Linux - More Frequent Posts
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I agree with all of what you say- except for the second para. I *do* use Linux, though not as heavily as Windows. Colleges in India are moving to Linux- almost en masse. Vikram.
Which is worse- ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care! KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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> well compare koffice or whatever to ms office Well, see my bio and then tell me if KOffice or MS Office really matters. :)
But yes, I prefer MS Office.
Vikram.
Which is worse- ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care! KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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I fully agree with you. I always was one of the “Windows zealots”, and defended MS enthusiastically, because I always saw MS doing better software than competitors do. However, from the last year to now, I am shocked how Linux (and all other OSS) seems to be taking large steps getting better, while MS sits there, just looking and doing nothing about it nor significantly improving its products (at least, not at the same pace). The situation seems very similar to when MS gave a kick on IBM on microcomputers two decades ago, and when IBM woke up with OS/2 it was too late. IBM was so big that it never saw from where the kick came from. MS even seems to be easing the path for Linux migration with .NET. Mono is becoming a very viable alternative to .NET and several things work there already. Most of my software is .NET now, and it runs on Linux almost without modification. I am strongly considering getting my home machine running only Linux, as soon as I manage to connect to our ISA-server based VPN. Even a Terminal Services RDP is working well. Man, they even ported to Linux emule, a program with heavy MFC use. Moreover, I have to admit; even on Windows, I do not use IE anymore: I use Mozilla, because it has those cool tabs, a nice googlebar, those mouse gestures I became addicted, and the incremental searching on pages. You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
Daniel Turini wrote: However, from the last year to now, I am shocked how Linux (and all other OSS) seems to be taking large steps getting better, while MS sits there, just looking and doing nothing about it nor significantly improving its products Well, the CIAC[^] doesn't seem to depict such clear picture in Linux's favor. From what I've read the "absolute and inherent" security of Linux and other open source software is somewhat of a myth.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
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I think most of you so far have missed the point. I'm not talking about end-users, I'm talking about the programmers here on CP that are talking about Linux more every day, and whether or not MS has taken notice. Afterall (and regardless of whether or not MS wants to admit it), Windows is a success because of *us*. We all jumped on the bandwagon and programmed our asses off to come up with applications. I think the same thing is about to happen with Linux, and if it does, Windows will become nothing but a memory for most of us. With the talk of a managed API in Longhorn, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a good number of programms that are currently writing for Windows just collectively say "screw this", and move en masse to Linux where the dev tools are free or relatively cheap, and the OS remains fairly static in terms of what it does. I know *I'm* tired of MS changing the rules EVERY YEAR (OLE, no wait, DDE, no wait COM, no wait, DCOM, no wait, .NET) without fixing things that are wrong with the previous year's crap. If more Windows programmers were to make the switch to Linux, I think Linux would become that much better (and viable on the desktop) that much faster. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I know *I'm* tired of MS changing the rules EVERY YEAR (OLE, no wait, DDE, no wait COM, no wait, DCOM, no wait, .NET) If you think that evolution and improvement is bad the I would recommend a job as a COBOL, RP/G or PL/I developer.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
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I fully agree with you. I always was one of the “Windows zealots”, and defended MS enthusiastically, because I always saw MS doing better software than competitors do. However, from the last year to now, I am shocked how Linux (and all other OSS) seems to be taking large steps getting better, while MS sits there, just looking and doing nothing about it nor significantly improving its products (at least, not at the same pace). The situation seems very similar to when MS gave a kick on IBM on microcomputers two decades ago, and when IBM woke up with OS/2 it was too late. IBM was so big that it never saw from where the kick came from. MS even seems to be easing the path for Linux migration with .NET. Mono is becoming a very viable alternative to .NET and several things work there already. Most of my software is .NET now, and it runs on Linux almost without modification. I am strongly considering getting my home machine running only Linux, as soon as I manage to connect to our ISA-server based VPN. Even a Terminal Services RDP is working well. Man, they even ported to Linux emule, a program with heavy MFC use. Moreover, I have to admit; even on Windows, I do not use IE anymore: I use Mozilla, because it has those cool tabs, a nice googlebar, those mouse gestures I became addicted, and the incremental searching on pages. You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
Daniel Turini wrote: MS even seems to be easing the path for Linux migration with .NET. Mono is becoming a very viable alternative to .NET and several things work there already. Most of my software is .NET now, and it runs on Linux almost without modification. I don't believe you, but I can't say you are wrong before I try myself. :) jhaga --------------------------------- I have discovered that all human evil comes from this, man's being unable to sit still in a room. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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but we would only start developing for linux en masse if the demand from users was there and that will be driven by desktop users not server side stuff personally i wouldnt touch linux as a desktop system right now ... the apps for general usage are pretty crappy compared to windows stuff (think office, photoshop, etc) but yeah im getting familiar with it from a coding perspective cos i think its gonna be an important skill one of these days :)
