Software outsourcing
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Do the math. Send all the jobs "overseas". Big big bonuses to the CEO's for saving money. Fire everyone. Then wonder where the hell the sales went, since the majority of people are now on the dole and can no longer afford ANYTHING. This is the real "trickle down" economy that the Bush II regime thinks will work with giving tax breaks to company stock. I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
Just like you buy toys made in China and apparel made in India/Pakistan/Burma..., it's same thing. Software made in India or support from India.. I know it's bad for Americans, but the bottom-line for the companies is $.
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
Do the math. Send all the jobs "overseas". Big big bonuses to the CEO's for saving money. Fire everyone. Then wonder where the hell the sales went, since the majority of people are now on the dole and can no longer afford ANYTHING. This is the real "trickle down" economy that the Bush II regime thinks will work with giving tax breaks to company stock. I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner. Let the jobs go. Why fight a losing game? Our country needs to find the next big technology or industry that will put us another step ahead and bring in more money. We won't have a profitable future by trying to hold on to things that *will* move away to places where they cost less to do or make. Sean Winstead
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India will be IT 'superpower' by 2006[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: India will be IT 'superpower' by 2006[^] :cool:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Do the math. Send all the jobs "overseas". Big big bonuses to the CEO's for saving money. Fire everyone. Then wonder where the hell the sales went, since the majority of people are now on the dole and can no longer afford ANYTHING. This is the real "trickle down" economy that the Bush II regime thinks will work with giving tax breaks to company stock. I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
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As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead. Please, don't assume that people from other countries code worse than on the US. Actually, when you outsource projects to, e.g., Brazil you can easily find a very good PhD for about US$40/hour. The guy who substituted Alan Cox on Linux Kernel updates is Marcelo Tosatti, a 19 year-old brazilian who (past year numbers) receives about US$35/hour working at Conectiva. Today, only him and Linus Torvalds control "cvs ci". Why this happens? Because we are better than you? No, not at all. I even believe that we have much more VB programmers than on the US, which proves we suck at programming. This happens because here 30% of the population starve, but the rest get a pretty decent life with a very low cost. My homemaid costs me about $120/month. Last month, 2000 people formed a queue all day long under a strong sun on Rio de Janeiro for a job to get $80/month (only 50 of them would really get the job). All of this reduces the living cost for the privileged people here, which happens to be the programmers, lawyers, engineers, and so on. I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Acting as a substitute for God, he becomes a dispenser of justice. - Alexandre Dumas
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Do the math. Send all the jobs "overseas". Big big bonuses to the CEO's for saving money. Fire everyone. Then wonder where the hell the sales went, since the majority of people are now on the dole and can no longer afford ANYTHING. This is the real "trickle down" economy that the Bush II regime thinks will work with giving tax breaks to company stock. I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
This smells of protectionism - isn't that anti-capitalist? Anti-free market? Shouldn't companies be free to source their labour from wherever will generate maximum profits? If that means job cuts in the rich West then shouldn't we brace ourselves - isn't a company's number one responsibility to create profit for its shareholders? I agree that a lot of people here on CP are going to be affected by this in the coming years but getting companies to pay some form of social renumeration to offset job losses is not the answer. We need a new market for our skills - and if our skills can be found cheaper elsewhere then we need to do something else! It is going to be impossible to compete with India and China simply because their workforces cost so much less yet are highly educated. Uncomfortable as many of us cosy Westerners are with outsourcing like this, I think we need to take a reality check - this is gonna bite many of us where it hurts the most (our wallets). I for one am a little concerned - ask me again in 5 years time and I expect I'll be crapping logs. Time to start learning a new trade? Not yet, at least not here in the UK where outsourcing seems to be call centres rather than development - but it's on the horizon I fear.Just my 2c.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. There's a saying in hardware: fast, low price, good quality - pick any two [ie, you can't have all three]. This may apply to programmers as well. The managers who get fast, low-priced, but bad-quality code only see the first two parts, and don't see the third part. --Mike-- "Big handwavy generalizations made from a position of deep ignorance is one of the biggest wastes of time on the net today. -- Joel Spolsky Ericahist | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber
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This smells of protectionism - isn't that anti-capitalist? Anti-free market? Shouldn't companies be free to source their labour from wherever will generate maximum profits? If that means job cuts in the rich West then shouldn't we brace ourselves - isn't a company's number one responsibility to create profit for its shareholders? I agree that a lot of people here on CP are going to be affected by this in the coming years but getting companies to pay some form of social renumeration to offset job losses is not the answer. We need a new market for our skills - and if our skills can be found cheaper elsewhere then we need to do something else! It is going to be impossible to compete with India and China simply because their workforces cost so much less yet are highly educated. Uncomfortable as many of us cosy Westerners are with outsourcing like this, I think we need to take a reality check - this is gonna bite many of us where it hurts the most (our wallets). I for one am a little concerned - ask me again in 5 years time and I expect I'll be crapping logs. Time to start learning a new trade? Not yet, at least not here in the UK where outsourcing seems to be call centres rather than development - but it's on the horizon I fear.Just my 2c.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
You're not getting the big picture. If there is NOBODY WORKING locally where the company is based, then there is NOBODY ABLE TO PURCHASE THE PRODUCTS that are being made elsewhere - so what are THOSE people going to do then? Do you think Ford will keep a factory going in Mexico if they don't need the parts that the cheap labor produces, because nobody in the States can afford SUV's any more? If Ford wants to relocate the entire company from wherever to Mexico or China, that's totally different - it would be the same as relocating from California to Utah due to taxes or earthquakes. But keeping the company in say Deleware for tax reasons but EVERYONE works out of Flordia or India is Just Plain Wrong. It's not like a branch office that is there to serve the local customer base, that is doing what a company is supposed to do. So no, it doesn't smack of protectionism, it smacks of companies being socially responsbile. Think globally, act locally, to steal a phrase from the tree huggers (who are partly to blame).
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
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I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner. Let the jobs go. Why fight a losing game? Our country needs to find the next big technology or industry that will put us another step ahead and bring in more money. We won't have a profitable future by trying to hold on to things that *will* move away to places where they cost less to do or make. Sean Winstead
So I take it you're going to be changing your job path - let us know how it goes! We're all rooting for you and your new faboulous career in burger flipping!
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
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Just like you buy toys made in China and apparel made in India/Pakistan/Burma..., it's same thing. Software made in India or support from India.. I know it's bad for Americans, but the bottom-line for the companies is $.
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: Just like you buy toys made in China and apparel made in India/Pakistan/Burma..., it's same thing. Software made in India or support from India.. Actually, I don't. I never have - I don't want crappy stuff that falls apart. Sometimes I don't have a choice, of course - like a TV for example, or a computer system. I know it's bad for Americans, but the bottom-line for the companies is $. You're assuming that this is an American problem - it's not. It's a global problem, ask people in Australia and Germany how good this has been to them. If all the cheap work is in Mexico, how come there are so many Mexicans this far north that they now have Spanish ads on the radio and the ATM's?
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
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Hi guys! What do you think about the increasing outsourcing trend to India and China? What's the future of the software industry? Bye, Orbital^ Thanks you all for participating to this (84 messages to this moment). It is very interesting to see how the world market is affecting our way of life. ...the night is long ... but not long enought to do some real coding ...
It really doesn't matter for me ... as long as I'm the boss. :-D
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You're not getting the big picture. If there is NOBODY WORKING locally where the company is based, then there is NOBODY ABLE TO PURCHASE THE PRODUCTS that are being made elsewhere - so what are THOSE people going to do then? Do you think Ford will keep a factory going in Mexico if they don't need the parts that the cheap labor produces, because nobody in the States can afford SUV's any more? If Ford wants to relocate the entire company from wherever to Mexico or China, that's totally different - it would be the same as relocating from California to Utah due to taxes or earthquakes. But keeping the company in say Deleware for tax reasons but EVERYONE works out of Flordia or India is Just Plain Wrong. It's not like a branch office that is there to serve the local customer base, that is doing what a company is supposed to do. So no, it doesn't smack of protectionism, it smacks of companies being socially responsbile. Think globally, act locally, to steal a phrase from the tree huggers (who are partly to blame).
