Why
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... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
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... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
Navin wrote: ... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. Because now the economy is depressed, and people need to find some(one/thing) to blame. Just like RIAA is doing with P2P.
// Quantum sort algorithm implementation
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... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
1. Because it sucks for the people losing their jobs. 2. Because now it seems to be happening a lot more than before. Regards, Alvaro
If you want to get to the top, prepare to kiss a lot of bottom. -- despair.com
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Navin wrote: ... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. Because now the economy is depressed, and people need to find some(one/thing) to blame. Just like RIAA is doing with P2P.
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;Yes, and here's an interesting article[^] related to the RIAA. Regards, Alvaro
If you want to get to the top, prepare to kiss a lot of bottom. -- despair.com
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Yes, and here's an interesting article[^] related to the RIAA. Regards, Alvaro
If you want to get to the top, prepare to kiss a lot of bottom. -- despair.com
Repost! By 6 minutes :)
// Quantum sort algorithm implementation
while (!sorted)
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... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
It's happenning far more frequently now, and those who lost jobs because of it are finding that their unemployment benefits are running out.
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
- Proposed Sign at CA/AZ Border -
... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
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1. Because it sucks for the people losing their jobs. 2. Because now it seems to be happening a lot more than before. Regards, Alvaro
If you want to get to the top, prepare to kiss a lot of bottom. -- despair.com
I am curious though. If you were the owner of a company and given the choice of getting the same work done but being able to pay lower wages for it what would you do? I am not so sure who are the bad guys here. - The company owners who want to be able to make a profit, or - The US developers who are obviously not keeping their salaries competitive, or - The off-shore companies who are cutting prices to attract business, or - Any others???? When you go out to buy something and find the exact same thing for sale at two different places, but one is half the cost of the other, what pone do you buy? Turn it around like this… When you go into an interview to basically put your product on the market for sale, do you offer a competitive price (wage)? I am waiting to start seeing the time when companies put help wanted adds in the papers advertising jobs and asking that the applicants start putting in bids for their salaries. Please don’t misunderstand me, I hate to see people loose jobs (having been their myself a few times) but you HAVE to ask yourself what you would do in the same situation. Does it SUCK? YES! Is it FAIR? NO! What would YOU do? Fill in the blank ______________
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Repost! By 6 minutes :)
// Quantum sort algorithm implementation
while (!sorted)
;:omg: I should have clicked on your link. :) Regards, Alvaro
If you want to get to the top, prepare to kiss a lot of bottom. -- despair.com
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I am curious though. If you were the owner of a company and given the choice of getting the same work done but being able to pay lower wages for it what would you do? I am not so sure who are the bad guys here. - The company owners who want to be able to make a profit, or - The US developers who are obviously not keeping their salaries competitive, or - The off-shore companies who are cutting prices to attract business, or - Any others???? When you go out to buy something and find the exact same thing for sale at two different places, but one is half the cost of the other, what pone do you buy? Turn it around like this… When you go into an interview to basically put your product on the market for sale, do you offer a competitive price (wage)? I am waiting to start seeing the time when companies put help wanted adds in the papers advertising jobs and asking that the applicants start putting in bids for their salaries. Please don’t misunderstand me, I hate to see people loose jobs (having been their myself a few times) but you HAVE to ask yourself what you would do in the same situation. Does it SUCK? YES! Is it FAIR? NO! What would YOU do? Fill in the blank ______________
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
There are fallacies in your argument. You assume that a company can get the same quality of work done in the US as in China or India. You assume that the work done by a 110K worker in Palo Alto is the same as a 2k worker in Bangkok, and I have heard other managers state this, but, I have know many horror stories for companies who got involved in offshore development ranging from broken contracts in the middle of projects to theft of intellectual property. Many of the best programmers in those countries leave for other countries because of their skills. We will see in the future if software engineering becomes a commodity like manufacturing that can be done anywhere in the world or if this model doesn't work in this field.