l a u r e n wrote: but we would only start developing for linux en masse if the demand from users was there and that will be driven by desktop users not server side stuff This is an important point. The majority of users in the world already chose Windows (for whatever reason) and there's not really nothing that we developers can do to change that (most of us just do whatever it takes to feed ourselves and our families following the path of least resistance - or commonsense as it's known in some circles) . So all the pro-linux and anti-microsoft bs is nothing more than useless whining (it leads to interesting flame wars thou! :-))
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
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Daniel Turini wrote: However, from the last year to now, I am shocked how Linux (and all other OSS) seems to be taking large steps getting better, while MS sits there, just looking and doing nothing about it nor significantly improving its products Well, the CIAC[^] doesn't seem to depict such clear picture in Linux's favor. From what I've read the "absolute and inherent" security of Linux and other open source software is somewhat of a myth.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
Eddie Velasquez wrote: Well, the CIAC[^] doesn't seem to depict such clear picture in Linux's favor. From what I've read the "absolute and inherent" security of Linux and other open source software is somewhat of a myth. I was not saying that Linux security is better than Windows (actually, I think *nix security model is better than Windows, but this is another discussion). The overall Linux environment is getting better. More good software, and it's becoming more user-friendlier. This can't be dismissed. Denying it was the path chosen by IBM 20 years ago and it didn't work. It won't right now. You have And yes, you'll see more security flaws on Linux packages because there are lots of them, but normally only a few are running on a well-configured machine, opposed to a well-configured Windows machine, which still runs lots of processes, exposing it to more security flaws. There are fully functional Linux distros which, after boot, run only 11 very small processes, IIRC. You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
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Daniel Turini wrote: MS even seems to be easing the path for Linux migration with .NET. Mono is becoming a very viable alternative to .NET and several things work there already. Most of my software is .NET now, and it runs on Linux almost without modification. I don't believe you, but I can't say you are wrong before I try myself. :) jhaga --------------------------------- I have discovered that all human evil comes from this, man's being unable to sit still in a room. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
jhaga wrote: I don't believe you, but I can't say you are wrong before I try myself. Try it - they have a .MSI which runs on Windows under cygwin. You don't even need to compile on mono, you can give your assemblies to it and it runs. You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
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Eddie Velasquez wrote: Well, the CIAC[^] doesn't seem to depict such clear picture in Linux's favor. From what I've read the "absolute and inherent" security of Linux and other open source software is somewhat of a myth. I was not saying that Linux security is better than Windows (actually, I think *nix security model is better than Windows, but this is another discussion). The overall Linux environment is getting better. More good software, and it's becoming more user-friendlier. This can't be dismissed. Denying it was the path chosen by IBM 20 years ago and it didn't work. It won't right now. You have And yes, you'll see more security flaws on Linux packages because there are lots of them, but normally only a few are running on a well-configured machine, opposed to a well-configured Windows machine, which still runs lots of processes, exposing it to more security flaws. There are fully functional Linux distros which, after boot, run only 11 very small processes, IIRC. You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
Daniel Turini wrote: The overall Linux environment is getting better. I agree, but it's not like Windows is getting worse. Windows Server 2003 is a huge improvement and Microsoft is changing their ways and it wouldn't suprise me they turn around the security "wave" by the time Longhorn ships just like they did when the were left behind by the internet wave. Microsoft isn't were it is by being dumb and doing the wrong things all the time.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
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Once Linux moves beyond the web/email server (where it rules) and has a consistant desktop to design for AND for the user to really use (KDE? QT? G? R? IceBox?), *then* we'll see about it. Right now, non of the clients I've been working with are even considering Linux - hell, most of them are still using Windows 95 (why upgrade? it works, and for simple data entry, this is ALL THEY NEED). On the server side, Windows 2000 and SQL 2000 are the bomb - affordable. Sorry, but Postgress [sp?]/MySQL ain't there yet. Two or three more major versions, then yes, we'll see some serious look-see's. I've done the cross-platform development back BEFORE there was a good Windows - try going Motif<->Mac<->Win31. I'm very happy to stick with one platform. IfDef's suck. I think the real reason that people are thinking about moving away from Microsoft is two fold. First, M$ always wants more money - instead of fixing the bugs and polishing, they keep ramming new and unneeded features on people. This leads into the current problem - with a 90% installed base, the product has to be TOTALLY bullet-proof (not secure, that's a user problem - pick a password, idiot - that's how Linux web pages get defaced). The home user - our moms, for example - has no clue, and shouldn't have. It's OUR jobs as developers to use strncpy, not strcpy. Check for null pointers. Respond to error codes. Etc. ...wanders off muttering to himself...
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
Todd C. Wilson wrote: try going Motif<->Mac<->Win31 What programming tools did you use for that?
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l a u r e n wrote: well compare koffice or whatever to ms office i know what id rather use anyday Wordpad? ;P -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Todd C. Wilson wrote: try going Motif<->Mac<->Win31 What programming tools did you use for that?
