Toe The Line?
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Suprisingly, on the news yesterday there was a whole lot of moaning concerning the fact that the atrocities in Northern Ireland have actually escalated! Maybe G. Bush will step in there as well...
Sad... Actually, I agree to an extent. 1. Britain needs to take the lead in dealing with the IRA (which they do). Since Bin Laden attacked America, it is natural for us to take the lead in this case. 2. America needs to get serious about stopping American citizens from supporting terrorist activities. (One of America's dirty little secrets is that we have a significant number of IRA supporters and contributors in America. Boston seems to have a lot.) Many are hoping that after WTC, many of the American citizens actively supporting IRA terroristic activities will stop. Personally, I think that is wishful thinking. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Sad... Actually, I agree to an extent. 1. Britain needs to take the lead in dealing with the IRA (which they do). Since Bin Laden attacked America, it is natural for us to take the lead in this case. 2. America needs to get serious about stopping American citizens from supporting terrorist activities. (One of America's dirty little secrets is that we have a significant number of IRA supporters and contributors in America. Boston seems to have a lot.) Many are hoping that after WTC, many of the American citizens actively supporting IRA terroristic activities will stop. Personally, I think that is wishful thinking. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Just like the terroristic activities between Palistine and Isreal, Packistan and India, etc., all need to stop. It isn't said enough, but terrorist doesn't equate to Islam. Who invented the car bomb? The IRA... Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Just like the terroristic activities between Palistine and Isreal, Packistan and India, etc., all need to stop. It isn't said enough, but terrorist doesn't equate to Islam. Who invented the car bomb? The IRA... Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
And another thing... I might be hell bent on getting Bin Laden and bringing him to trial, but I am also hell bent on making sure this doesn't become a war on Islam. My neighbors are Islamic and I will be DAMNED if I am going to hate them because of their religion. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Which is the exact problem that these people don't seem to realize. We tried to be nice and bring Bin Laden to trial for the earlier events. What did it get us, 6,000+ more dead people. I hope that he is brought in alive and can be brought to a court of law (and not an American linching). However, at this point, it isn't about justice for Bin Laden, it is about protecting America and other contries from continued attacks by Bin Laden. Asking nicely and showing the Taliban proof will not get us Bin Laden. Even *IF* the Taliban decided the evidence was significant, they would just then say that they don't know where he is. Which is something they already have done after THEY had him under house arrest. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Tim, do you honestly believe that the attacks will stop if we get Bin Laden? "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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Ugh... I have heard that line of thought so many times it just makes me sick. Read up on the appeasement period prior to WWII. Giving into all of Germany's demands didn't stop Hitler. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Have u ever heard of miscarriages of justice? How will u feel now if some other group claimed responsibility and there was proof to back thier claim. Note that i do not say anyone is guilty or not! This is not a matter of giving in to anyone's demands. It is simple - a demand was made by the most powerful nation on earth and it was backed a hot-headed president who was rightfully angry. Anger, alone, is not enough.
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Which is the exact problem that these people don't seem to realize. We tried to be nice and bring Bin Laden to trial for the earlier events. What did it get us, 6,000+ more dead people. I hope that he is brought in alive and can be brought to a court of law (and not an American linching). However, at this point, it isn't about justice for Bin Laden, it is about protecting America and other contries from continued attacks by Bin Laden. Asking nicely and showing the Taliban proof will not get us Bin Laden. Even *IF* the Taliban decided the evidence was significant, they would just then say that they don't know where he is. Which is something they already have done after THEY had him under house arrest. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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And another thing... I might be hell bent on getting Bin Laden and bringing him to trial, but I am also hell bent on making sure this doesn't become a war on Islam. My neighbors are Islamic and I will be DAMNED if I am going to hate them because of their religion. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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"Only a group of sick individuals are responsible for this (whoever they are)" How do you know? These terrorists operate in the broad light of day throughout the entire middle-east. They openly recruit and train new members, they are openly funded by everybody in the middle east who has a check book. There is no mystery here. No one is hiding in the shadows. If the countries in the middle-east wanted, they could easily eliminate these terrorists groups. It looks to me as though the entire Islamic civilization is sick and will continue to produce bin Ladins forever. How do we deal with that? But what if nothing that constitutes proof is ever found? What if all we ever know is that: a) Nearly 7000 of our citizens were killed by hijackers of an Islamic fundamentalist orientation. b) Islamic Fundamentalists continue to call for "death to america". c) Islamic Fundamentalists continue to be supplied with funds, support and training facilities in middle-eastern countries. d) No national government in the middle-east does anything to shut them up and lock them up. To me, that all by itself adds up to an overt declaration of war against our civilization. What more "proof" do you want? Are we to never take any action at all without "proof" ? To simply continue to bury our dead and be 'civilized'? I disagree. Somebody obviously wants a war, and somebody ought to get one. Screw civilization. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
These terrorists operate in the broad light of day throughout the entire middle-east. They openly recruit and train new members, they are openly funded by everybody in the middle east who has a check book OK...who funded and created Bin Laden? America Why? To fight the Russians and then he turned on America too. Hmmm... so who's responsible? You tell me! In our own society I believe we would be called vigilantes .i.e. taking the law into our own hands and seeking our own type of justice. As for your statements A through D. We need to ask ourselves why that is? Do you think these people do it for the heck of it? Could it possibly be about inequalities in the world today and developed nations holding down developing countries? Or is it about countries trying to impose their will on other countries? Please enlighten me! Rich
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These terrorists operate in the broad light of day throughout the entire middle-east. They openly recruit and train new members, they are openly funded by everybody in the middle east who has a check book OK...who funded and created Bin Laden? America Why? To fight the Russians and then he turned on America too. Hmmm... so who's responsible? You tell me! In our own society I believe we would be called vigilantes .i.e. taking the law into our own hands and seeking our own type of justice. As for your statements A through D. We need to ask ourselves why that is? Do you think these people do it for the heck of it? Could it possibly be about inequalities in the world today and developed nations holding down developing countries? Or is it about countries trying to impose their will on other countries? Please enlighten me! Rich
"OK...who funded and created Bin Laden? America Why? To fight the Russians and then he turned on America too" How illogical can you be? We give bin Ladin the financial support he needed to help defend an Islamic country - so he kills 6000+ Americans? Excuse me! Geez, how mad would he be if we had stood back and just let the USSR take Afganistan? Do you honestly beleive that this is about "inequalities in the world"? LOL. The Islamic world is not mad at us because of what we do or don't do. The U.S. is the leading supplier of aide to Afganistan for gods sake. Your argument makes no sense. What more could we possibly do for them? Join the world wide socialist utiopia? The irony is that they fear and hate us because of the values which our very existence and our success establish in the minds of people around the world. We represent the thing they most fear - proof that people, male and female, can coexist as individuals free from religious tyranny, as individuals pursueing their own private goals and ambitions in life without being dependent on a caretaker political/religious infrastructure. They hate us for the hopes and dreams that we plant in the minds of the people that their politcal establishment wants to control, especially their women. It is *they* who want to keep people unequal and downtrodden, not us. Try to sell your Marxist propaganda to someone else. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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Tow... But I guess a case could be made for "toe the line", as in standing along with the party line. Hmm, maybe I don't know. But I always thought it was Tow. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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"2 + 2 = 5", anybody who doesn't agree with me or says otherwise is just a small minded person who is unwilling to see the other side of an argument. .... Ummm, no. Sometimes people are just wrong. Sometimes they are just a troll. Many have posted intelligent commentaries on the current situation and have been well received. But when trolls come here TRYING to stir up trouble, people usually beat on them. As far as giving Taliban requesting proof, don't confuse due process and extradition with delay and obfuscation tactics. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
I would urge everyone to read the comments by Rickard OBerg(he is one of the makers of JBoss J2EE stack, in my opinion only rivaled by Orion and Weblogic) at: JavaLobby It was written several days after the attack and since then alot more things that just dont add up, came about.
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Go on and 'Pour a bucket of sun' over the whole country. While you are doing that remember Oklahoma! Remember the initial reaction, subsequent findings and punishment! Did anyone nuke the criminal and his country? The difference is that we had no evidence pointing to Bin Laden or any other Arab terrorists in Oklahoma City. Here, we've already got a money trail, wire transfers, identities of the hijackers...we know who did it, and now we're planning a retaliation against them.
