$1 Trillion Dollars
-
>Then, do well to separate Islam from this act. I hope you're not saying Islam cannot be seperated from this act. I personally think Islam is a pile of garbage. A follower of Islam offered to explain his views to me and backed out when he found out I was a Christian, thus re-enforcing my view. Nevertheless, being plain wrong in my eyes does not put me in a position to make gross generalisations based on the actions of a few, or to try and deny these people the *right* to be wrong, if you see what I mean. You're an intolerant bastard aren't you. This thread is a hair away from being tossed in the shitter, but I think if we keep it at least a little lucid it will be worthwhile. First, you can hardly extrapolate from the fact that a single individual wasn't up to facing you off in public that Islam wasn't up to the challenge. This is just utterly ridiculous. Further, I think it serves no purpose to draw us and them lines, really. If we consider ourselves defendants of a free nation and a free world, and without question that World includes Christians, Muslims, Jews and others, then it's counter-productive to start cutting away at the fabric of what we've built. The Islamic people want us to understand that these acts of violence are not sanctioned by their religion or their people in general. I for one believe them. I have known many Islamic people in my life and know them to be honorable, trustworthy and ethical. Often to a level exceeding that of their community. Islamic fundamentalists alarm and concern me. Those intolerant of the religions of others have no place on the World stage, and I personally will fight against them, by whatever means necessary. Although I openly admit that this is a fear that I harbour, I will not prejudge a fellow man. Let him grow in his understanding of what the World expects of him, and I hope we discover a future that allows us all to happily grow and prosper.
>Then, do well to separate Islam from this act. I hope you're not saying Islam cannot be seperated from this act. I personally think Islam is a pile of garbage. A follower of Islam offered to explain his views to me and backed out when he found out I was a Christian, thus re-enforcing my view. Nevertheless, being plain wrong in my eyes does not put me in a position to make gross generalisations based on the actions of a few, or to try and deny these people the *right* to be wrong, if you see what I mean. You're an intolerant bastard aren't you. This thread is a hair away from being tossed in the sh*tter, but I think if we keep it at least a little lucid it will be worthwhile. I wondered how long it would manage to continue... I was actually trying to point out that the fact that I disagree with Islam does not give me the right to suggest people should be judged by their belief in it, or disallowed the option. And the only person with the luxury of complete tolerance is an athiest. As soon as I believe in God, it means I reject other views as to who He might be than my own, or at least require proof to convince me to change my views. That's just logical. First, you can hardly extrapolate from the fact that a single individual wasn't up to facing you off in public that Islam wasn't up to the challenge. This is just utterly ridiculous. I said it strengthened my view, not formed it. Further, I think it serves no purpose to draw us and them lines, really. If we consider ourselves defendants of a free nation and a free world, and without question that World includes Christians, Muslims, Jews and others, then it's counter-productive to start cutting away at the fabric of what we've built. This thread started by my trying to say the same thing as your first sentence. Pursuit of justice for this crime should have no religious overtones, because it's not about that, it's about a heinous act that would be no more or less so regardless of the religious ideas of the persons involved. The Islamic people want us to understand that these acts of violence are not sanctioned by their religion or their people in general. I for one believe them. I have known many Islamic people in my life and know them to be honorable, trustworthy and ethical. Often to a level exceeding that of their community. I'm sure they are - again you'll find me trying to say the same thing in several threads here. Islamic fundamentalists alarm and concern me. Those intolerant of the reli
-
>Then, do well to separate Islam from this act. I hope you're not saying Islam cannot be seperated from this act. I personally think Islam is a pile of garbage. A follower of Islam offered to explain his views to me and backed out when he found out I was a Christian, thus re-enforcing my view. Nevertheless, being plain wrong in my eyes does not put me in a position to make gross generalisations based on the actions of a few, or to try and deny these people the *right* to be wrong, if you see what I mean. You're an intolerant bastard aren't you. This thread is a hair away from being tossed in the sh*tter, but I think if we keep it at least a little lucid it will be worthwhile. I wondered how long it would manage to continue... I was actually trying to point out that the fact that I disagree with Islam does not give me the right to suggest people should be judged by their belief in it, or disallowed the option. And the only person with the luxury of complete tolerance is an athiest. As soon as I believe in God, it means I reject other views as to who He might be than my own, or at least require proof to convince me to change my views. That's just logical. First, you can