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
But if our economy collapses than we will work for nothing and all the jobs will come back here? Correct? You had better get used to the fact that we live in a global economy - there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. The government and all the socially repsonsible companies you could create are not going to be able to do a damned thing about it. If they don't use the cheap labor, someone else will and our companies will be out competed on the international market. Even if we American's only bought US produtcts, regardless of the additional cost, that would merely weaken the dollar, cause inflation, destroy our economy, make our businesses non-competitive and we would *still* lose our jobs. The only thing we can do is to be productive. Stay on top of the technology, keep taxes low (on everyone but especially investments). Or in other words, pretty much what Bush is trying to do. "The undergrowth was overgrown..."
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Orbital^ wrote: What's the future of the software industry? Very bright! Especially in India and China. ;) BW "In a world full of people, only some want to fly,Isn't that crazy?" - Seal
I don't believe it- somebody gave you a 2! My guess is he wasn't able to find the 1 link. :laugh: Anyway, I gave you a 5 for the humor. OT: About the article, I've fired off an email. Check it out and let me know what you think. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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But if our economy collapses than we will work for nothing and all the jobs will come back here? Correct? You had better get used to the fact that we live in a global economy - there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. The government and all the socially repsonsible companies you could create are not going to be able to do a damned thing about it. If they don't use the cheap labor, someone else will and our companies will be out competed on the international market. Even if we American's only bought US produtcts, regardless of the additional cost, that would merely weaken the dollar, cause inflation, destroy our economy, make our businesses non-competitive and we would *still* lose our jobs. The only thing we can do is to be productive. Stay on top of the technology, keep taxes low (on everyone but especially investments). Or in other words, pretty much what Bush is trying to do. "The undergrowth was overgrown..."
Excellent, Stan! You got my 5. Nice sig, too.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead. Please, don't assume that people from other countries code worse than on the US. Actually, when you outsource projects to, e.g., Brazil you can easily find a very good PhD for about US$40/hour. The guy who substituted Alan Cox on Linux Kernel updates is Marcelo Tosatti, a 19 year-old brazilian who (past year numbers) receives about US$35/hour working at Conectiva. Today, only him and Linus Torvalds control "cvs ci". Why this happens? Because we are better than you? No, not at all. I even believe that we have much more VB programmers than on the US, which proves we suck at programming. This happens because here 30% of the population starve, but the rest get a pretty decent life with a very low cost. My homemaid costs me about $120/month. Last month, 2000 people formed a queue all day long under a strong sun on Rio de Janeiro for a job to get $80/month (only 50 of them would really get the job). All of this reduces the living cost for the privileged people here, which happens to be the programmers, lawyers, engineers, and so on. I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Acting as a substitute for God, he becomes a dispenser of justice. - Alexandre Dumas
Daniel Turini wrote: I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Yes. I'm lucky to have got a job a whole year before I graduate, and that too with an MNC. Some of my seniors (2 years elder than me) are working at non-IT jobs like cashiers and textile showroom salespersons :(( , for Rs 2000 a month ( USD 40 ). Yep, you read that right- forty dollars a month. Alright, that doesn't give the true picture, because you can buy more in India with Rs. 50 than you can buy in the US with $1. But still, believe me, this salary is abysmal. :(
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. There's a saying in hardware: fast, low price, good quality - pick any two [ie, you can't have all three]. This may apply to programmers as well. The managers who get fast, low-priced, but bad-quality code only see the first two parts, and don't see the third part. --Mike-- "Big handwavy generalizations made from a position of deep ignorance is one of the biggest wastes of time on the net today. -- Joel Spolsky Ericahist | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber
Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? Not speaking for Mike here, but I think the implication was simply you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. If you have ever studied sociology before, there is a school of thought called "McDonalization" where everything is fast, cheap and of good quality - this is simply not the case with programming. There were no comments about third-world coders made. -Nick Parker
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India will be IT 'superpower' by 2006[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".I don't see it happenning in the near future, going by education standards. :( Before you and Rohit decide to flame me, think for a moment- you guys are in the industry, which is quite well, as we all admit. But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT :cool: rather than go for a job.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? Not speaking for Mike here, but I think the implication was simply you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. If you have ever studied sociology before, there is a school of thought called "McDonalization" where everything is fast, cheap and of good quality - this is simply not the case with programming. There were no comments about third-world coders made. -Nick Parker
Nick Parker wrote: There were no comments about third-world coders made. I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? Anyway, forget it. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Nick Parker wrote: There were no comments about third-world coders made. I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? Anyway, forget it. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? No problems, I was strictly commenting on Mike's comment. ;) -Nick Parker