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"OK...who funded and created Bin Laden? America Why? To fight the Russians and then he turned on America too" How illogical can you be? We give bin Ladin the financial support he needed to help defend an Islamic country - so he kills 6000+ Americans? Excuse me! Geez, how mad would he be if we had stood back and just let the USSR take Afganistan? Do you honestly beleive that this is about "inequalities in the world"? LOL. The Islamic world is not mad at us because of what we do or don't do. The U.S. is the leading supplier of aide to Afganistan for gods sake. Your argument makes no sense. What more could we possibly do for them? Join the world wide socialist utiopia? The irony is that they fear and hate us because of the values which our very existence and our success establish in the minds of people around the world. We represent the thing they most fear - proof that people, male and female, can coexist as individuals free from religious tyranny, as individuals pursueing their own private goals and ambitions in life without being dependent on a caretaker political/religious infrastructure. They hate us for the hopes and dreams that we plant in the minds of the people that their politcal establishment wants to control, especially their women. It is *they* who want to keep people unequal and downtrodden, not us. Try to sell your Marxist propaganda to someone else. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
WELL SAID!! Regards, Alvaro
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I would urge everyone to read the comments by Rickard OBerg(he is one of the makers of JBoss J2EE stack, in my opinion only rivaled by Orion and Weblogic) at: JavaLobby It was written several days after the attack and since then alot more things that just dont add up, came about.
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The rulers 'MIGHT' not even have known! BTW, the UN has started sending food aid to Afghanistan. 2 days ago Tony Blair talked about a coalition for aid to Afghanistan! bart :rose:
These discussions are triggered due to the scale of the attack this time. But, the radical islamic terrorist groups have been operating for a long time and has made several attacks throughout the world. Also, many of their plans have been foiled by Israeli, US and Jordan intelligence (source: CNN). It is improbable that the rulers of the nations where these groups are based does not know anything about it. UN sends aid to Afghanistan. It is to be seen where it ends up. I feel sorry for the people of Afghanistan. The taliban rulers seems to be working in the interest of terrorist groups because they are the only ones that benefit from Taliban rule. Aid to Afghanistan should be conditional of personal freedom. If it is ignored, other countries should act to liberate them from the autocratic leaders, who do not care about people. Even if that will be bad for the people there in the short term, they will atleast have hope of a better future because there are people around the world who care for their well-being. Note: Would the world have tuned a blind eye to Jewish massacre in Germany, if Hitler never attacked any other nation. Probably would have. -Thomas
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That depends on what country you're in. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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The rulers 'MIGHT' not even have known! BTW, the UN has started sending food aid to Afghanistan. 2 days ago Tony Blair talked about a coalition for aid to Afghanistan! bart :rose:
The US is the single biggest provider of aid to Afghanistan. The Taliban has it under control, starving people can see the aid that was sent for them as they die. If the media is lying about this they put together a damn impressive set to do so. The rulers might not have known. Maybe, but they are human rights criminals in their own right. I think the US should invade a way, and set up tents with free food. Show the Islamic world they care about the people who are suffering ( they do, or why would they send aid ), and then go in and deal with the rest. I doubt the Taliban would find many soldiers in the people they have starved, not when the option is not to fight for the US, but simply to be fed by them. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Have u ever heard of miscarriages of justice? How will u feel now if some other group claimed responsibility and there was proof to back thier claim. Note that i do not say anyone is guilty or not! This is not a matter of giving in to anyone's demands. It is simple - a demand was made by the most powerful nation on earth and it was backed a hot-headed president who was rightfully angry. Anger, alone, is not enough.
You think the US is going in based on Bushes anger ? With that sort of predisposed bias, it doesn't really matter WHAT anyone else says. There is more than enough evidence of Bin Ladens guilt in this and other events, and more than enough evidence that the Talibad is in cahoots with him. Example ? They released a statement that he couldn't be behind it because he can't contact the outside world. Hello ? The man can't afford a satellite phone ? The Talibad has been very good at acting in such a way as to arouse the sympathy of the Islamic world. That is the point of September 11, to start holy war. They are playing the game exactly the way they intended. The US could be smarter about that, but I don't think they need to present any further proof. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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You think the US is going in based on Bushes anger ? With that sort of predisposed bias, it doesn't really matter WHAT anyone else says. There is more than enough evidence of Bin Ladens guilt in this and other events, and more than enough evidence that the Talibad is in cahoots with him. Example ? They released a statement that he couldn't be behind it because he can't contact the outside world. Hello ? The man can't afford a satellite phone ? The Talibad has been very good at acting in such a way as to arouse the sympathy of the Islamic world. That is the point of September 11, to start holy war. They are playing the game exactly the way they intended. The US could be smarter about that, but I don't think they need to present any further proof. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Releasing a statement that he couldn't be behind it is proof? The man can afford a phone is proof? The truth is we have no proof because it has not been released! Lame statements like that just prove the point! Maybe some people have that knowledge but you certainly do not have any proof! You should not flame anyone who expresses a contrary opinion to yours! If you read my original post you will see that you actually agree with me without realising that!