Software outsourcing
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Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
Rocky Moore wrote: The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. That is like trying to protect yourself from the boogeyman by hiding under the covers - if the boogeyman is really there the covers won't help. The only thing that is going to get all this economic disclocation under control is a one world government, probably a dictatorship of some kind. Get used to it... "The undergrowth was overgrown..."
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. There's a saying in hardware: fast, low price, good quality - pick any two [ie, you can't have all three]. This may apply to programmers as well. The managers who get fast, low-priced, but bad-quality code only see the first two parts, and don't see the third part. --Mike-- "Big handwavy generalizations made from a position of deep ignorance is one of the biggest wastes of time on the net today. -- Joel Spolsky Ericahist | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber
Michael Dunn wrote: fast, low price, good quality On my experience: The companies for which I have worked in US (Fortune 500 companies) and not even one company implemented ISO and/or SW-CMM levels. Almost all the companies prefer "fast" (Meeting the dealine) and "low price" (Meet/Spend less than the Budget). I come from a ISO software company India, when I try to implement the quality rules, my boss said forget the quality as long as it works, that's enough for him. But on other hand, almost all Indian offshore companies (the big firms) Quality matters a lot. I quote from a software mag: Quality is the hallmark of Indian software industry. It was in 1994, that Edward A. Gargan reported in The New York Times that the Indian software industry is breaking new grounds with a software unit in Bangalore with the Software Engineering Institute Capability Maturity Model (SEI-CMM) Level 5 certification. Since then, there has been no looking back. The quality and maturity of the Indian software industry can be assessed from the fact that of the top 300 Indian software companies, 115 of them have acquired ISO 9000 certification, while 70 more companies are in the pipeline. As of May 1998, there were only nine companies in the world which have acquired SEI Level 5 certification. Five of these nine companies are located in India. These include: Satyam, ICIL, Motorola, Tata Consultancy Services and Wipro. Today, the Indian software industry is known for high quality with cost effective rates. The Government of India also provides special benefits to quality certified software companies.
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
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I don't see it happenning in the near future, going by education standards. :( Before you and Rohit decide to flame me, think for a moment- you guys are in the industry, which is quite well, as we all admit. But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT :cool: rather than go for a job.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT rather than go for a job. 1. If you already got a job offer then I don't recommend studing M.Tech. It just waste of time, doesn't matter IIT/REC... You can always do the M.Tech later (from JNTU Evening college) People who didn't got job offers from campus interviews they go for M.Tech and try their luck there. 2. If you really want to go for higher studies then do MS/MBA in US. It's always added advantage if you want to return to India. But in US almost all the IT jobs the BS degree is enough. I have seen few Americans(co-workers) doing their MS in their 40+, that too b'cos companies sponsor them.
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead. Please, don't assume that people from other countries code worse than on the US. Actually, when you outsource projects to, e.g., Brazil you can easily find a very good PhD for about US$40/hour. The guy who substituted Alan Cox on Linux Kernel updates is Marcelo Tosatti, a 19 year-old brazilian who (past year numbers) receives about US$35/hour working at Conectiva. Today, only him and Linus Torvalds control "cvs ci". Why this happens? Because we are better than you? No, not at all. I even believe that we have much more VB programmers than on the US, which proves we suck at programming. This happens because here 30% of the population starve, but the rest get a pretty decent life with a very low cost. My homemaid costs me about $120/month. Last month, 2000 people formed a queue all day long under a strong sun on Rio de Janeiro for a job to get $80/month (only 50 of them would really get the job). All of this reduces the living cost for the privileged people here, which happens to be the programmers, lawyers, engineers, and so on. I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Acting as a substitute for God, he becomes a dispenser of justice. - Alexandre Dumas
I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
Nick Parker wrote: There were no comments about third-world coders made. I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? Anyway, forget it. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries Yes and no. The discussion is about outsourcing to third-world countries because it's cheaper. Therefore, the counter argument is that typically when your focus is strictly financial, you abandon quality. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen SigvardssonTom Archer wrote: I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. For the same reason you would assume that Peterchen's name is Peter Chen. :)
// Quantum sort algorithm implementation
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Tom Archer wrote: I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. For the same reason you would assume that Peterchen's name is Peter Chen. :)
// Quantum sort algorithm implementation
while (!sorted)
;My wife's name is Krista and her id is Kristalinski. The last bit is a private joke between us and has nothing to do with her name. Therefore, I didn't make any assumptions on his last name :) Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries Yes and no. The discussion is about outsourcing to third-world countries because it's cheaper. Therefore, the counter argument is that typically when your focus is strictly financial, you abandon quality. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen SigvardssonTom Archer wrote: Therefore, the counter argument is that typically when your focus is strictly financial, you abandon quality. Tom, I believe you've worked with enough Indians to judge for yourself. While it is true that most Indian developers do focus on financial aspects, and some do abandon quality, generalization is always bad.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Daniel, I was talking about the two destinaitons mentioned in particular. I am not saying Indians or Chinese cannot code as good. But, ath the average, quality will be worse. The industry thast is our customer is strongly moving production to China. Main problem: Quality, and communication. I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. My experience with China is that they chiefly boil in their own Water - the contact to the outside is weak, and the influence from the outside even weaker. When loking at the questions, and the code posted by Chinese people here, I see an almost invincible wall of culture here. Consumers have accepted blenders with an unintelligible manual - because it's cheap, and only has an on/off button. Will customers accept a Word made in China, because it's cheap? I agree with you - shops go there because it's cheap. And CEO's will believe everything when they you tell them he can replace his coding diva's with $80 Brazilians grateful to be allowed to work. We can't win the price race. My apartment costs $400, I get along with extra $200 running cost in a good month. I could reduce, hitting a brick wall at maybe 50%. To shop cheaper I'd need a car, I'd be further away from work, in a less beautiful part of town. For a starving Brazilian this sounds remote and arrogant, but I am not willing to do that. (btw. I am from Germany, not the US)
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." I can't comment on this, peter* - I'm only a student, I have no idea about what the industry is like. peterchen wrote: Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! Err.. are you referring to *my* posts here? :~ * - I know your name is not Peter Chen, but I can't think of a better name to call you than Peter. ;P What's your real name?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as I can's speak for Mike. But here is my opinion. % wise I believe only a small amount of the Indian programmers (20%) actually have the ability to produce quality code. Most of the people I worked with turned out to be copy paste people. This might be because there is an enormous overflow of programmers. The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc.
I don't choose the targets - they present themselves to me in an almost garish display of submission and sacrifice. It's my duty to react as I do. - John Simmons/Outlaw Programmer
Rama Krishna wrote: % wise I believe only a small amount of the Indian programmers (20%) actually have the ability to produce quality code. Prolly because there are too many programmers. I partly agree with what you say. However, if you're calling every (Indian) bloke going around with a BE CS Engg degree a developer, you're making a big mistake. Where did you graduate from- an IIT?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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peterchen wrote: I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." I can't comment on this, peter* - I'm only a student, I have no idea about what the industry is like. peterchen wrote: Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! Err.. are you referring to *my* posts here? :~ * - I know your name is not Peter Chen, but I can't think of a better name to call you than Peter. ;P What's your real name?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! Do you mean the "Education System", as in the education system, or the programming currliculum that your college has?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as I can's speak for Mike. But here is my opinion. % wise I believe only a small amount of the Indian programmers (20%) actually have the ability to produce quality code. Most of the people I worked with turned out to be copy paste people. This might be because there is an enormous overflow of programmers. The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc.
