Offshore job drain to india
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This info was extracted from the interview Mr Narayana Murthy, CEO Infosys Technologies given to Gardner journalists for one specific question he said this example A smart journalist in Australia asked me a question at a press conference; “You guys are taking all our jobs to India. You should be thrown out." I told him I use an LG refrigerator at home in India, I drink Pepsi and Coke though we had our own Indian drinks, I use a GM car where we had a vibrant automobile industry, and so forth. I use Cisco routers and a Toshiba tablet PC which are imported, so do you think we should throw all these companies out? When ever my US friends ask me about IT works going to India and looking me as if we are the core reason for ppls getting retrenched. But i never thought what Mr Murthy told here. Lets have a debate. :) Cheers, Venkatraman Kalyanam Bangalore - India "Being Excellent is not a skill, it is an attitude" Reality is an illusion caused by caffeine deficiency(one Microsoft Research scholor)
Something about double standards.... The tigress is here :-D
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If you fuckers would learn proper english and speak without an accent when I call tech support, I wouldn't mind so much. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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It seems to me that a lot of people are getting worked up over something that isn't really all that important. There will always be a need for "local" development workers, purely because a lot of software jobs can't be outsourced abroad easily: Government (not for the Labour governments lack of trying here in the UK) Most Systems Analysis work Small software systems Skunkworks/experimental/R&D work Highly specialist work (audio/video/automotive/crypto) What would be outsourced to cheaper countries - probably the following: Large projects with well understood requirements and architecture Back-office work where another department (eg, call center) is outsourced Note I make no claims about the relative skills of different nations developers - I'm working on the assumption that each nations developers have the same skill levels - I'm more thinking about the logistics and management of outsourcing software work. Of course, UK devs are the best in the world ;P -- Ian Darling If I was any more loopy, I'd be infinite.
Modesty forbids me agreeing :-O Elaine (shy fluffy tigress) The tigress is here :-D
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It seems to me that a lot of people are getting worked up over something that isn't really all that important. There will always be a need for "local" development workers, purely because a lot of software jobs can't be outsourced abroad easily: Government (not for the Labour governments lack of trying here in the UK) Most Systems Analysis work Small software systems Skunkworks/experimental/R&D work Highly specialist work (audio/video/automotive/crypto) What would be outsourced to cheaper countries - probably the following: Large projects with well understood requirements and architecture Back-office work where another department (eg, call center) is outsourced Note I make no claims about the relative skills of different nations developers - I'm working on the assumption that each nations developers have the same skill levels - I'm more thinking about the logistics and management of outsourcing software work. Of course, UK devs are the best in the world ;P -- Ian Darling If I was any more loopy, I'd be infinite.
Hi, Take a look at the freelancer sites (such as www.elance.com) and not say "We did not see it". Read project descriptions and look at their result prices. Peoples worked there have very-very small money. They have educatuion and experience same as for you. You can with them compete? Take real look
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Tell that to the cow-worshipping moron I talked to at NetGear on Wednesday. I had to repeat everything I said two or three times. He also apparently didn't understand "send me an email", because two days later, I still don't have one (after he guaranteed I'd get it). Lastly, it's his job to learn something that's identifiable as conversant english since 90% of the customers he's going to be dealing with will be from the US. It certainly isn't my job to learn his language. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
You think what you abrupt? All that you have made in life is that that you were born in the right country. !!! I was read all your postings and I want say to you personally - idiot.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: If you f***ers would learn proper english and speak without an accent when I call tech support, I wouldn't mind so much. Actually, they are showing they can speak another language. You have trouble listening to another accent.
// Quantum sort algorithm implementation
while (!sorted)
;This fascist application!!!!!!!!!!!
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Modesty forbids me agreeing :-O Elaine (shy fluffy tigress) The tigress is here :-D
Yaeh, Elaine:)
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Hi, Take a look at the freelancer sites (such as www.elance.com) and not say "We did not see it". Read project descriptions and look at their result prices. Peoples worked there have very-very small money. They have educatuion and experience same as for you. You can with them compete? Take real look
Given you have to be a elance member to look at the projects, I'm afraid I can't read them. But either way, yes - it's always possible to compete. -- Ian Darling If I was any more loopy, I'd be infinite.
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The outsourcing issue is a complex one. From the clients viewpoint you can see how outsourcing makes financial sense. However, outsourcing software development to India is a very different proposition to outsourcing, say, T-Shirt production. If I am a clothes manufacturer, I could ship a ton of cloth and materials to a factory in India, get in a load of cheap labour, and run off thousands of garments at a very low production cost. The quality control is easy, the production job is easy. I say 'There's a pile of material, I want 10,000 high quality T-Shirts produced within the next month' Software development is different. Most large software development projects require very close consultation with the client, and a good understanding of the business in question (finance, retailing etc.) The requirements are not always very clear, and the development process is often iterative sequential. With the outsourcing model, while the client may gain financially in the short term, the long-term benefit is questionable. When things go wrong, when there is a problem in the quality of the product, or when there is a communications failure or misunderstanding of requirements the whole model falls apart. Not to mention the language barrier. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: When things go wrong, when there is a problem in the quality of the product, or when there is a communications failure or misunderstanding of requirements the whole model falls apart. As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. http://www.nasscom.org/artdisplay.asp?cat_id=35[^] Read the quotes from Bill, Larry on India: http://www.nasscom.org/artdisplay.asp?cat_id=27[^]
"Whidbey"..."Orcas"...Roadmap
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
Tell that to the cow-worshipping moron I talked to at NetGear on Wednesday. I had to repeat everything I said two or three times. He also apparently didn't understand "send me an email", because two days later, I still don't have one (after he guaranteed I'd get it). Lastly, it's his job to learn something that's identifiable as conversant english since 90% of the customers he's going to be dealing with will be from the US. It certainly isn't my job to learn his language. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Tell that to the cow-worshipping moron How you know that he is from India? He could be from any other country. :suss:
"Whidbey"..."Orcas"...Roadmap
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
You think what you abrupt? All that you have made in life is that that you were born in the right country. !!! I was read all your postings and I want say to you personally - idiot.
Somebody NEW wrote: You think what you abrupt? That's english and german, right? jhaga --------------------------------- Thus the metric system did not really catch on in the States, unless you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet. -Dave Barry-
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John Honan wrote: When things go wrong, when there is a problem in the quality of the product, or when there is a communications failure or misunderstanding of requirements the whole model falls apart. As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. http://www.nasscom.org/artdisplay.asp?cat_id=35[^] Read the quotes from Bill, Larry on India: http://www.nasscom.org/artdisplay.asp?cat_id=27[^]
"Whidbey"..."Orcas"...Roadmap
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. I could find a certified spade engineer to build me a high-quality spade. That spade will meet or exceed all the industry standard quality measurements for spades. I hand it to my client; and it turns out what he really wanted was a bucket. I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. John www.silveronion.com[^]
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You think what you abrupt? All that you have made in life is that that you were born in the right country. !!! I was read all your postings and I want say to you personally - idiot.
I'm surprised you can form a complete thought much less type out something with english words in it. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Kant wrote: As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. I could find a certified spade engineer to build me a high-quality spade. That spade will meet or exceed all the industry standard quality measurements for spades. I hand it to my client; and it turns out what he really wanted was a bucket. I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. I agree with what you saying. But factor is good quality, abundance of IT knowledge employess and above all for less $. I give you an example, when I was in India we worked on project for a US firm. As you know the time difference (10 1/2 hrs) between India and USA, we worked on the project while it's night in US. By our time in the evening (which is morning in US) we deliver the fresh build to US and so that they test it and report any bugs back to US. So it's like work goes on around the clock. So the project which takes 6 months to complete in US and can be completed within 3 months. When Hardware components industry (in Taiwan, China...) can succeed, why not software outsourcing? I'm puzzled here. :confused:
"Whidbey"..."Orcas"...Roadmap
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
Unlike rednecks.... The tigress is here :-D
At least you can understand rednecks because they don't sound like they're choking down curry in mid-sentence. Of course, you do have to deal with the occasional burp and/or fart... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Kant wrote: As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. I could find a certified spade engineer to build me a high-quality spade. That spade will meet or exceed all the industry standard quality measurements for spades. I hand it to my client; and it turns out what he really wanted was a bucket. I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. Exactly one of the points I was trying to make (only you said it better :-)) A lot of IT houses do the whole shebang for software - right from analysis to implementation and deployment and maintenance and support. When a project is up for grabs, no company will ship a skilled Indian Systems Analyst (or more) to the UK, put him up for the duration of the Analysis phase in a hotel, then ship him back so his colleagues can implement the software, and then ship the deployment team over from India to install it - it'll end up costing more (potentially), and you lose the ability to communicate, at least partially due to timezone and language issues (not everyone speaks English and/or Indian). Even if you do outsource the development work, you've still got to have some local staff to do the day-to-day business with the company the project is for. And when dealing with some XP-style methodologies where you bring the customer on-site, how do you do that if they are based in a different country? Most customer aren't going to fancy a trip abroad each week just so they can go over user stories with the development team. That's why I think that you can only properly outsource well understood application development, and only where the inevitable loss of communication isn't much of an issue. -- Ian Darling If I was any more loopy, I'd be infinite.
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John Honan wrote: What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. I agree with what you saying. But factor is good quality, abundance of IT knowledge employess and above all for less $. I give you an example, when I was in India we worked on project for a US firm. As you know the time difference (10 1/2 hrs) between India and USA, we worked on the project while it's night in US. By our time in the evening (which is morning in US) we deliver the fresh build to US and so that they test it and report any bugs back to US. So it's like work goes on around the clock. So the project which takes 6 months to complete in US and can be completed within 3 months. When Hardware components industry (in Taiwan, China...) can succeed, why not software outsourcing? I'm puzzled here. :confused:
"Whidbey"..."Orcas"...Roadmap
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: When Hardware components industry (in Taiwan, China...) can succeed, why not software outsourcing? I'm puzzled here. Hardware components are tangible. You can test the quality, measure the rate of production and figure out how many workers you need on the line. Software is intangible. It is difficult to measure the progress of a software project, it is difficult to ascertain that user requirements have been met, more hands on the keyboard does not mean the code will be written quicker. You cannot apply production line methods to software. Software Engineering is not an exact science. John www.silveronion.com[^]
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The ideas of freedom, liberty and leadership of the free world lay on fearless and independent individuals, who are ready to decidate their life to innovation and progress of man kind on all levels of science. This attitude created the myth of the "west". While the rest of the world was riding horses, some even walking on their bare foot; Henry Ford has opened worlds' first car production serial line. When the rest of the world was using blackboards and armada of buerocracts and accountants to create economic models, two pioneers were writing VisiCalc for worlds' first personal computer. This is why common people on the west today enjoy goods, that any emperor would consider luxury just a hundred years ago. By leading the world the west also develops it. Poverty is being eliminated, environment is being saved - as a result of western style capitalism. Just imagine what would happen to our planet if India, China, and all other huge countries in the world would have to go through industrial revolution again. Instead, they can buy more economic and cleaner technologies from the west and spare the environment. But how do they pay for these technologies? Well, poor and undeveloped countries offer what they have - natural resources and technologies that they've already mastered. At competitive prices. This benefits us and it benefits them. There is nothing sacret about the west except our unique combination of liberty, democracy, captialism and hard work. This is the only wheel that keeps us going on. So far - instead of trying to irrationally stop this wheel we've lead the way with new technologies. When textile industry was outsourced to 3rd world, we were exporting electronics, that the producers needed to raise productivity. When electronics was outsourced to Asia, we were developing the IT. So I dont expect the rational and reasonable people to try to stop this wheel now, when a relatively small part of IT (software production that can be outsourced - which is relatively small part of even software production itself) is being outsourced to the 3rd world. There are new fields to be explored and exploited. Genetics, space exploration, pharmacy, and medicine. And the cycle will repeat...if it doesn't then nothing changes but roles switch. We're safe as long as we can all say - may the best man win and feel good about it. Tomaz
Well said. Now if I could just think up a product that the developing world will perceive as a 'must have' tool...:-D
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
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Tell that to the cow-worshipping moron I talked to at NetGear on Wednesday. I had to repeat everything I said two or three times. He also apparently didn't understand "send me an email", because two days later, I still don't have one (after he guaranteed I'd get it). Lastly, it's his job to learn something that's identifiable as conversant english since 90% of the customers he's going to be dealing with will be from the US. It certainly isn't my job to learn his language. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
That's a longtime complaint I've had with tech support. Many years ago I tried using the InnocuLAN products for my company. They come as a set - Antivirus, Firewall, and some other crap bundled with it - all in identical boxes, and lacking any instructions whatsoever. I called for installation support, and discovered that my 'assigned' support engineer couldn't speak or understand a word of English. Oh, he attempted it - badly - with incomprehensible diction and a heavy accent that no one in our company was capable of deciphering (I let the Pres and the VP try talking to him, just to save my butt). I tried to get around it for months, but it was impossible for me to speak to anyone but my assigned rep. Policy, you know... Eventually I was forced to give up, and had to write off the several thousand dollars the products cost as an expensive learning experience. Computer Associates isn't the only company I've dealt with having this problem, and it's becoming more, not less common. But they were the most expensive I've dealt with, and I will never again recommend or buy any of their many popular enterprise products because of this experience.
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
- Proposed Sign at CA/AZ Border -
At least you can understand rednecks because they don't sound like they're choking down curry in mid-sentence. Of course, you do have to deal with the occasional burp and/or fart... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
It helps to offer the redneck a beer. They speak more clearly, perhaps even reason more lucidly, when slightly intoxicated. Besides, just offering a beer assures him that you're friendly. You might want to pet his dog for good measure...
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
- Proposed Sign at CA/AZ Border
