Okay I guess I'm reviving this subforum
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I don't want to talk specific policies and parties with anyone. That said, I do observe things from time to time that brush up against the political, and make me want to comment on them. Like today, a discussion on another server. a bunch of relatively privileged software professionals talking about how hard work made them successful, and it really rubbed me the wrong way. Opportunities plus work = success. Opportunities. I know several fieldworkers who came here from mexico, never had the opportunity to go to school, can't read and write, and work harder than anyone i know. Harder than I ever have, even with my 80 hour weeks at points. They aren't successful. not really their fault. they never got opportunities. I guess the blindness which translates to hubris to me and lack of empathy involved in that sentiment really gets to me, especially when they're confronted with the realities of the working poor and are dismissive of them.
Counting one's blessings involves some amount of humility and it's an important thing.
But also I grew up with union values despite being white collar so when someone tells me they got rich through hard work I ask "whose?"
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I cannot agree with you more, very well said!
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I agree with you that opportunity is every bit as important as hard work. That's what makes the west so great. But I don't buy into the oppressor/oppressed model. I don't think that the employer/employee relationship is necessarily exploitive. With proper guardrails, it's good for both parties.
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I wasn't offering comment on that, only on the importance of understanding that we don't operate in a vacuum, and those of us who are doing well would also do well to take the time to acknowledge the things we didn't have control over which brought us to where we are.
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@realJSOP I think I was pretty clear when I said "relatively privileged" and then later brought up fieldworkers.
@code-witch said in Okay I guess I'm reviving this subforum:
@realJSOP I think I was pretty clear when I said "relatively privileged" and then later brought up fieldworkers.
You specifically called out developers when you said privileged (and I for one am damn tired of hearing that term). Hard work in one vocation is completely different than hard work in another. For someone that cannot read or write, the path to "success" (however you want to define that term) is limited. It's a fact of life, and "field workers" KNOW they have to become at least somewhat educated, if for no other reason than to protect themselves from people that would take advantage of that.
It sounds to me like you think it's our responsibility (as "privileged developers") to force an education )or provide one at our expense) for people that don't have one. If they're in the country legally, an argument could be made that they should be able to avail themselves of the educational opportunities in this country.
Then you might say government assistance should be available or at the very least some sort of charitable organization should provide those opportunities, but as we have ALL seen, every time the government or a charity gets involved in providing something for those less fortunate, the process becomes corrupted and the intended recipients don't realize any benefits from said program, and the people running it are somehow making money hand-over-fist.
Does the whole situation suck? You bet. Do I sound cynical? You bet. Is there anything we can do to fix it? Not a f*ckin chance. Why? Because human nature is what it is and you can't count on the people running the show to simply "do the right thing" and be good people. And when the people in charge are corrupt, the good people leave because there's nothing they can do.
Once again, what does this have to do with "privileged developers" that work hard within their own vocation, and how can you conflate it with the plight of "field workers"?
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Actually I said "a bunch of relatively privileged software professionals", which isn't specifically calling out developers at all, much less as a whole.
It looks like you want to misrepresent me just to argue. I don't have time for that.
Furthermore. it looks like offense seeking to me. Touch grass.But I will answer your question, by quoting my original post " Opportunities plus work = success. Opportunities. I know several fieldworkers who came here from mexico, never had the opportunity to go to school, can't read and write, and work harder than anyone i know. Harder than I ever have, even with my 80 hour weeks at points. They aren't successful. not really their fault. they never got opportunities."
See?
and "Counting one's blessings involves some amount of humility and it's an important thing."
Is it really so hard to be grateful that you live in a country where you are given at least a basic education?
