A theological question...
-
Ben Ashley wrote: But what I am saying is that this engineer, in particular is: a) A great engineer b) a fundamentalist christian Are they not mutually exclusive? Your question implies that to be a great engineer, one cannot believe in something that is not 100% verifiable and/or that if one is a fundamentalist Christian then one can only believe in things that are not 100% verifiable. There are other scenarios that pose the same dilemna but I think the real flaw is in your assumptions and/or understanding of what it means to be a person who has faith in something. Sean Winstead
Apologies, but I don't see the flaw. My question states that: A great engineer verifies his work, and the process is logical. A fundamentalist (Insert religion), believes in something illogical but cannot verify. Or perhaps I am missing something?:omg: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Why should they be mutually exclusive? Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean you can't believe in it. Take the theory of evolution for example. ;P Or that the Cubs can win a world series in my lifetime.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
-
Why should they be mutually exclusive? Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean you can't believe in it. Take the theory of evolution for example. ;P Or that the Cubs can win a world series in my lifetime.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
The question was not about whether you can't prove something/so believe in it. The question was about THAT religious relation to a GOOD engineer... When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Faith and logic are not the opposite of each other. They are tools (if you will) for different applications. Even in engineering, or computer science, you need faith. I wouldn't say, faith that you code works without testing. But any time you rely on somebody else for something, you need faith. You need faith that your manager knows what he/she is doing, you need faith that your co-worker writing that network DLL you are using is competent, etc. If that faith doesn't exist, then your project is also in trouble. Religion is similar... you can live your life logically, and also have faith that the deity of your choice exists and knows what he's doing. I wouldn't call faith believing in something without any evidince whatsoever. I'd call it believing in something you can't necessarily prove is true. If your nose runs and your feet smell, then you're built upside down.
Some good points, however... "...you can live your life logically, and also have faith that the deity of your choice exists and knows what he's doing..." Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Surely?:confused: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Absolutely. But what I am saying is that this engineer, in particular is: a) A great engineer b) a fundamentalist christian Are they not mutually exclusive? When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Apologies, but I don't see the flaw. My question states that: A great engineer verifies his work, and the process is logical. A fundamentalist (Insert religion), believes in something illogical but cannot verify. Or perhaps I am missing something?:omg: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Some good points, however... "...you can live your life logically, and also have faith that the deity of your choice exists and knows what he's doing..." Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Surely?:confused: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Why are you assuming that having faith in a deity is without evidence? There is tons of evidence you could use. Of course, it does depend on how you interpret that evidence. If your nose runs and your feet smell, then you're built upside down.
-
Evidence proves otherwise. I know many great engineers who are also Christians (or other religions). I'd be surprised if you don't. If your nose runs and your feet smell, then you're built upside down.
yes, I know them. That's what I am trying to figure out. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Some good points, however... "...you can live your life logically, and also have faith that the deity of your choice exists and knows what he's doing..." Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Surely?:confused: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. What are hard truths? I may have ample truths to believe, but you may not find those good enough. Answer me this: What does it prove to God that we will only believe in him if we can prove he exists?
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
-
Apologies, but I don't see the flaw. My question states that: A great engineer verifies his work, and the process is logical. A fundamentalist (Insert religion), believes in something illogical but cannot verify. Or perhaps I am missing something?:omg: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Apologies, but I don't see the flaw. My question states that: A great engineer verifies his work, and the process is logical. A fundamentalist (Insert religion), believes in something illogical but cannot verify. My opinion is that the flaw is two-fold: 1. People have both logical and illogical sides. Just because a person is logical in one area does not mean they have to be logical in all areas. 2. Believing in a religion does not make one illogical. Being very general, one can find logic in a religion. For the most part, when you dig down deep enough there is a point where you find a very unstable foundation and the whole thing falls apart. For the most part, they end up being a moral code based upon something flimsy. But above that point you will find people who have very logical, religious beliefs (disregarding whether there is good evidence for those beliefs). But you most likely know all of this, are bored, and looking for a good fight. Sean Winstead
-
Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Why are you assuming that having faith in a deity is without evidence? There is tons of evidence you could use. Of course, it does depend on how you interpret that evidence. If your nose runs and your feet smell, then you're built upside down.
Heh, well this is where it gets really theological, I guess :-) You're right, there is tons of "evidence". But nothing that can be verified. If you want to talk about verifiable evidence, lets make a button with an onclick event... it'll happen unless you screw it up. Scientifically you can call in to question the concept of a higher being. Superficially, looking at the way things go on this planet you can ask the same questions. At the end of the day, the answer is written on the unread minds of man, but that's not what this thread is about... it's about the ILLOGICAL thought process doing completely LOGICAL activities. :cool: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Continuing in my attempt to bring "intellectually challenging thoughts and ideas" (Bonus pint of beer for those who can name the origin of that quote... clue, it started with "a veritable encyclopeadia of..."), I have a mental dilemma... How does a fundamentally religious person become a good engineer? Believing in a religion requires that you have faith. Faith being you believe in something you have been told, and/or have circumstantial evidence for. It's God's will. The Way of Allah. It's what the prophecy says. Little or no evidence... I digress, this post is not about discussing religion and it's pros and cons. A good software engineer (let's call them a cybernetic architect to bring the role in parallel with worshipper)... Knows his trade, everything is logical. Nothing is circumstantial unless it is a bug. It can only happen because of reason and of prior code. So how does a good engineer believe so profoundly in something illogical? Answers on a postcard and yes I will post that article on ISAPI/ATL/Managed C++... I just have no time except to write pointless posts. (Oh, and Paul... God did not invent the M5.... some German did... Was he religious?! :-)) :-O When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
You have a few questions to answer first. What makes a "good" software engineer ("cybernetic architect", whatever)? Is it someone who engineers good software? What is good software? Is it software that meets the user's needs? Who shot JR?