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There are fallacies in your argument. You assume that a company can get the same quality of work done in the US as in China or India. You assume that the work done by a 110K worker in Palo Alto is the same as a 2k worker in Bangkok, and I have heard other managers state this, but, I have know many horror stories for companies who got involved in offshore development ranging from broken contracts in the middle of projects to theft of intellectual property. Many of the best programmers in those countries leave for other countries because of their skills. We will see in the future if software engineering becomes a commodity like manufacturing that can be done anywhere in the world or if this model doesn't work in this field.
I agree to all the points you make here. But, these all appear to be problems with the people making the decisions to outsource off-shore, not the business model itself. Let's turn the tables around a bit. What would happen if let's say one entire state wanted to start to become a tech capitol of the USA. It starts to offer software developers 0% loans for houses, great conditions, generous relocation packages, etc… Companies in other states start to see this and decide that they are going to move their development to companies in that state. Whose fault is that? Now, to address all the bad things that can happen (IP Theft, contract breach, substandard work, etc…) These are things that can happen anywhere, they are just harder to deal with off-shore. Any company that does not cover themselves and be prepared for these potential problems as part of the plan is not doing all their homework.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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There are fallacies in your argument. You assume that a company can get the same quality of work done in the US as in China or India. You assume that the work done by a 110K worker in Palo Alto is the same as a 2k worker in Bangkok, and I have heard other managers state this, but, I have know many horror stories for companies who got involved in offshore development ranging from broken contracts in the middle of projects to theft of intellectual property. Many of the best programmers in those countries leave for other countries because of their skills. We will see in the future if software engineering becomes a commodity like manufacturing that can be done anywhere in the world or if this model doesn't work in this field.
Jeffster wrote: You assume that a company can get the same quality of work done in the US as in China or India. You assume that the work done by a 110K worker in Palo Alto is the same as a 2k worker in Bangkok When you compare people from different countries, with different currencies, economies, living standards, etc, can you really compare them on the basis of their salary? I don't think so. For example, the value (in terms of purchasing power, how does it compare with your peers, what is the standard of living in your area, etc) of $2k in Bangkok might be the same as $110k in Palo Alto. The assumption that a worker from India or China can do better quality work than an American one is false. The assumption that a worker from the US can do better quality work than an Indian or Chinese is also false. Your talent is not determined by which country you are born in. It depends from person to person. To those who think that an American making $110k is automatically better than his Indian or Chinese counterpart making $2k, I would ask them to come and work in India for a while. If they make more than what a similarly qualified Indian makes, then I'll consider him more talented, otherwise not. Comparison based on salaries is not only unfair, it gives you an incorrect picture.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Jeffster wrote: You assume that a company can get the same quality of work done in the US as in China or India. You assume that the work done by a 110K worker in Palo Alto is the same as a 2k worker in Bangkok When you compare people from different countries, with different currencies, economies, living standards, etc, can you really compare them on the basis of their salary? I don't think so. For example, the value (in terms of purchasing power, how does it compare with your peers, what is the standard of living in your area, etc) of $2k in Bangkok might be the same as $110k in Palo Alto. The assumption that a worker from India or China can do better quality work than an American one is false. The assumption that a worker from the US can do better quality work than an Indian or Chinese is also false. Your talent is not determined by which country you are born in. It depends from person to person. To those who think that an American making $110k is automatically better than his Indian or Chinese counterpart making $2k, I would ask them to come and work in India for a while. If they make more than what a similarly qualified Indian makes, then I'll consider him more talented, otherwise not. Comparison based on salaries is not only unfair, it gives you an incorrect picture.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaI was going to say something myself, but figured you'd step in sooner or later. :)
David Wulff
"Yeah, ohh, ahh. That's how it always starts. But then later there's running, and screaming." -- Jeff Goldblum, The Lost World.
