Linux - More Frequent Posts
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>If more Windows programmers were to make the switch to Linux, >I think Linux would become that much better (and viable on >the desktop) that much faster. And why's would they suddenly decide to do that? Most of us programmers will only switch if our customers demand Linux versions of our Windows apps. I don't have the time to p*ss about with Linux in my spare time let alone consider porting any of my existing apps "for fun" - and porting massive MFC apps isn't going to be easy - it's going to be expensive, time-consuming and probably frustrating if Linux dev tools are as bad as I hear. Unless their is a commercial need for it, it won't happen. Personally, I expect more and more of our customers *will* try desktop Linux in the coming years, but *if* they don't then here's one programmer that will be sticking with MS! If a customer is willing to pay big bucks for us to make the switch, then we will - but it's gonna cost 'em - and perhaps wipe out any saving they make from switching in the first place! It'll be an interesting few years.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: probably frustrating if Linux dev tools are as bad as I hear I wouldn't say they're bad. They're different and more low level than the average Windows based IDE. But you can build pretty nifty things with it, but it'll require more than finding CTRL+F7 and F7. Other than that I agree with you. :) -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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Has anyone stopped to realize that even here on CP, there are more and more posts about moving to Linux (or at least dabbling in it)? Has Microsoft GOTTEN a clue yet? When the developers start toying with the idea of changing to Linux, doesn't that literrally scare the hell outa Microsoft? I think it should. I posted this in a thread on another website that I frequent when someone asked what was so great about Linux:
Linux is great if you have a lot of time to spend on what amounts to re-learning how to walk upright. It's the computer equivalant of Neo escaping his pod in The Matrix. It's gonna be a bit scary, and you're just gonna stare open-mouthed at some of the crap you're seeing for the first time, but down deep, you KNOW it's better than where you were.------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature endsIt's tough to call. There are times when I think Linux is the future and then there are times when I think, not a chance. These days I'm leaning more and more to the "not a chance" side of things. The movement is much too fragmented. So it'll all boil down to weighing up the costs between a tightly integrated set of systems (MS) or a hodge podge of free software alternatives. In the long run I think the MS systems will still be more flexible, easier to maintain and cheaper to extend. This is all provided MS get their act together mind you :-) What's the difference between a C++ programmer and God? God knows he's not a C++ programmer : anon
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Since I only use Excel in the Office series, then any UNIX replacement would do I think. But had I been a doc writer for instance, then they'd probably have to pry Word out of my dead cold hands. :) -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I know *I'm* tired of MS changing the rules EVERY YEAR (OLE, no wait, DDE, no wait COM, no wait, DCOM, no wait, .NET) If you think that evolution and improvement is bad the I would recommend a job as a COBOL, RP/G or PL/I developer.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
Heh, what John described was revolution. Not evolution.. :) Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former. :shrug: -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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Since I only use Excel in the Office series, then any UNIX replacement would do I think. But had I been a doc writer for instance, then they'd probably have to pry Word out of my dead cold hands. :) -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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I just installed cygwin http://www.cygwin.com/setup.exe[^] and it looks :cool: jhaga --------------------------------- I have discovered that all human evil comes from this, man's being unable to sit still in a room. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
Oh, just wait until you get mono working :) It :cool: :cool: You can do it on anything you choose - from .bat to .net - A customer
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Heh, what John described was revolution. Not evolution.. :) Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former. :shrug: -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former. Yes they are. Backward compatibility is sometimes a curse... There are so many parts of MFC that I hate yet to scrap the whole thing I loose a lot of functionality... John
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Heh, what John described was revolution. Not evolution.. :) Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former. :shrug: -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
Well, Revolution is just more fun, isn't it? :-D Actually I think they've done a pretty good job of ensuring their previous technologies continue working with their new ones, especially when it comes to COM. .NET definitely looks like Revolution but my hope is that it gets improved and extended without eventually looking like Sun's JDK. X| Regards, Alvaro
Hey! It compiles! Ship it.
