Software outsourcing
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You're not getting the big picture. If there is NOBODY WORKING locally where the company is based, then there is NOBODY ABLE TO PURCHASE THE PRODUCTS that are being made elsewhere - so what are THOSE people going to do then? Do you think Ford will keep a factory going in Mexico if they don't need the parts that the cheap labor produces, because nobody in the States can afford SUV's any more? If Ford wants to relocate the entire company from wherever to Mexico or China, that's totally different - it would be the same as relocating from California to Utah due to taxes or earthquakes. But keeping the company in say Deleware for tax reasons but EVERYONE works out of Flordia or India is Just Plain Wrong. It's not like a branch office that is there to serve the local customer base, that is doing what a company is supposed to do. So no, it doesn't smack of protectionism, it smacks of companies being socially responsbile. Think globally, act locally, to steal a phrase from the tree huggers (who are partly to blame).
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
But if our economy collapses than we will work for nothing and all the jobs will come back here? Correct? You had better get used to the fact that we live in a global economy - there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. The government and all the socially repsonsible companies you could create are not going to be able to do a damned thing about it. If they don't use the cheap labor, someone else will and our companies will be out competed on the international market. Even if we American's only bought US produtcts, regardless of the additional cost, that would merely weaken the dollar, cause inflation, destroy our economy, make our businesses non-competitive and we would *still* lose our jobs. The only thing we can do is to be productive. Stay on top of the technology, keep taxes low (on everyone but especially investments). Or in other words, pretty much what Bush is trying to do. "The undergrowth was overgrown..."
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Orbital^ wrote: What's the future of the software industry? Very bright! Especially in India and China. ;) BW "In a world full of people, only some want to fly,Isn't that crazy?" - Seal
I don't believe it- somebody gave you a 2! My guess is he wasn't able to find the 1 link. :laugh: Anyway, I gave you a 5 for the humor. OT: About the article, I've fired off an email. Check it out and let me know what you think. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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But if our economy collapses than we will work for nothing and all the jobs will come back here? Correct? You had better get used to the fact that we live in a global economy - there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. The government and all the socially repsonsible companies you could create are not going to be able to do a damned thing about it. If they don't use the cheap labor, someone else will and our companies will be out competed on the international market. Even if we American's only bought US produtcts, regardless of the additional cost, that would merely weaken the dollar, cause inflation, destroy our economy, make our businesses non-competitive and we would *still* lose our jobs. The only thing we can do is to be productive. Stay on top of the technology, keep taxes low (on everyone but especially investments). Or in other words, pretty much what Bush is trying to do. "The undergrowth was overgrown..."
Excellent, Stan! You got my 5. Nice sig, too.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead. Please, don't assume that people from other countries code worse than on the US. Actually, when you outsource projects to, e.g., Brazil you can easily find a very good PhD for about US$40/hour. The guy who substituted Alan Cox on Linux Kernel updates is Marcelo Tosatti, a 19 year-old brazilian who (past year numbers) receives about US$35/hour working at Conectiva. Today, only him and Linus Torvalds control "cvs ci". Why this happens? Because we are better than you? No, not at all. I even believe that we have much more VB programmers than on the US, which proves we suck at programming. This happens because here 30% of the population starve, but the rest get a pretty decent life with a very low cost. My homemaid costs me about $120/month. Last month, 2000 people formed a queue all day long under a strong sun on Rio de Janeiro for a job to get $80/month (only 50 of them would really get the job). All of this reduces the living cost for the privileged people here, which happens to be the programmers, lawyers, engineers, and so on. I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Acting as a substitute for God, he becomes a dispenser of justice. - Alexandre Dumas
Daniel Turini wrote: I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Yes. I'm lucky to have got a job a whole year before I graduate, and that too with an MNC. Some of my seniors (2 years elder than me) are working at non-IT jobs like cashiers and textile showroom salespersons :(( , for Rs 2000 a month ( USD 40 ). Yep, you read that right- forty dollars a month. Alright, that doesn't give the true picture, because you can buy more in India with Rs. 50 than you can buy in the US with $1. But still, believe me, this salary is abysmal. :(
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. There's a saying in hardware: fast, low price, good quality - pick any two [ie, you can't have all three]. This may apply to programmers as well. The managers who get fast, low-priced, but bad-quality code only see the first two parts, and don't see the third part. --Mike-- "Big handwavy generalizations made from a position of deep ignorance is one of the biggest wastes of time on the net today. -- Joel Spolsky Ericahist | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber
Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? Not speaking for Mike here, but I think the implication was simply you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. If you have ever studied sociology before, there is a school of thought called "McDonalization" where everything is fast, cheap and of good quality - this is simply not the case with programming. There were no comments about third-world coders made. -Nick Parker