I don't choose the targets - they present themselves to me in an almost garish display of submission and sacrifice. It's my duty to react as I do. - John Simmons/Outlaw Programmer
Rama Krishna wrote: % wise I believe only a small amount of the Indian programmers (20%) actually have the ability to produce quality code. Most of the people I worked with turned out to be copy paste people. Maybe you haven't worked with too many people, or maybe you haven't met the right kind of people? ;P I have met very few programmers over here who were not reasonably, if not exceptionally, good. But then maybe it's me who hasn't met the right kind of people, or worked with too many people. ;)
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Sean Winstead wrote: Our country needs to find the next big technology or industry that will put us another step ahead and bring in more money I'll add to this that offshore programmers entering this area are often new people (barely over 2 years in IT commitment) and as such don't have the background required to manage the low-level stuff, like COM plumbing for instance. Another example, the behaviors and actual knowledge of the underlying OS takes time and involvement, which is contrary to the fact that we are talking people who would take US and western Europe jobs but are : - young, new in this area - under worse pressure from management This is good news for us in our thirties. My recommendation is also to STOP answering technical questions for free (newsgroups, ...). Let them tank. After all, if you can make bucks with your technical knowledge, why should you give it away for free? Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's name and password. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's clipboard.
I'm 100% with you Stephane here. >> My recommendation is also to STOP answering technical questions for free << Actually, era of such sites as CG and CP in my opinion is passed. Yes, it's nice to go to some Internet site and get an aswer for free. However, that's important for any industry to protect secrets and proprietary interests -- that's what gets forgotten here. For example the rules of that site prohibits from placing articles without Source Code, or with not full SourceCode. May I ask Why? Not enough disk space, or what? For example, my article (http://members.cox.net/igor.tebelev/ActiveXDeployer.htm[^])gets rejected, just because it doesn't have everything in source code. I haven't seen any of Internet sites describing how to bake real "German" or "Russina" bread for example. However, I can easily find latest source code on almost anything (except probably CAD/CAM/CAE). I doubt any of those who are placing articles with source code here are honestly trying to help -- majority are looking for some kind of "name recognition" and etc. associated with it. So, one day those "American" authors, as well as owners of such site as CP, may have to switch to some other language, or at least different dialect of English. The question is: would they be capable to? ;P "...Ability to type is not enough to become a Programmer. Unless you type in VB. But then again you have to type really fast..." Me
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Daniel, I was talking about the two destinaitons mentioned in particular. I am not saying Indians or Chinese cannot code as good. But, ath the average, quality will be worse. The industry thast is our customer is strongly moving production to China. Main problem: Quality, and communication. I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. My experience with China is that they chiefly boil in their own Water - the contact to the outside is weak, and the influence from the outside even weaker. When loking at the questions, and the code posted by Chinese people here, I see an almost invincible wall of culture here. Consumers have accepted blenders with an unintelligible manual - because it's cheap, and only has an on/off button. Will customers accept a Word made in China, because it's cheap? I agree with you - shops go there because it's cheap. And CEO's will believe everything when they you tell them he can replace his coding diva's with $80 Brazilians grateful to be allowed to work. We can't win the price race. My apartment costs $400, I get along with extra $200 running cost in a good month. I could reduce, hitting a brick wall at maybe 50%. To shop cheaper I'd need a car, I'd be further away from work, in a less beautiful part of town. For a starving Brazilian this sounds remote and arrogant, but I am not willing to do that. (btw. I am from Germany, not the US)
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." I invite you to come to India and see things for yourself. Anyway, this doesn't tell anything about the quality of code that we produce. ;) I don't know for sure why people outside India have such a bad impression about Indians. There could be several reasons for this in my opinion. 1. There are a lot of Indians who like to badmouth India. Oh India is so corrupt. I hate it here. <> The roads are so dirty and filthy! Yuck! <> I won't vote in these elections, the politicians are so damn corrupt! etc. You get the picture. 2. There are people, in and outside the Indian community, who can't see anyone else get ahead of them and will blame their own incompetence/whatever on improper tactics by others. 3. There are of course, some swindlers. But then you can find them everywhere. Have you had any personal experiences with Indians? I'm interested in knowing, if you don't mind sharing them. Maybe someday I'll write a book on the top 100000001 things not to do abroad if you are an Indian. :rolleyes:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