hardly extrapolate from the fact that a single individual wasn't up to facing you off in public that Islam wasn't up to the challenge. This is just utterly ridiculous. I said it strengthened my view, not formed it. Further, I think it serves no purpose to draw us and them lines, really. If we consider ourselves defendants of a free nation and a free world, and without question that World includes Christians, Muslims, Jews and others, then it's counter-productive to start cutting away at the fabric of what we've built. This thread started by my trying to say the same thing as your first sentence. Pursuit of justice for this crime should have no religious overtones, because it's not about that, it's about a heinous act that would be no more or less so regardless of the religious ideas of the persons involved. The Islamic people want us to understand that these acts of violence are not sanctioned by their religion or their people in general. I for one believe them. I have known many Islamic people in my life and know them to be honorable, trustworthy and ethical. Often to a level exceeding that of their community. I'm sure they are - again you'll find me trying to say the same thing in several threads here. Islamic fundamentalists alarm and concern me. Those intolerant of the reli
Christian, As much as this alarms me to say... I think we're of the same mind. Eeek. David
-
Well, I believe in God and it is not based on the teachings of any spiritual leader-it is personal. As I have stated, I do not belong to any religious sect. I have a personal relationship with my Father, God-if that makes you classify me to a so-called religious sect-that is your problem. Just as in the Bible, believers in Jesus Christ never called themselves Christians-people saw there life and classified them as Christian. I warn you in advance that if you want to argue with me about the Bible you'll probably find you'll get more than you bargained for. 1/ There WERE no Christians while Jesus was alive. Jesus spoke about the need for His death and resurrection for the Holy Spirit to be poured out, and that this was the point of His coming. This occured in Acts 2, which is when the church began. Peter stood up and obeyed Jesus' command to him - when you are *converted*, strengthen the brethren. They were called Christians sometime after that, but who cares about a name or a label ? They became Christians on the day of Pentecost. A lot of Bible types fulfilled by that, if you're interested. The Bible also makes clear that God ordained the idea of the church for the encouragement and benefit of it's members. There is no model in the Bible or Jesus' life for people speaking of their 'personal relationship' and boasting that they belong to no religious groups. If you are, however, offended by my saying God bless America then let me repeat it-God bless Americans and USA I'm not offended, I'm just concerned as to how many other narrow minded people will fail to realise they are behaving in the same way as the people they oppose. I could care less, your saying it does not make it so, or not so. Omar declared jihad, let the Christians sit and say they do not care or have a God-I have, and I will call on Him till the blood of those innocent souls are accounted for. So in other words God is your personal army ? Why does He care only for innocent American souls ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well, it seems you are going of the bar. I think the Americans and those of us affected will welcome sympathizers but they will not determine what do to and how it should be done. > I warn you in advance that if you want to argue with me about the > Bible you'll probably find you'll get more than you bargained for. Being one Book, I read almost every morning-I will never argue with you on it. > There WERE no Christians while Jesus was alive. Since He is still ALIVE, we should not expect Christians then :(( Oh! Christian, you are really entertaining me :-) Best regards, Paul. Paul Selormey, Bsc (Elect Eng), MSc (Mobile Communication) is currently Windows open source developer in Japan, and open for programming contract anywhere!
-
Well, it seems you are going of the bar. I think the Americans and those of us affected will welcome sympathizers but they will not determine what do to and how it should be done. > I warn you in advance that if you want to argue with me about the > Bible you'll probably find you'll get more than you bargained for. Being one Book, I read almost every morning-I will never argue with you on it. > There WERE no Christians while Jesus was alive. Since He is still ALIVE, we should not expect Christians then :(( Oh! Christian, you are really entertaining me :-) Best regards, Paul. Paul Selormey, Bsc (Elect Eng), MSc (Mobile Communication) is currently Windows open source developer in Japan, and open for programming contract anywhere!
If you're going to be pedantic about a turn of phrase and ignore everything I say that strikes home, I think we're done. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
-
> Bloody hell - a few more like this guy and we'll be to war in > no time. Bloody hell? Exactly! four of my country men were killed by someone who claims he was defending god. If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. Over 5000 blood, and you still not do not admit it is war? > Lets not confuse religion and politics Then, do well to separate Islam from this act. Paul Selormey, Bsc (Elect Eng), MSc (Mobile Communication) is currently Windows open source developer in Japan, and open for programming contract anywhere!