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I am curious though. If you were the owner of a company and given the choice of getting the same work done but being able to pay lower wages for it what would you do? I am not so sure who are the bad guys here. - The company owners who want to be able to make a profit, or - The US developers who are obviously not keeping their salaries competitive, or - The off-shore companies who are cutting prices to attract business, or - Any others???? When you go out to buy something and find the exact same thing for sale at two different places, but one is half the cost of the other, what pone do you buy? Turn it around like this… When you go into an interview to basically put your product on the market for sale, do you offer a competitive price (wage)? I am waiting to start seeing the time when companies put help wanted adds in the papers advertising jobs and asking that the applicants start putting in bids for their salaries. Please don’t misunderstand me, I hate to see people loose jobs (having been their myself a few times) but you HAVE to ask yourself what you would do in the same situation. Does it SUCK? YES! Is it FAIR? NO! What would YOU do? Fill in the blank ______________
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
There is no way you can transfer the culture. Yes, sure commodity portion of programming will be assembled offshore, and probably it should be. However, core components of any business should be developed at home and/or closer to customer. The problem is, top and not technical management currently buying marketing hype coming from MSFT and killing/closing all kind of developments, some of real value: just in order to move them offshore... Time will tell... "...Ability to type is not enough to become a Programmer. Unless you type in VB. But then again you have to type really fast..." Me
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Jeffster wrote: You assume that a company can get the same quality of work done in the US as in China or India. You assume that the work done by a 110K worker in Palo Alto is the same as a 2k worker in Bangkok When you compare people from different countries, with different currencies, economies, living standards, etc, can you really compare them on the basis of their salary? I don't think so. For example, the value (in terms of purchasing power, how does it compare with your peers, what is the standard of living in your area, etc) of $2k in Bangkok might be the same as $110k in Palo Alto. The assumption that a worker from India or China can do better quality work than an American one is false. The assumption that a worker from the US can do better quality work than an Indian or Chinese is also false. Your talent is not determined by which country you are born in. It depends from person to person. To those who think that an American making $110k is automatically better than his Indian or Chinese counterpart making $2k, I would ask them to come and work in India for a while. If they make more than what a similarly qualified Indian makes, then I'll consider him more talented, otherwise not. Comparison based on salaries is not only unfair, it gives you an incorrect picture.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaTo those who think that an American making $110k is automatically better than his Indian or Chinese counterpart making $2k, I would ask them to come and work in India for a while. If they make more than what a similarly qualified Indian makes, then I'll consider him more talented, otherwise not. You are right: American making $110k is not automatically better than his Indian or Chinese counterpart making $2k: Million Americans making $110k each is automatically better than there Million Indian or Chinese counterpart making $2k each. "...Ability to type is not enough to become a Programmer. Unless you type in VB. But then again you have to type really fast..." Me
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... the heck have there been SO many posts recently about jobs moving "offshore"? It's not like this is new news, it's been happening for years. "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
Because the pie is a lot smaller now that it used to be. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
I am curious though. If you were the owner of a company and given the choice of getting the same work done but being able to pay lower wages for it what would you do? I am not so sure who are the bad guys here. - The company owners who want to be able to make a profit, or - The US developers who are obviously not keeping their salaries competitive, or - The off-shore companies who are cutting prices to attract business, or - Any others???? When you go out to buy something and find the exact same thing for sale at two different places, but one is half the cost of the other, what pone do you buy? Turn it around like this… When you go into an interview to basically put your product on the market for sale, do you offer a competitive price (wage)? I am waiting to start seeing the time when companies put help wanted adds in the papers advertising jobs and asking that the applicants start putting in bids for their salaries. Please don’t misunderstand me, I hate to see people loose jobs (having been their myself a few times) but you HAVE to ask yourself what you would do in the same situation. Does it SUCK? YES! Is it FAIR? NO! What would YOU do? Fill in the blank ______________
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
Ray Cassick wrote: If you were the owner of a company and given the choice of getting the same work done but being able to pay lower wages for it what would you do? you are never given that choice. it's easier for management to fire everyone and bring on new offshore people than it is to ask all the employees to take a 60% pay cut - or else. -c CheeseWeasle
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I was going to say something myself, but figured you'd step in sooner or later. :)
David Wulff
"Yeah, ohh, ahh. That's how it always starts. But then later there's running, and screaming." -- Jeff Goldblum, The Lost World.
Am I so obvious and predictable? :laugh: Guess I am.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa