Evolution
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I read a really good novel on that subject a few months ago and (typically) I can't remember the name or author. DOH! :rolleyes: I'll see if I can find it tonight and I'll post the details. It's pretty thought provoking. I don't think that society as a whole is very accepting of anyone who differs from the "norm" (all you have to do is watch daytime TV to see that), so I'd guess the usual things would happen - persecution (in at least some parts of the world), media hounding, etc. etc. I wouldn't envy those involved, I know that much. :(( Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. Lots of things that don't exist are not mentioned in the Bible. If God did not inspire the writers of the Bible, then He is by definition a waste of time, because He has both not represented Himself to us, and allowed flase representation to be presented. Yes, there's plenty of false representation out there as well, but unless the Bible or SOME source presents His view accurately, He's either not there, or useless. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution, so I can't comment... I resisted the urge for months, but now must ask a contentious question. How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? How do you explain 'platipus' ? A proof that god not only exist but also has a sence of humor, thus high inteligence. If you ask me, i don't believe in the existence of 'platipus'. I am to old to change my believes. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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This is a three part question 1/ Dinosaurs. Nothing to explain, largely because I don't know why God made them, or why they died out. The Bible is silent on this matter, and I don't really see it as overly important, although I do not deny it is interesting. 2/ Primates. If you mean human ancestors, then I'm sorry, but half a human skull and half a pig jaw do not constitute proof of a link between man and apes. If we're so close to apes, why do we use rats and pigs to do medical tests ? 3/ Prehistoric species. Are you contending that because many species have existed and died out, that others have 'sprung up' to take their place spontaneously or out of lesser animals that existed already ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, fuck bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. But what's his master plan with the victims of rape and other atrocities that survive. Let them live with all the hate and fuck all they can do to fix it. Kill the perpetraor's and you have sinned, go to jail (gaol) and actually don't fix anything anyway. I know I am explaining the colour blue to the blind man. So think this rant will be my first and last religious post. I spent the first 10 years of my life believing in God. Went to Church and Sunday School, read the Bible (3 different versions) before the end of Primary school (12 years old). At the age of 9 I was sexually assaulted. Fucked me up, still all twisted. So earlier references are not blind rant for the arguement. Again, What is God's master plan for people like me? When do I get to feel all warm and gooey with the Father figure to look after me? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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...try to second guess the natural order and attempt to "fix the problem"? I go for fix the problem. We're a pompous lot who think we know everything. Every race/religion/personality etc. tries to force their ideas down everyone else's throats. As we all know I'm the only one with that particular power. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
"Every race/religion/personality etc. tries to force their ideas down everyone else's throats As we all know I'm the only one with that particular power" If *someone* didn't have the authority to shove ideas down people's throats, civilization itself would not be possible. So, thanks a lot .... ;) "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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FYI I'm a Christian too and I don't have any conflict between Faith and Cosmology/Evolution, though I understand how those who do arrive at that conclusion. Does that mean you believe the Bible is wrong, or God is confused ? Feel free not to reply if you don't want to get worms all over your keyboard ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
LOL. I just knew I'd have to explain that one! :rolleyes: In no way do I think God is confused - isn't it so much more likely that we're a little confused over God and His Word? The way I look at it is that although the Bible is His word to us, it comes through Human hands and is written with an society radically different from those today in mind. If not, I'm in trouble. My hair's too long! (1-Corinthians 11:14). When you add to this translation and laguage issues and the use of parables it's no wonder different people read different interpretations. Some parts are crystal clear; others aren't. The account of creation in Genesis always seems to be to be like an adult trying to explain how it all started to a child using a story the child can understand. We're the children, God is the Father. That doesn't take anything away from creation, to my mind - in fact it makes it even more stunning. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
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The current human "model" has been around for quite some time, and it's hard to believe that mother nature isn't somehow trying to improve it in some way. Would we (as a race) be able to delineate an evolutionary step from a "quirk of nature" or simple birth defect, or would we try to second guess the natural order and attempt to "fix the problem"? To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Err, "mother nature"? ;) It's worth to notice that "evolution" doesn't mean to "improve". As such, evolution is simply a process where one species survive and others don't, leading to constant change in the shape-form-behaviour-younameit of the biosphere. It might, and sometimes it does, mean to "degenerate" in one way or another since it doesn't have any specific direction. The pattern of changes is also a result of the complex events, including the random events.