Shog9 --
Exchanging a walk-on part in the War
for the lead role in a Cage
-
Reasoned thinking is better than illogical, because it says that although you don't know all the facts you're going to perform a best-guess thought. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
yes, I know them. That's what I am trying to figure out. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Continuing in my attempt to bring "intellectually challenging thoughts and ideas" (Bonus pint of beer for those who can name the origin of that quote... clue, it started with "a veritable encyclopeadia of..."), I have a mental dilemma... How does a fundamentally religious person become a good engineer? Believing in a religion requires that you have faith. Faith being you believe in something you have been told, and/or have circumstantial evidence for. It's God's will. The Way of Allah. It's what the prophecy says. Little or no evidence... I digress, this post is not about discussing religion and it's pros and cons. A good software engineer (let's call them a cybernetic architect to bring the role in parallel with worshipper)... Knows his trade, everything is logical. Nothing is circumstantial unless it is a bug. It can only happen because of reason and of prior code. So how does a good engineer believe so profoundly in something illogical? Answers on a postcard and yes I will post that article on ISAPI/ATL/Managed C++... I just have no time except to write pointless posts. (Oh, and Paul... God did not invent the M5.... some German did... Was he religious?! :-)) :-O When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Generally people do not have faith in things they find illogical. Why would they? People who have faith in God, find a solid logic to their belief even though they may not be able to give concrete proof. Also, fundamentally religious people is a meaningless phrase. (just to nitpick) A persons religion is their way of viewing the world. This is by definition fundamental to their makeup. You might have simply said "How does a person become a good engineer?"
"The beat goes on.. da-da-dum dadum dum"
BW
-
yes, I know them. That's what I am trying to figure out. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
why don't you ask one of them. Josef Wainz Software Developer
-
Ben Ashley wrote: Apologies, but I don't see the flaw. My question states that: A great engineer verifies his work, and the process is logical. A fundamentalist (Insert religion), believes in something illogical but cannot verify. My opinion is that the flaw is two-fold: 1. People have both logical and illogical sides. Just because a person is logical in one area does not mean they have to be logical in all areas. 2. Believing in a religion does not make one illogical. Being very general, one can find logic in a religion. For the most part, when you dig down deep enough there is a point where you find a very unstable foundation and the whole thing falls apart. For the most part, they end up being a moral code based upon something flimsy. But above that point you will find people who have very logical, religious beliefs (disregarding whether there is good evidence for those beliefs). But you most likely know all of this, are bored, and looking for a good fight. Sean Winstead
To answer..: 1) I agree a persons viewpoints may differ between subjects. But I think that religion and the very nature of an engineer's work are such that the underlaying brain processes of logic and illogic must intertwine. 2) Religion has various grounds that we can point at and say "yes, that's cool, I can live by that". All religions tend to teach a passive, loveable attitude which is great and something I can deal with. The lesser among us need that kind of help to get out of their Tesco-bag-packing job. But the heaven/hell etherel award/fire and brimstone crap is a bit out-dated... Perhaps I didn't make it clear... this engineer was a fire-and-brimstone guy. No fight being looked for... just a conversation starter/stopper. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Why are you assuming that having faith in a deity is without evidence? There is tons of evidence you could use. Of course, it does depend on how you interpret that evidence. If your nose runs and your feet smell, then you're built upside down.
Navin wrote: There is tons of evidence you could use Sorry for being blunt but, ... like what? When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
-
Reasoned thinking is better than illogical, because it says that although you don't know all the facts you're going to perform a best-guess thought. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Reasoned thinking is better than illogical, because it says that although you don't know all the facts you're going to perform a best-guess thought. I don't know all the facts about our universe, therefore a best-guess thought I have (based on the evidence and truths I know) is that God does exist. So why don't you just come right out and call me an illogical bafoon?
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
-
Some good points, however... "...you can live your life logically, and also have faith that the deity of your choice exists and knows what he's doing..." Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Surely?:confused: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. In a perfect world, perhaps. The truth here is, to get by day to day, we take a *lot* of things on faith. We're taught to do this from a young age. Mother tells us "don't put your fingers in the wall sockets, you'll get hurt". We've seen no evidence of that. Those wall sockets look pretty harmless to me... After the crying and shaking stops, we see the advantages of having a bit of faith in Mother's words. Obtaining hard evidence on the dangers of Draino milkshakes can wait.
Shog9 --
Exchanging a walk-on part in the War
for the lead role in a Cage