers..."
Carbohydrate and protein materials construction engineer?
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yeah, I missed this comment. I've worked in missile systems (air to air, how to have a bad day) and electronic warfare. I suppose we had specs, but all it took was for the Soviets to get creative and the current specs went out the window. I need to go fix my high tech washing machine... again....
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
Some of those are hard and not negotiable though, i.e. the warhead has to be primed after a certain clearance from the aircraft. This includes a metric ton of physics, electronics and software to work together - in my opinion every time you have to know multiple disciplines to make a software you are doing engineering. A simple push-piston eject system on a conveyor brings along a bunch of hard requirements that many "software developers" cannot approach, becasue you have to take into account mechanical delays, non uniform accelerations, blank times, shifting of items on the conveyor, synchronization between software, piston and items on the conveyor... and it's EASY, baceause usual tolerances are well above 10ms. Managing the blank times of paired mosfets in 20 Mhz modulation center-pulse to avoid 100A short circuits is... different. And it's a tiny part of a FOC algorithm.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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Carbohydrate and protein materials construction engineer?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Give them time.
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Some of those are hard and not negotiable though, i.e. the warhead has to be primed after a certain clearance from the aircraft. This includes a metric ton of physics, electronics and software to work together - in my opinion every time you have to know multiple disciplines to make a software you are doing engineering. A simple push-piston eject system on a conveyor brings along a bunch of hard requirements that many "software developers" cannot approach, becasue you have to take into account mechanical delays, non uniform accelerations, blank times, shifting of items on the conveyor, synchronization between software, piston and items on the conveyor... and it's EASY, baceause usual tolerances are well above 10ms. Managing the blank times of paired mosfets in 20 Mhz modulation center-pulse to avoid 100A short circuits is... different. And it's a tiny part of a FOC algorithm.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
Agreed. For the AIM54C, there was a minimum amount of acceleration before arming the warhead (my guess, I never saw the specs). But if the motor did not fire, then you had a very, very expensive dumb bomb.
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
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Probably a typo, "Senior Firewball Engineer". Think Gandalf.
I had some thoughts on your post. Obviously Tolkein's work inspired D&D, but I can only remember limited incidents of "magic" and that mostly to the elves.
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
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I had some thoughts on your post. Obviously Tolkein's work inspired D&D, but I can only remember limited incidents of "magic" and that mostly to the elves.
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
No one seems to know what a Senior Fireall Engineer is, so, maybe, they are elves.
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Just wanted to toss this out here and ask a question. Long before I earned my EE degree (yes, I know all about motors and other things), my dad was an EE for IBM. His favorite phrase when it was recruiting season was "I can teach an engineer how to program, I cannot teach a programmer how to engineer." Yeah, maybe a bit bigoted but work with me. This was in the late 70s early 80s, so the term "software engineer" had not been coined yet. At my university, you could get a degree in computer science but that was it. Engineers used punch cards to talk to the IBM. Those other people got to use the terminals :). So, I'm poking around on dice.com and I come across a job entry for "Senior Firewall Engineer." wtf
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
You all wanna hear something funny? My title is Associate Software Engineer. I just read this thread two days ago. About 10 minutes ago, my boss told me there is a reorg going on. My duties and salary will remain the same, but my title is changing to Developer I. SOMEONE told my bosses about this discussion!!! :laugh:
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I was advocating designing software in a way that makes it easier to extend and change, when change is warranted. Some ways of achieving this is by modularity, maintaining separation of concerns, abstraction, loose coupling and encapsulation. While following these principles won't guarantee the software we build will be easy to extend and modify, not doing any of these things will almost certainly ensure that it will be difficult to extend the software. cf: Bob Martin's story about the Sword C++ debugger. Clean Code with Uncle Bob Episode 1[^] /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
not doing any of these things will almost certainly ensure that it will be difficult to extend the software.
While doing those things poorly will make it impossible and cost more just to maintain
jschell wrote:
While doing those things poorly will make it impossible and cost more just to maintain
Doing anything poorly will make the software difficult and more costly to maintain. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Couldn't agree more - I am not even comfortable with the term "Software Engineer". "If engineers built like programmers code the first wood pecker that came along would destroy civilization." I forget who said it, but it's so true. It reminds me of peons giving themselves grander and grander titles to stroke their egos. FYI - I am a programmer, and I take offense at being called a "Software Engineer". Engineers work for a living, programmers copy paste code from StackOverflow for a living.
LordWabbit1 wrote:
"If engineers built like programmers code the first wood pecker that came along would destroy civilization."
Fallingwater. Designed by an engineer and built by his firm. Considered a masterpiece. Despite the fact that its signature feature was propped up by rigged 2x4s because the original design was flawed.