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Hey Andy nobody wants to Differ from the "Norm" maybe because the "Norm" is perfection. ;P Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
Lol! There was a UK ad campaign featuring "the Norm" a little while back. I hope you're not like him - he was a little grey and boring; not very flattering at all... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
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This is a three part question 1/ Dinosaurs. Nothing to explain, largely because I don't know why God made them, or why they died out. The Bible is silent on this matter, and I don't really see it as overly important, although I do not deny it is interesting. 2/ Primates. If you mean human ancestors, then I'm sorry, but half a human skull and half a pig jaw do not constitute proof of a link between man and apes. If we're so close to apes, why do we use rats and pigs to do medical tests ? 3/ Prehistoric species. Are you contending that because many species have existed and died out, that others have 'sprung up' to take their place spontaneously or out of lesser animals that existed already ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
what about DNA testing? do you believe DNA tests prove anything? if so, there's your link - DNA tests show how close we are to the other apes with far more accuracy than physiological comparisons. we use rats and pigs because it's cheaper to keep a 1 pound rat than a 70 pound chimp, plus rats and pigs breed faster and grow faster than apes. and... even though many people feel it would be unethical to experiment on apes, medical researchers still do a lot of tests on them. yes, many species have existed and died out. there is enough proof of that that denying it is a far greater leap of faith than believing it, in my opinion. "lesser" implies there is a direction or goal to evolution. there isn't. we're no better than any other creature, as far as evolution is concerned. things change, many critters die. the critters that don't die get to breed. end of story. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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The current human "model" has been around for quite some time, and it's hard to believe that mother nature isn't somehow trying to improve it in some way. Would we (as a race) be able to delineate an evolutionary step from a "quirk of nature" or simple birth defect, or would we try to second guess the natural order and attempt to "fix the problem"? To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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Power for what? to evolve, or to push your ideas down everyone else's throat? :) To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Power for what? to evolve, or to push your ideas down everyone else's throat? :) Push my ideas down everyone's throat. A long long time ago in a thread far far away (No. I won't get a link). I made reference to being infinitely qualified to be Supreme Leader of the World. This was due to my power to Look at a man and instantly tell whether he should live or die. If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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"Every race/religion/personality etc. tries to force their ideas down everyone else's throats As we all know I'm the only one with that particular power" If *someone* didn't have the authority to shove ideas down people's throats, civilization itself would not be possible. So, thanks a lot .... ;) "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
So, thanks a lot .... ;) No worries Stan. I just wish everyone I know would realise that I should be shoving my ideas dowm their throat. Not them their ilconceived, uneducated tripe down mine. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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This is a three part question 1/ Dinosaurs. Nothing to explain, largely because I don't know why God made them, or why they died out. The Bible is silent on this matter, and I don't really see it as overly important, although I do not deny it is interesting. 2/ Primates. If you mean human ancestors, then I'm sorry, but half a human skull and half a pig jaw do not constitute proof of a link between man and apes. If we're so close to apes, why do we use rats and pigs to do medical tests ? 3/ Prehistoric species. Are you contending that because many species have existed and died out, that others have 'sprung up' to take their place spontaneously or out of lesser animals that existed already ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
We are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas. Frankly I am in awe of people who have faith because I find it very, nay VERY, difficult simply to believe in something without proof. Most of the time I atually wish I did have faith, life would be simpler. But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Bottom line though, the question of human origin pales in significance to the question of the universes origin... to my understanding of life we should not be here, nothing should be here. Not even nothing should exist. I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school :) ) One thing I do know: Any parent who tells their kids that either religion or evolution is right and the other is wrong needs a fat smack. Kids must make their own choice in the matter. No matter how hard you believe in something not even your kids are valid targets for "ideas down throat" behaviour. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
And just what is wrong with my colour-blind, short sighted, flat footed, pasty skinned genes anyway? X| Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
But whats *really* scary is that we are now close to haveing the knowledge to bend evolution itself to our will, to turn our species into what ever we want it to be genetically. We could accelerate our own evolution a million years within a few months. To, in fact, not just play god, but become god. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. Lots of things that don't exist are not mentioned in the Bible. If God did not inspire the writers of the Bible, then He is by definition a waste of time, because He has both not represented Himself to us, and allowed flase representation to be presented. Yes, there's plenty of false representation out there as well, but unless the Bible or SOME source presents His view accurately, He's either not there, or useless. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
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1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, fuck bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. But what's his master plan with the victims of rape and other atrocities that survive. Let them live with all the hate and fuck all they can do to fix it. Kill the perpetraor's and you have sinned, go to jail (gaol) and actually don't fix anything anyway. I know I am explaining the colour blue to the blind man. So think this rant will be my first and last religious post. I spent the first 10 years of my life believing in God. Went to Church and Sunday School, read the Bible (3 different versions) before the end of Primary school (12 years old). At the age of 9 I was sexually assaulted. Fucked me up, still all twisted. So earlier references are not blind rant for the arguement. Again, What is God's master plan for people like me? When do I get to feel all warm and gooey with the Father figure to look after me? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. I guess largely because the Bible is not a book of natural history, but a record of God's dealings with man. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). I was thinking of a specific example. I have no problem with the possibility of human like animals living a long time ago, just the arrestion that there is a steady stream of change. I don't regard the Bible as inconsistent, although I admit books like Revelation are deliberately written so only people who have read OT prophecy and understand the meaning of the symbolism can understand it. Was this not so, the author (John) would have been killed for writing it. And the big difference between Nostro and the Bible is that scripture is consistent in it's imagery, it uses the same terms to refer to the same events/places, etc. This makes it far more accountable for it's claims. Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? I'd admit that I would agree that is probably part of the reason, they look humanish. But unless we were also very similar to rats & pigs, why would they do it at all ? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- Interesting question, I will ponder it when proof of aliens arrives. God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, f*** bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. Not so, actually as I have often said here when the topic comes up, God is still working, but He doeals with people on an individual rather than national basis, and so proof has also become to the individual rather than the nation, and the smiting has been put on hold to give people a c
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1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, fuck bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. But what's his master plan with the victims of rape and other atrocities that survive. Let them live with all the hate and fuck all they can do to fix it. Kill the perpetraor's and you have sinned, go to jail (gaol) and actually don't fix anything anyway. I know I am explaining the colour blue to the blind man. So think this rant will be my first and last religious post. I spent the first 10 years of my life believing in God. Went to Church and Sunday School, read the Bible (3 different versions) before the end of Primary school (12 years old). At the age of 9 I was sexually assaulted. Fucked me up, still all twisted. So earlier references are not blind rant for the arguement. Again, What is God's master plan for people like me? When do I get to feel all warm and gooey with the Father figure to look after me? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Faith is for the fortunate or the blind, IMHO. The rest of us have to struggle with these questions, with our lives. It is a fruitless struggle and I say don't look outwards for your answers but look inwards. I don't believe I will ever find peace, but I have found something better through the challenging of life and also, sounds corny, through love. (arrogant, inflaming opinion warning) People with faith either truly have an understanding which cannot be conveyed with mortal tongue OR they are blind to their own deception and, not being able to cope with a world of questions, blindly believe. I believe a lot of people suffer from the later. In moments of weakness I wish I had faith, then I remember all the things I would have missed in life had I had faith, and am glad I am an heretic :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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We are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas. Frankly I am in awe of people who have faith because I find it very, nay VERY, difficult simply to believe in something without proof. Most of the time I atually wish I did have faith, life would be simpler. But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Bottom line though, the question of human origin pales in significance to the question of the universes origin... to my understanding of life we should not be here, nothing should be here. Not even nothing should exist. I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school :) ) One thing I do know: Any parent who tells their kids that either religion or evolution is right and the other is wrong needs a fat smack. Kids must make their own choice in the matter. No matter how hard you believe in something not even your kids are valid targets for "ideas down throat" behaviour. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? God had a very dodgy vindaloo the night before. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Lol! There was a UK ad campaign featuring "the Norm" a little while back. I hope you're not like him - he was a little grey and boring; not very flattering at all... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