C at the time. It was all if-def'd. There was no conversion tool as such at the time worth a damn.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
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Has anyone stopped to realize that even here on CP, there are more and more posts about moving to Linux (or at least dabbling in it)? Has Microsoft GOTTEN a clue yet? When the developers start toying with the idea of changing to Linux, doesn't that literrally scare the hell outa Microsoft? I think it should. I posted this in a thread on another website that I frequent when someone asked what was so great about Linux:
Linux is great if you have a lot of time to spend on what amounts to re-learning how to walk upright. It's the computer equivalant of Neo escaping his pod in The Matrix. It's gonna be a bit scary, and you're just gonna stare open-mouthed at some of the crap you're seeing for the first time, but down deep, you KNOW it's better than where you were.------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature endsI don't think MS has to worry because the Linux crowd is still very small. Less than 5% of the market... Personally, I think the OS is better than windows. The file systems are definitely better and the GUI is better but the installation / configuration is lacking. I believe this will always be the case. Red Hat and the other companies involved have no reason to make it easy because they make their money from support. For them the harder the better... Also good applications for Linux are few and far between and the Wine emulation layer that allows you to run some windows applications is not perfect. A lot of their applications are geared to the command line which is both good and bad... I just want a program with a GUI interface that can burn CD-R disks similar to nero... John
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jhaga wrote: I don't believe you, but I can't say you are wrong before I try myself. Try it - they have a .MSI which runs on Windows under cygwin. You don't even need to compile on mono, you can give your assemblies to it and it runs. You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
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C at the time. It was all if-def'd. There was no conversion tool as such at the time worth a damn.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
Look on the bright side: you get three programs in one! ;) -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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hey john i think its that the corporates and others are moving to linux on the backend for costs and perceived security reasons (right or wrong) and us poor sods have to figure out a way to make windows work as a client to linux as a server ... thats where i see things going in my world and it isnt that tough anymore ... i set up a linux server with apache and ftp and php and mysql etc for the first time from scratch and it took a couple of hours only think im beginning to like it too :)
l a u r e n wrote: think im beginning to like it too Absolute power is addictive, isn't it? :) Did ya get the flash drive working btw? -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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Has anyone stopped to realize that even here on CP, there are more and more posts about moving to Linux (or at least dabbling in it)? Has Microsoft GOTTEN a clue yet? When the developers start toying with the idea of changing to Linux, doesn't that literrally scare the hell outa Microsoft? I think it should. I posted this in a thread on another website that I frequent when someone asked what was so great about Linux:
Linux is great if you have a lot of time to spend on what amounts to re-learning how to walk upright. It's the computer equivalant of Neo escaping his pod in The Matrix. It's gonna be a bit scary, and you're just gonna stare open-mouthed at some of the crap you're seeing for the first time, but down deep, you KNOW it's better than where you were.------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature endsIt's tough to call. There are times when I think Linux is the future and then there are times when I think, not a chance. These days I'm leaning more and more to the "not a chance" side of things. The movement is much too fragmented. So it'll all boil down to weighing up the costs between a tightly integrated set of systems (MS) or a hodge podge of free software alternatives. In the long run I think the MS systems will still be more flexible, easier to maintain and cheaper to extend. This is all provided MS get their act together mind you :-) What's the difference between a C++ programmer and God? God knows he's not a C++ programmer : anon
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>If more Windows programmers were to make the switch to Linux, >I think Linux would become that much better (and viable on >the desktop) that much faster. And why's would they suddenly decide to do that? Most of us programmers will only switch if our customers demand Linux versions of our Windows apps. I don't have the time to p*ss about with Linux in my spare time let alone consider porting any of my existing apps "for fun" - and porting massive MFC apps isn't going to be easy - it's going to be expensive, time-consuming and probably frustrating if Linux dev tools are as bad as I hear. Unless their is a commercial need for it, it won't happen. Personally, I expect more and more of our customers *will* try desktop Linux in the coming years, but *if* they don't then here's one programmer that will be sticking with MS! If a customer is willing to pay big bucks for us to make the switch, then we will - but it's gonna cost 'em - and perhaps wipe out any saving they make from switching in the first place! It'll be an interesting few years.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: probably frustrating if Linux dev tools are as bad as I hear I wouldn't say they're bad. They're different and more low level than the average Windows based IDE. But you can build pretty nifty things with it, but it'll require more than finding CTRL+F7 and F7. Other than that I agree with you. :) -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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Since I only use Excel in the Office series, then any UNIX replacement would do I think. But had I been a doc writer for instance, then they'd probably have to pry Word out of my dead cold hands. :) -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I know *I'm* tired of MS changing the rules EVERY YEAR (OLE, no wait, DDE, no wait COM, no wait, DCOM, no wait, .NET) If you think that evolution and improvement is bad the I would recommend a job as a COBOL, RP/G or PL/I developer.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
Heh, what John described was revolution. Not evolution.. :) Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former. :shrug: -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