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India will be IT 'superpower' by 2006[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".I don't see it happenning in the near future, going by education standards. :( Before you and Rohit decide to flame me, think for a moment- you guys are in the industry, which is quite well, as we all admit. But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT :cool: rather than go for a job.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? Not speaking for Mike here, but I think the implication was simply you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. If you have ever studied sociology before, there is a school of thought called "McDonalization" where everything is fast, cheap and of good quality - this is simply not the case with programming. There were no comments about third-world coders made. -Nick Parker
Nick Parker wrote: There were no comments about third-world coders made. I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? Anyway, forget it. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Nick Parker wrote: There were no comments about third-world coders made. I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? Anyway, forget it. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? No problems, I was strictly commenting on Mike's comment. ;) -Nick Parker
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? Not speaking for Mike here, but I think the implication was simply you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. If you have ever studied sociology before, there is a school of thought called "McDonalization" where everything is fast, cheap and of good quality - this is simply not the case with programming. There were no comments about third-world coders made. -Nick Parker
Nick Parker wrote: you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. This assert is wrong IMHO. Take codeproject code to reduce time to market for anything regarding MFC controls and the like. Then take all those people answering technical questions in newsgroups. Don't they allow a better time to market, while at the same time the guy at the other end is a complete VB schmuck? Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's name and password. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's clipboard.
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Orbital^ wrote: What's the future of the software industry? Very bright! Especially in India and China. ;) BW "In a world full of people, only some want to fly,Isn't that crazy?" - Seal
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I think they should force the companies that ship jobs (any kind!) out of the country where it is BASED to pay the difference to the dole account so that the governement can afford to pay off the people who have gotten sacked in this manner. Let the jobs go. Why fight a losing game? Our country needs to find the next big technology or industry that will put us another step ahead and bring in more money. We won't have a profitable future by trying to hold on to things that *will* move away to places where they cost less to do or make. Sean Winstead
Sean Winstead wrote: Our country needs to find the next big technology or industry that will put us another step ahead and bring in more money I'll add to this that offshore programmers entering this area are often new people (barely over 2 years in IT commitment) and as such don't have the background required to manage the low-level stuff, like COM plumbing for instance. Another example, the behaviors and actual knowledge of the underlying OS takes time and involvement, which is contrary to the fact that we are talking people who would take US and western Europe jobs but are : - young, new in this area - under worse pressure from management This is good news for us in our thirties. My recommendation is also to STOP answering technical questions for free (newsgroups, ...). Let them tank. After all, if you can make bucks with your technical knowledge, why should you give it away for free? Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's name and password. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's clipboard.
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This smells of protectionism - isn't that anti-capitalist? Anti-free market? Shouldn't companies be free to source their labour from wherever will generate maximum profits? If that means job cuts in the rich West then shouldn't we brace ourselves - isn't a company's number one responsibility to create profit for its shareholders? I agree that a lot of people here on CP are going to be affected by this in the coming years but getting companies to pay some form of social renumeration to offset job losses is not the answer. We need a new market for our skills - and if our skills can be found cheaper elsewhere then we need to do something else! It is going to be impossible to compete with India and China simply because their workforces cost so much less yet are highly educated. Uncomfortable as many of us cosy Westerners are with outsourcing like this, I think we need to take a reality check - this is gonna bite many of us where it hurts the most (our wallets). I for one am a little concerned - ask me again in 5 years time and I expect I'll be crapping logs. Time to start learning a new trade? Not yet, at least not here in the UK where outsourcing seems to be call centres rather than development - but it's on the horizon I fear.Just my 2c.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: We need a new market for our skills Doesn't this question CodeProject "Free source code"? Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's name and password. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's clipboard.
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Hi guys! What do you think about the increasing outsourcing trend to India and China? What's the future of the software industry? Bye, Orbital^ Thanks you all for participating to this (84 messages to this moment). It is very interesting to see how the world market is affecting our way of life. ...the night is long ... but not long enought to do some real coding ...