If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. You claim to read the Bible daily (in a previous post) which I do not do, so perhaps you could explain to me what I don't seem to get. Many Christians, such as my President, who claim to take Jesus very seriously seem to believe that He didn't really mean what he said in the Sermon on the Mount about "resist not evil," "turn to him the other [cheek] also," or "love your enemies." Martin Luther King was very eloquent in his exegesis of these verses. King would have agreed with you about "it is time to give him more," but he would have told you that it's our blood, not bin Laden's, that should be shed. According to King, Jesus wants us to lay down our lives bearing witness to the terrorists' cruelty, not for us to damn ourselves by taking others' lives in revenge. Could you explain where King (or Jesus) is wrong?
-
I just wanted to say that I'm totally astonished that 20 guys with pocket knives could wreak a Trillion dollars worth of damage. Totally astonished. Here's my math: $680B = 684 point loss on the Dow $100B = Central bank distributions to stabilize USD $40B Reconstruction of New York, Civilian Defense, etc. (referred to as "down payment," so there's more to come) $25B Bailout Package for Airlines (in the US only, we're talking about a proportional amount in Canada) $ ?B Tax refund incentive package And that's just the US, the Toronto Stock exchange dropped 6%, I'm sure most world exchanges did. So $845B after a week, plus more to come. It's hard to believe that a nuclear attack would have been any more effective. David
I've really tried to stay out of these discussions in the past week. There was part of this that I've seen repeated frequently, and I just wanted to voice my disagreement with it. It's not that it was 20 guys with pocket knives. It's looking very much like it was 20 guys with pocket knives, several hundred direct support personnel, a worldwide network of contacts, and one or more countries providing covert or overt military, financial, and intelligence support.
-
If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. You claim to read the Bible daily (in a previous post) which I do not do, so perhaps you could explain to me what I don't seem to get. Many Christians, such as my President, who claim to take Jesus very seriously seem to believe that He didn't really mean what he said in the Sermon on the Mount about "resist not evil," "turn to him the other [cheek] also," or "love your enemies." Martin Luther King was very eloquent in his exegesis of these verses. King would have agreed with you about "it is time to give him more," but he would have told you that it's our blood, not bin Laden's, that should be shed. According to King, Jesus wants us to lay down our lives bearing witness to the terrorists' cruelty, not for us to damn ourselves by taking others' lives in revenge. Could you explain where King (or Jesus) is wrong?
Hello Jonathan, You have spoken wisdom. The only problem is that Jesus did not say there is not going to be war. And if there is war, his followers should not defend themselves. Kenya, Tanzania, USA, which country is next? Killing a soul in a different country is an invitation to war. No amount of soft Christian tune will stop it, enough is enough. > Jesus wants us to lay down our lives bearing witness to the > terrorists' cruelty.. Oh! wisdom, pure wisdom. Unfortunately, it is not an issue of not laying down our lives. If the terrorist wanted to kill "Christians" for "Christianity", I think this statement will apply. If the terrorist wanted to kill "Non-Christians", and "Christians" have the chance it will be logical to say lay down your life. If, however, the terrorist is killing to protect his religion-it will be foolish to lay down you life and say oh please kill me and be satisfied. Now, tell me-if a mad man enters your house (assumming you are married with children) and started killing your children one by one you will as a Christian tell him to go on, kill all and yourself too. Well, this world is not ruled by "Christian" rules. > not for us to damn ourselves by taking others' lives in revenge. Again, it makes a lot of sense. The USA army is going to do just this, those officers will lay down their lives to protect their fellow Americans and others. Is this not what Jesus is saying? :(( Best regards, Paul. Best regards, Paul. Paul Selormey, Bsc (Elect Eng), MSc (Mobile Communication) is currently Windows open source developer in Japan, and open for programming contract anywhere!
-
... i think we're talking about different Gods here. :) -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
... i think we're talking about different Gods here. Actually, no. I was reading up on the Islamic religion and this stuff about the 3rd Jihaad (against the non-believers). One prophet specifically mentioned Christianity and Judaism (sp?) as being religions they should not war against and actually protect. He said that we all worship the same god, but just call him different names. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
-
If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. You claim to read the Bible daily (in a previous post) which I do not do, so perhaps you could explain to me what I don't seem to get. Many Christians, such as my President, who claim to take Jesus very seriously seem to believe that He didn't really mean what he said in the Sermon on the Mount about "resist not evil," "turn to him the other [cheek] also," or "love your enemies." Martin Luther King was very eloquent in his exegesis of these verses. King would have agreed with you about "it is time to give him more," but he would have told you that it's our blood, not bin Laden's, that should be shed. According to King, Jesus wants us to lay down our lives bearing witness to the terrorists' cruelty, not for us to damn ourselves by taking others' lives in revenge. Could you explain where King (or Jesus) is wrong?