I'm 100% with you Stephane here. >> My recommendation is also to STOP answering technical questions for free << Actually, era of such sites as CG and CP in my opinion is passed. Yes, it's nice to go to some Internet site and get an aswer for free. However, that's important for any industry to protect secrets and proprietary interests -- that's what gets forgotten here. For example the rules of that site prohibits from placing articles without Source Code, or with not full SourceCode. May I ask Why? Not enough disk space, or what? For example, my article (http://members.cox.net/igor.tebelev/ActiveXDeployer.htm[^])gets rejected, just because it doesn't have everything in source code. I haven't seen any of Internet sites describing how to bake real "German" or "Russina" bread for example. However, I can easily find latest source code on almost anything (except probably CAD/CAM/CAE). I doubt any of those who are placing articles with source code here are honestly trying to help -- majority are looking for some kind of "name recognition" and etc. associated with it. So, one day those "American" authors, as well as owners of such site as CP, may have to switch to some other language, or at least different dialect of English. The question is: would they be capable to? ;P "...Ability to type is not enough to become a Programmer. Unless you type in VB. But then again you have to type really fast..." Me
igor1960 wrote: my article (http://members.cox.net/igor.tebelev/ActiveXDeployer.htm\[^\])gets rejected, just because it doesn't have everything in source code. I'd like to know if CodeProject admins told you so, or you had bad votes and then decided to remove the article as a whole after a day or two ? I believe this is due to bad votes, and it is sad. I don't see Chris or another editor act like this. Voting is like a game, unfortunately it turns the article so bad, and ironically be the exact opposite of the value of the article. That's plain cruel, and that's why the votes have been such a hot debate since CodeProject has begun. I know this is a bad situation. In fact, although CodeProject has at its very beginning made possible any kind of altruism, today it's more and more filled with people only aiming to take the code, and paste it in their applications. This is my belief only a few people take the time to read the article purposedly, ie learn something new. I am afraid that's the kind of things that the programming world has naturally evolved to. As we continue to see uneducated people flood the IT sector and get a job as if they were programmers, we'll still fall to that. In an ideal, well-balanced world, authors should be able to earn a few bucks for their work, even if the article and source code is basically published without the intention of earning significant money. That's really up to CodeProject to make this possible, especially when you know that each visitor has to create an account to be able to download the code. CodeProject also does not support paid translation services either, which I personally would find very helpful for me and my peers. Since CodeProject has failed in all that, since the next generation of the web is coming : RSS (for content), Google (for direct, and inverse linking), I believe it's now up to authors to take their stuff and run their business right away on their own websites. A lot of people have admitted they wouldn't post quality articles and source code they have, on CodeProject. I believe this is well thought. igor1960 wrote: doubt any of those who are placing articles with source code here are honestly trying to help -- majority are looking for some kind of "name recognition" and etc. associated with it. Yes. Don't forget a lot of them are also searching for our job. An article with great comments can do just as much as a good resume. Today though, a well-thought weblog can
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I don't see it happenning in the near future, going by education standards. :( Before you and Rohit decide to flame me, think for a moment- you guys are in the industry, which is quite well, as we all admit. But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT :cool: rather than go for a job.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . I have gone through education too, and I've seen my friends and cousins too, and believe me, it's not as bad as you think. Spoonfeeding is not what the Indian education system is all about. It's about making you learn concepts, not memorise things. It's about making you confident about the real world that you are going into, by instilling in you an ability to probe further, work harder, and see things for yourself. It's about letting you make your own decisions, and learn from others' experiences and your own too. So in my college, Comp Sc dept for example, they taught us C in the first year, and then no other language. People were free to choose whatever language they wanted to implement their project in, as long as it met the specs, it was OK. They could choose to learn no other languages, or learn any number of languages as they wanted. Of course, they could consult the professors in case of difficulties. If you tell me that my college was an IIT, and IITs are the best in India, let me tell you that the situation is not much different in other colleges. There are some differences of course, and each univ/college has its own system. But the principle is the same. Make the student study.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