As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. My clients like the face to face approach which gives me an advantage over the rest. I've recently worked with a large American company who have outsourced a lot of their development to an Indian company. The Indian developers have done a top rate job, and from one professional to another you have to admire that. I still think there is plenty of room for the smaller development house who offer a more personal service. The trick is to provide a full broad development service rather than just being a coder for hire. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenI was working for a company who recently started outsourcing some of their work to an Indian company. They might have been cheaper than their UK counterparts, but their work was excellent. I couldn't find any fault with their quality. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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This smells of protectionism - isn't that anti-capitalist? Anti-free market? Shouldn't companies be free to source their labour from wherever will generate maximum profits? If that means job cuts in the rich West then shouldn't we brace ourselves - isn't a company's number one responsibility to create profit for its shareholders? I agree that a lot of people here on CP are going to be affected by this in the coming years but getting companies to pay some form of social renumeration to offset job losses is not the answer. We need a new market for our skills - and if our skills can be found cheaper elsewhere then we need to do something else! It is going to be impossible to compete with India and China simply because their workforces cost so much less yet are highly educated. Uncomfortable as many of us cosy Westerners are with outsourcing like this, I think we need to take a reality check - this is gonna bite many of us where it hurts the most (our wallets). I for one am a little concerned - ask me again in 5 years time and I expect I'll be crapping logs. Time to start learning a new trade? Not yet, at least not here in the UK where outsourcing seems to be call centres rather than development - but it's on the horizon I fear.Just my 2c.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Time to start learning a new trade? Not yet, at least not here in the UK where outsourcing seems to be call centres rather than development - but it's on the horizon I fear.Just my 2c. I have recently been contracting to a UK call-centre doing some development work. They had developed their software platform in house. Along comes an American corporation and buys them and two other call-centres out. They merge, and then all new development is out-sourced. Some to an Indian company and some to an American company. The interesting thing is that the Indian company did a far better job than the Americans. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. My clients like the face to face approach which gives me an advantage over the rest. I've recently worked with a large American company who have outsourced a lot of their development to an Indian company. The Indian developers have done a top rate job, and from one professional to another you have to admire that. I still think there is plenty of room for the smaller development house who offer a more personal service. The trick is to provide a full broad development service rather than just being a coder for hire. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead. Please, don't assume that people from other countries code worse than on the US. Actually, when you outsource projects to, e.g., Brazil you can easily find a very good PhD for about US$40/hour. The guy who substituted Alan Cox on Linux Kernel updates is Marcelo Tosatti, a 19 year-old brazilian who (past year numbers) receives about US$35/hour working at Conectiva. Today, only him and Linus Torvalds control "cvs ci". Why this happens? Because we are better than you? No, not at all. I even believe that we have much more VB programmers than on the US, which proves we suck at programming. This happens because here 30% of the population starve, but the rest get a pretty decent life with a very low cost. My homemaid costs me about $120/month. Last month, 2000 people formed a queue all day long under a strong sun on Rio de Janeiro for a job to get $80/month (only 50 of them would really get the job). All of this reduces the living cost for the privileged people here, which happens to be the programmers, lawyers, engineers, and so on. I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Acting as a substitute for God, he becomes a dispenser of justice. - Alexandre Dumas
Daniel, I was talking about the two destinaitons mentioned in particular. I am not saying Indians or Chinese cannot code as good. But, ath the average, quality will be worse. The industry thast is our customer is strongly moving production to China. Main problem: Quality, and communication. I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. My experience with China is that they chiefly boil in their own Water - the contact to the outside is weak, and the influence from the outside even weaker. When loking at the questions, and the code posted by Chinese people here, I see an almost invincible wall of culture here. Consumers have accepted blenders with an unintelligible manual - because it's cheap, and only has an on/off button. Will customers accept a Word made in China, because it's cheap? I agree with you - shops go there because it's cheap. And CEO's will believe everything when they you tell them he can replace his coding diva's with $80 Brazilians grateful to be allowed to work. We can't win the price race. My apartment costs $400, I get along with extra $200 running cost in a good month. I could reduce, hitting a brick wall at maybe 50%. To shop cheaper I'd need a car, I'd be further away from work, in a less beautiful part of town. For a starving Brazilian this sounds remote and arrogant, but I am not willing to do that. (btw. I am from Germany, not the US)
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen -
I was working for a company who recently started outsourcing some of their work to an Indian company. They might have been cheaper than their UK counterparts, but their work was excellent. I couldn't find any fault with their quality. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
Rocky Moore wrote: You totally miss the point. I was saying that it won't affect me - personally. There will always be a demand for people who can work hard and provide the right service. I'm a product of Thatcher's Britain. I've seen a lot of our old industries wiped out by the effects you describe. (Coal, Steel, Car etc). You have to learn to adapt and change to circumstances. I work for myself, I build custom solutions for small businesses. I don't get paid a fortune, because I don't need a fortune. However I do manage to pay my bills every month and still have enough to enjoy life. There will always be a need for people like me. It's just a matter of getting on my bike and finding the work. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879