The difference is that as an individual I am not supposed to hate the people that have done this. (I am having trouble doing that, but that's my own failing) Where the difference comes in is that we can support our governments in seeking out justice for wrong acts against us. That is, if someone kills my wife, I can seek justice in the courts, even while praying for and choosing to love her killer ( once again, not sure I can actually do that ). In this way, we can support the just retritbution on the wicked through our government. But individual attacks by Christians is wrong. Biblical Support -- Romans 13:3-4 -- For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. When religion and politics help drive the same cart, they tend to drive faster and faster until it is too late to stop when they see the cliff ahead -- Frank Herbert.
-
>> Bloody hell - a few more like this guy and we'll be to war in >> no time. >Bloody hell? Exactly! four of my country men were killed by someone who claims he was defending >god. If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. And this helps, how ? I understand people having a depth of feeling over this, but like I said, 'your god, my god' seems to be the game they are playing, so why join in ? Why not focus on justice regardless of religion ? Otherwise you risk dragging every Islamic nation into war against the US, if you choose to draw the line in that manner. I hate to tell you this sparky, but there's more of them than you, and they most certainly have a populace more prepared and more committed to war. >Over 5000 blood, and you still not do not admit it is war? No, it's not war. A war can be unjust, but it still involves combatants who expect the fight and are trained to defend themselves. What happened last Tuesday was mass murder. I believe it happened to try and precipitate war between East and West, and I believe the sort of opinion you posted helps that cause. >> Lets not confuse religion and politics >Then, do well to separate Islam from this act. I hope you're not saying Islam cannot be seperated from this act. I personally think Islam is a pile of garbage. A follower of Islam offered to explain his views to me and backed out when he found out I was a Christian, thus re-enforcing my view. Nevertheless, being plain wrong in my eyes does not put me in a position to make gross generalisations based on the actions of a few, or to try and deny these people the *right* to be wrong, if you see what I mean. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
> A follower of Islam offered to explain his views to me and backed out when he found out I was a Christian, thus re-enforcing my view. I don't know whom you dealt with, but certainly backing away from your curiosity of Islam wasn't the right thing to do on his part. I am not very well-versed about Koran (having too much fun with the C++ stuff I do), but I know Koran strongly encourages to let others know about the truth and beauty of Islam. Certainly Muslims aren't very proactive on this end and guess what, the terrorist have filled in this vacuum. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
-
>Then, do well to separate Islam from this act. I hope you're not saying Islam cannot be seperated from this act. I personally think Islam is a pile of garbage. A follower of Islam offered to explain his views to me and backed out when he found out I was a Christian, thus re-enforcing my view. Nevertheless, being plain wrong in my eyes does not put me in a position to make gross generalisations based on the actions of a few, or to try and deny these people the *right* to be wrong, if you see what I mean. You're an intolerant bastard aren't you. This thread is a hair away from being tossed in the shitter, but I think if we keep it at least a little lucid it will be worthwhile. First, you can hardly extrapolate from the fact that a single individual wasn't up to facing you off in public that Islam wasn't up to the challenge. This is just utterly ridiculous. Further, I think it serves no purpose to draw us and them lines, really. If we consider ourselves defendants of a free nation and a free world, and without question that World includes Christians, Muslims, Jews and others, then it's counter-productive to start cutting away at the fabric of what we've built. The Islamic people want us to understand that these acts of violence are not sanctioned by their religion or their people in general. I for one believe them. I have known many Islamic people in my life and know them to be honorable, trustworthy and ethical. Often to a level exceeding that of their community. Islamic fundamentalists alarm and concern me. Those intolerant of the religions of others have no place on the World stage, and I personally will fight against them, by whatever means necessary. Although I openly admit that this is a fear that I harbour, I will not prejudge a fellow man. Let him grow in his understanding of what the World expects of him, and I hope we discover a future that allows us all to happily grow and prosper.