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Heh, what John described was revolution. Not evolution.. :) Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former. :shrug: -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former I think you're wrong. AFAIK they never scrap anything, they just stop developing it. As proof of this, you can still do DDE, RDO, DAO and other obsolete technologies in Windows XP.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Evolution is step by step, removing the bad parts and adding new parts. Revolution is scrapping the entire species and replace it with a new. I'd say Microsoft is more into the latter then the former I think you're wrong. AFAIK they never scrap anything, they just stop developing it. As proof of this, you can still do DDE, RDO, DAO and other obsolete technologies in Windows XP.
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
True, but do they support it (as in fixing it if it's broken)? That was Johns main argument, and a good one. Ok, I should've used another word than replace. Obsolete or deprecate perhaps? -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
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I think most of you so far have missed the point. I'm not talking about end-users, I'm talking about the programmers here on CP that are talking about Linux more every day, and whether or not MS has taken notice. Afterall (and regardless of whether or not MS wants to admit it), Windows is a success because of *us*. We all jumped on the bandwagon and programmed our asses off to come up with applications. I think the same thing is about to happen with Linux, and if it does, Windows will become nothing but a memory for most of us. With the talk of a managed API in Longhorn, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a good number of programms that are currently writing for Windows just collectively say "screw this", and move en masse to Linux where the dev tools are free or relatively cheap, and the OS remains fairly static in terms of what it does. I know *I'm* tired of MS changing the rules EVERY YEAR (OLE, no wait, DDE, no wait COM, no wait, DCOM, no wait, .NET) without fixing things that are wrong with the previous year's crap. If more Windows programmers were to make the switch to Linux, I think Linux would become that much better (and viable on the desktop) that much faster. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John, you really need to keep your crap sorted. The order was clipboard, DDE, then OLE, OLE2, COM, DCOM, .NET.
Software Zen:
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True, but do they support it (as in fixing it if it's broken)? That was Johns main argument, and a good one. Ok, I should've used another word than replace. Obsolete or deprecate perhaps? -- Keep him tied, it makes him well He's getting better, can't you tell?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: True, but do they support it (as in fixing it if it's broken)? Well, the APIs are still there... and there so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange. Or would you find DDE web services useful? Or maybe 16 bit real mode database access component would be neat? ;)
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution - Robert Sewell
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my take on linux vs. microsoft.... i hear so much b/s on the argument. microsoft is amazing for what they have accomplished.. if it was so easy, why havent you written an o/s that replaces microsofts. its not microsoft monopoly that keeps us working with microsoft, its that nothing is better for multimedia rich data processing / manipulation, or user-friendliness within a production environment than windows. but... linux is too amazing for what it has accomplished. A savvy linux users can cut so much overhead outta their o/s that bar none, it can be speedier than windows on many internet / networking related tasks. this is great to some of us , but of no concern to our general computer user who just want some net access /run games. Microsoft has much more support / functionallity built in to support say video / audio manipulation... whereas linux is better if you want a thin o/s , and FULL control over the movement of data within your o/s. they both have their place and work well together, and niether will replace the other in any near future (or at least a few year)... todo.... :: insert inpirational text here ::
jDawwg wrote: microsoft is amazing for what they have accomplished.. if it was so easy, why havent you written an o/s that replaces microsofts. Cause it's not the 70's no more, IBM isn't knockong on my door with a huge offer for an OS I don't have and Snorty the smart cunt with the OS isn't around willing to sell it to me for a pittance. Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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l a u r e n wrote: yah personally i could use a text editor for my writing... From what I have read of your posts ove rthe past couple of years a mobile phone would do. :-D Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I think most of you so far have missed the point. I'm not talking about end-users, I'm talking about the programmers here on CP that are talking about Linux more every day I think you are confusing your Linux forum site with CP. Most of the Linux talk here is the same Linux talk we have had for years. Go collect some proof and then I will listen.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaCrikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: Go collect some proof and then I will listen. He doesn't speak Seuth Effriken do you wouldn't understand. Also I hear Penguim tatstes better than Bill Gates. You should try it sometime. Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Paul Watson wrote: Go collect some proof and then I will listen. He doesn't speak Seuth Effriken do you wouldn't understand. Also I hear Penguim tatstes better than Bill Gates. You should try it sometime. Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
I have, it is tough and chewy.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaCrikey! ain't life grand?