I'm 100% with you Stephane here. >> My recommendation is also to STOP answering technical questions for free << Actually, era of such sites as CG and CP in my opinion is passed. Yes, it's nice to go to some Internet site and get an aswer for free. However, that's important for any industry to protect secrets and proprietary interests -- that's what gets forgotten here. For example the rules of that site prohibits from placing articles without Source Code, or with not full SourceCode. May I ask Why? Not enough disk space, or what? For example, my article (http://members.cox.net/igor.tebelev/ActiveXDeployer.htm[^])gets rejected, just because it doesn't have everything in source code. I haven't seen any of Internet sites describing how to bake real "German" or "Russina" bread for example. However, I can easily find latest source code on almost anything (except probably CAD/CAM/CAE). I doubt any of those who are placing articles with source code here are honestly trying to help -- majority are looking for some kind of "name recognition" and etc. associated with it. So, one day those "American" authors, as well as owners of such site as CP, may have to switch to some other language, or at least different dialect of English. The question is: would they be capable to? ;P "...Ability to type is not enough to become a Programmer. Unless you type in VB. But then again you have to type really fast..." Me
igor1960 wrote: the rules of that site prohibits from placing articles without Source Code, In fact you can post an article, including only binaries. It's the free tools section[^]. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's name and password. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's clipboard.
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Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
Rocky Moore wrote: If Indians want to work for peanuts, then let them grow their own IT demand in thier own country instead of being slaves of others. Nobody wants to work for peanuts. But what happens is, what is good money for people here is peanuts for you in comparison. But then, when a US company for example, comes to India looking to outsource a project, should an Indian company charge based on the Indian rates or the US ones, and risk losing the bid to other companies, who will bid according to the Indian rates? Even then, an Indian programmer makes much more than his friend in another industry, with equivalent qualifications/experience/skills. As for India's own IT demand, it's happening. Very slowly, but steadily. Slaves? What slaves?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Daniel, I was talking about the two destinaitons mentioned in particular. I am not saying Indians or Chinese cannot code as good. But, ath the average, quality will be worse. The industry thast is our customer is strongly moving production to China. Main problem: Quality, and communication. I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. My experience with China is that they chiefly boil in their own Water - the contact to the outside is weak, and the influence from the outside even weaker. When loking at the questions, and the code posted by Chinese people here, I see an almost invincible wall of culture here. Consumers have accepted blenders with an unintelligible manual - because it's cheap, and only has an on/off button. Will customers accept a Word made in China, because it's cheap? I agree with you - shops go there because it's cheap. And CEO's will believe everything when they you tell them he can replace his coding diva's with $80 Brazilians grateful to be allowed to work. We can't win the price race. My apartment costs $400, I get along with extra $200 running cost in a good month. I could reduce, hitting a brick wall at maybe 50%. To shop cheaper I'd need a car, I'd be further away from work, in a less beautiful part of town. For a starving Brazilian this sounds remote and arrogant, but I am not willing to do that. (btw. I am from Germany, not the US)
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." :wtf: That's weird. Just b'cos he had bad experience with one company, he shouldn't paint all Indians with the same brush. Can you ask him what's the company name? (I am curious to know) peterchen wrote: Will customers accept a Word made in China, because it's cheap? I dono about that, but generally Chinese software developers work their butt off compared to their counterparts. I have seen few, they work like machines. I don't think China can grab anything big in the software outsourcing projects. Their hands full with consumer products and Hardware components. Here is the pic : Article[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
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peterchen wrote: I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." I can't comment on this, peter* - I'm only a student, I have no idea about what the industry is like. peterchen wrote: Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! Err.. are you referring to *my* posts here? :~ * - I know your name is not Peter Chen, but I can't think of a better name to call you than Peter. ;P What's your real name?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! :omg: :wtf: :confused: :~ :| X| :suss: :eek: :zzz: I forgive b'cos you haven't seen the world. Education system is good, only the policies governed by Govt sucks. (ex: giving priority to caste than percentage of marks...) Read the interesting articles here.[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".