"This thread is a hair away from being tossed in the sh*tter, but I think if we keep it at least a little lucid it will be worthwhile." I've been wondering about that also. I've had posts removed that were a hell of a lot more innocuous than what I'm reading here. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
-
I've really tried to stay out of these discussions in the past week. There was part of this that I've seen repeated frequently, and I just wanted to voice my disagreement with it. It's not that it was 20 guys with pocket knives. It's looking very much like it was 20 guys with pocket knives, several hundred direct support personnel, a worldwide network of contacts, and one or more countries providing covert or overt military, financial, and intelligence support.
And all of that coordinated by some lunatic living in a cave in Afghanistan angry because some American troops were on a sacred Saudi sand dune! Amazing, isn't it?!!!! "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
-
... i think we're talking about different Gods here. Actually, no. I was reading up on the Islamic religion and this stuff about the 3rd Jihaad (against the non-believers). One prophet specifically mentioned Christianity and Judaism (sp?) as being religions they should not war against and actually protect. He said that we all worship the same god, but just call him different names. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
You're right, it's part of Islamic faith to believe in Adam, Abaraham, Moses and Jesus as prophets of one God. [Humor Alert] Unfortunately I can not quote from Koran on this now. I can only search MSDN. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
-
... i think we're talking about different Gods here. Actually, no. I was reading up on the Islamic religion and this stuff about the 3rd Jihaad (against the non-believers). One prophet specifically mentioned Christianity and Judaism (sp?) as being religions they should not war against and actually protect. He said that we all worship the same god, but just call him different names. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
That's a common belief, but some theologians from Christianity, and possibly Judaism would say that Islam's God is not the same even though they think it is. Just throwing another wrench in the mix. ;) John
-
Well, I believe in God and it is not based on the teachings of any spiritual leader-it is personal. As I have stated, I do not belong to any religious sect. I have a personal relationship with my Father, God-if that makes you classify me to a so-called religious sect-that is your problem. Just as in the Bible, believers in Jesus Christ never called themselves Christians-people saw there life and classified them as Christian. I warn you in advance that if you want to argue with me about the Bible you'll probably find you'll get more than you bargained for. 1/ There WERE no Christians while Jesus was alive. Jesus spoke about the need for His death and resurrection for the Holy Spirit to be poured out, and that this was the point of His coming. This occured in Acts 2, which is when the church began. Peter stood up and obeyed Jesus' command to him - when you are *converted*, strengthen the brethren. They were called Christians sometime after that, but who cares about a name or a label ? They became Christians on the day of Pentecost. A lot of Bible types fulfilled by that, if you're interested. The Bible also makes clear that God ordained the idea of the church for the encouragement and benefit of it's members. There is no model in the Bible or Jesus' life for people speaking of their 'personal relationship' and boasting that they belong to no religious groups. If you are, however, offended by my saying God bless America then let me repeat it-God bless Americans and USA I'm not offended, I'm just concerned as to how many other narrow minded people will fail to realise they are behaving in the same way as the people they oppose. I could care less, your saying it does not make it so, or not so. Omar declared jihad, let the Christians sit and say they do not care or have a God-I have, and I will call on Him till the blood of those innocent souls are accounted for. So in other words God is your personal army ? Why does He care only for innocent American souls ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
So in other words God is your personal army ? Why does He care only for innocent American souls ? Since Paul didn't answer this for himself, maybe I can take a stab. Sure, some people will think like that, but the majority of Americans are thinking more along the lines of, "God is in the business of protecting people from evil, so he must be on our side in this case." Had the terrorists been from the US and bombed uninvolved people somewhere else, many Americans would still be saying the same type of thing. I think then that Paul wasn't claiming God as "on America's side", but on the side of right, which is where America happens to be right now. (At least I hope that's what he was saying.) John
-
I'm sure they feel the same way. Given that it's probable that those who perpetrated this terrible act felt that their mission was 'holy', wouldn't it just fuel the fire if more people invoked the name of God on the US side ? Why can't we just focus on justice regardless of religion ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Why can't we just focus on justice regardless of religion ? Hmmm... I sort of see why you might say this. But I'm confused. You read the Bible and have said you're a Christian. How can you separate religion and politics while believing that justice comes from God and that we are to "do all to the glory of God"? Did I misunderstand you? :confused: John
-
That's a common belief, but some theologians from Christianity, and possibly Judaism would say that Islam's God is not the same even though they think it is. Just throwing another wrench in the mix. ;) John
You're right. The only difference I know of is the fact that Christians believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Jesus was a son of God, while Muslims believe he was not, he was just like other prophets who was sent by one God to guide humankind. Other than this, there are a lot of similar beliefs that Islam share with Christianity and Judaism. Koran is full of incidents about Jesus and Moses. It talks about the birth of Jesus from Virgin Mary and the persecution of Moses and his clan under the rule of Pharaoh in Egypt. For this, Koran gives special status to Christians and Jews as "People of Books", books being referred to as Bible, Torah, Koran that were sent by one God. Again this is from my rusty memory of theological database. Someone can probably throw more light on this. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
-
If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. You claim to read the Bible daily (in a previous post) which I do not do, so perhaps you could explain to me what I don't seem to get. Many Christians, such as my President, who claim to take Jesus very seriously seem to believe that He didn't really mean what he said in the Sermon on the Mount about "resist not evil," "turn to him the other [cheek] also," or "love your enemies." Martin Luther King was very eloquent in his exegesis of these verses. King would have agreed with you about "it is time to give him more," but he would have told you that it's our blood, not bin Laden's, that should be shed. According to King, Jesus wants us to lay down our lives bearing witness to the terrorists' cruelty, not for us to damn ourselves by taking others' lives in revenge. Could you explain where King (or Jesus) is wrong?