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I don't think MS has to worry because the Linux crowd is still very small. Less than 5% of the market... Personally, I think the OS is better than windows. The file systems are definitely better and the GUI is better but the installation / configuration is lacking. I believe this will always be the case. Red Hat and the other companies involved have no reason to make it easy because they make their money from support. For them the harder the better... Also good applications for Linux are few and far between and the Wine emulation layer that allows you to run some windows applications is not perfect. A lot of their applications are geared to the command line which is both good and bad... I just want a program with a GUI interface that can burn CD-R disks similar to nero... John
John M. Drescher wrote: the GUI is better I have to disagree with this. If it worked reliably I would agree with you, but getting X to run on ordinary hardware is a pain at best. If KDE, for example it can be applied to any of the linux window managers, wants to succeed they need to drop X and start from scratch. John M. Drescher wrote: A lot of their applications are geared to the command line Thats the biggest problem with linux's "GUI" is that nothing really is GUI based. Matt Newman
Sonork: 100:11179 "Whoa, that ruled! What function key do I gotta press to get that to happen again?" - Strong Bad -
jDawwg wrote: microsoft is amazing for what they have accomplished.. if it was so easy, why havent you written an o/s that replaces microsofts. Cause it's not the 70's no more, IBM isn't knockong on my door with a huge offer for an OS I don't have and Snorty the smart cunt with the OS isn't around willing to sell it to me for a pittance. Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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yea, cuz bill had NOOO idea what he was doing, it was all circumstance, had you been in charge of Microsoft , you could have done better for this company..... riiight. todo.... :: insert inpirational text here ::
jDawwg wrote: yea, cuz bill had NOOO idea what he was doing, it was all circumstance... Not completely ButtBoy, but Bill wasn't all seeing and all knowing like you seem to believe. He had a dream, a bit of an idea and he went for it. Circumstances gave him the opportunity to move up to the big boys level. IBM'S arrogance did that not Bill's brilliant negotiating skills. Once he got there he took every opportunity to screw everyone else to the the wall to stay on top. It maybe the Capitalistic and American way but I still hope he get's arse cancer. jDawwg wrote: ...had you been in charge of Microsoft , you could have done better for this company..... riiight. Don't remember claiming that, but I do know I take credit for my work and give cresit where credit is due to others. You didn't seem to be doing this for Billy Boy. Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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jDawwg wrote: yea, cuz bill had NOOO idea what he was doing, it was all circumstance... Not completely ButtBoy, but Bill wasn't all seeing and all knowing like you seem to believe. He had a dream, a bit of an idea and he went for it. Circumstances gave him the opportunity to move up to the big boys level. IBM'S arrogance did that not Bill's brilliant negotiating skills. Once he got there he took every opportunity to screw everyone else to the the wall to stay on top. It maybe the Capitalistic and American way but I still hope he get's arse cancer. jDawwg wrote: ...had you been in charge of Microsoft , you could have done better for this company..... riiight. Don't remember claiming that, but I do know I take credit for my work and give cresit where credit is due to others. You didn't seem to be doing this for Billy Boy. Michael Martin Australia "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: blah snort , Don't remember claiming that blah blah well, to sum it up, all i originally said in my post was the reason microsoft is still here is because its the best thing out in its particular market. if their was something better , it would sell. look how well linux is doing, and thats not even a full replacement yet then you say something like... Michael Martin wrote: 'Cause it's not the 70's no more, IBM isn't knocking on my door with a huge offer for an OS I don't have and Snorty the smart c*** with the OS isn't around willing to sell it to me for a pittance.' And thats your reason why you have no better o/s... sounds pretty silly to me. I didnt put words in your mouth hotshot... :suss: todo.... :: insert inpirational text here ::