To make the other responses a little more concise, Jesus was speaking to individuals about their relationships with other individuals. Governments (nations) are set up to be defenders of their people, and are given different responsibilities from the Bible. (i.e. Steven Mitcham's reply.) John
-
If that god enjoys innocent blood, it is time to give him more. You claim to read the Bible daily (in a previous post) which I do not do, so perhaps you could explain to me what I don't seem to get. Many Christians, such as my President, who claim to take Jesus very seriously seem to believe that He didn't really mean what he said in the Sermon on the Mount about "resist not evil," "turn to him the other [cheek] also," or "love your enemies." Martin Luther King was very eloquent in his exegesis of these verses. King would have agreed with you about "it is time to give him more," but he would have told you that it's our blood, not bin Laden's, that should be shed. According to King, Jesus wants us to lay down our lives bearing witness to the terrorists' cruelty, not for us to damn ourselves by taking others' lives in revenge. Could you explain where King (or Jesus) is wrong?
It's cool to hang out on a site because of the programming connection and then find a supportive Bible study session here. Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom with me. I don't necessarily agree with all that you have written, but your insights are good ones and help me clarify my own thoughts. The bottom line where I disagree is that regardless what is true of a nation, war still comes down to individual people killing other individual people. To parody the NRA motto, Nations don't kill people, people kill people. My conscience tells me loudly that killing another human is wrong and I believe that if there is anything of the divine within me, it is this voice of conscience. This is not to say that I would not kill to save my own life, or even more to save those of my family. I am imperfect and do many things I know I should not do. But such a situation where I would have to choose between the sin of killing and the sin of standing by and letting murder be done would be like 2 Samuel 6:6-7: "And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.". Uzzah had no way out. It would be disaster for Israel if he allowed the ark to fall off the cart, but this did not mean that he could get away with touching the ark, even to steady it. It is like that with killing. Even if you kill for the best of reasons, you are still marked by it. Paul: Well, this world is not ruled by "Christian" rules. True enough, but we cannot wait until the whole world is ruled by good rules before we decide ourselves to be good. Nor do I condemn those who will lay down their lives in combat to protect me and my freedom. I think they are misguided, however nobly and heroicly so, but their error does not erase the heroism of their sacrifice. Steven quotes Romans 13:3-4 about rulers holding no terror for the good. I don't read this as justifying Christians following those rulers into war. After all, in the previous chapter, Romans 12:18-21: "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but
-
Why can't we just focus on justice regardless of religion ? Hmmm... I sort of see why you might say this. But I'm confused. You read the Bible and have said you're a Christian. How can you separate religion and politics while believing that justice comes from God and that we are to "do all to the glory of God"? Did I misunderstand you? :confused: John
From a personal point of view I don't believe justice comes from anywhere but God, and I don't believe there will be true justice OR peace until Jesus returns. However, until that occurs, I don't see how the cause of Christianity is enhanced by attaching the name of Christ to human concerns. I'm not saying God doesn't care what happened last week, I'm saying that it will only cause division and hatred to make justice for a terrible crime a religious issue when it is very much one of human affairs. Nor does religion enter into it, this is a crime against people and one that is easy regonnised as such without consideration of religion. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.