Evolution
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:laugh: hah, hah - hey guys we've a joker in our midst... ;P Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
:laugh: hah, hah - hey guys we've a joker in our midst...;P Joker no, Bastard yes. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution, so I can't comment... I resisted the urge for months, but now must ask a contentious question. How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Boy, I miss a day and look at the good discussions I get left out of... How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? Um... They died? ;P A little more verbosely, the Bible teaches that God created the world somewhere around 6,000-7,000 years ago. During the week of creation, God created everything saving man and most of the dinosaurs we think of for the sixth day. Roughly 2000 years later, Noah and his family were the only humans who even gave God a second thought. In spite of 120 years of warnings from Noah, none of them changed their minds, and God sent a flood that killed every human that wasn't in the ark as well as lots of sea creatures and probably all of the land creatures that weren't in the ark. (That's why we have so many fossils.) At that point were down to just a few dinosaurs, 2 of each kind (where a kind isn't a species, but is classified as the group of animals or plants that can breed with each other). There is evidence that dinosaurs were around for a while after that too. Most countries have dinosaur legends (called dragons until one or two hundred years ago). And most of those legends have one thing in common -- heros killing dragons. Sounds like a good explanation to me. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the "primates and other prehistoric species", especially since the only true "pre-history" is the non-time before(?) God created the universe. John
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Why should I treat my home page any better than I treat humanity. :) To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Nice one. ;) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I agree that to a large degree we have changed evolution by adjusting our environment to our needs rather than breeding to meet the environments requirements. But I doubt evolution has actually stopped. For one we are adapting to our own man made environments, like cities and underground tube networks. Certainly middle-ages man is not a perfect being for a city and so we are evolving away from that to better fit into our cities. The problem is that evolution takes tens of thousands of years, not the puny thousands that we have been around. So we will not notice any changes, but just because there are no noticeable changes does not mean it has stopped, right? I do not really know enough about evolution to base this on much though. On another point, maybe what is really "evolving" is our culture and knowledge. Maybe these evolutionary paths have overtaken the physical paths and become the more important ones. Sure this is not evolution as we know it but certainly and important aspect of it. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? Well thanks to our culture certain genes, such as blonde hair, fair skin, athletic ability, "brain capacity" and all the other things that "the beautiful people" have are certainly traits that are favoured, traits that are more likely amongst 6billion to survive. All in all we need a good many, many more years before we can see whether evolution is really changing us. By that time though our technology will be crafting us into whatever the currently accepted flavour is. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
When you say that evolution has not stopped, I have to ask when did it start? Can you point to even one example of an evolutionary chain where Chromosomes are added to a creature? Adaptation to environment is not evolution, Speciation is not evolution. There is clear cut evidence for both adaptation, and speciation in science. There have been repeatable experiments that prove that living things adapt and eventually break into species. However, there is not a single piece of physical evidence in which an animal or plant has jumped into, or formed an entirely new Genus, which would be required for 'evolution.' For example, all members of the Canis genus (wolves, dingos, dogs, etc.) all came from one breeding pair that survived the flood. Each of the species of Canis represents loss, not gain, of genetic material, and no Creationist will tell you that adaptation doesn't occur. It just not evolution. I grew up taking evolution as fact, however, finally placing evolution firmly back into the theory category has let me examine the evidence for what it is. One of the first things they teach a child in biology is that life comes from life, and that 19th century beliefs about toads forming from toadstools are superstition. Then along comes evolution, and they want you believe exactly that. That a non-living, but organic, soup of stuff suddenly created a self replicating DNA molecule more complex than anything mankind has ever come up with. It just doesn't follow. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4
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1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, fuck bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. But what's his master plan with the victims of rape and other atrocities that survive. Let them live with all the hate and fuck all they can do to fix it. Kill the perpetraor's and you have sinned, go to jail (gaol) and actually don't fix anything anyway. I know I am explaining the colour blue to the blind man. So think this rant will be my first and last religious post. I spent the first 10 years of my life believing in God. Went to Church and Sunday School, read the Bible (3 different versions) before the end of Primary school (12 years old). At the age of 9 I was sexually assaulted. Fucked me up, still all twisted. So earlier references are not blind rant for the arguement. Again, What is God's master plan for people like me? When do I get to feel all warm and gooey with the Father figure to look after me? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
This is going to be a long post, and I'm putting it here because I really want to help you. Please don't get upset if something I wrote sounds diffent. :) 1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. They were mentioned. Check out Job 40:15 - 41:10. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Yeah, translations muddy things a bit. But, the Bible isn't the translations -- it is the originals that the translations are made from. No inconsistencies and esoteric language there, in fact it was written for common every day people. Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? The evolutionary thought would go that way. Biblical thought acknowlegdes that God banned the killing of animals for food until the Flood, then told Noah that He had given them the animals for food as well. If we can eat them, the logic is that we can use the in other ways to keep ourselve alive. However, we should never be cruel to them. Even the sacrificial ceremonies God set up were not cruel to the animal being sacrificed. 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. God isn't "killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals". Adam and Eve sinned, bringing death and decay into the world as a result. Now, no plants, humans, or animals are as good (maybe not even all that close) to what God created. We're all a bunch of mutant versions of the original, with information being lost, not gained. (Hence the problem with in-breeding, etc.) Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If He did make other people on other planets, the Bible doesn't say anything that would cause us to have a problem with that. However, I tend to think that He did not, since the entire universe will be destroyed and a new one created when God finishes his dealings with people on earth. (2 Peter 3:9-18) (Those who love God will enjoy the
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what about DNA testing? do you believe DNA tests prove anything? if so, there's your link - DNA tests show how close we are to the other apes with far more accuracy than physiological comparisons. we use rats and pigs because it's cheaper to keep a 1 pound rat than a 70 pound chimp, plus rats and pigs breed faster and grow faster than apes. and... even though many people feel it would be unethical to experiment on apes, medical researchers still do a lot of tests on them. yes, many species have existed and died out. there is enough proof of that that denying it is a far greater leap of faith than believing it, in my opinion. "lesser" implies there is a direction or goal to evolution. there isn't. we're no better than any other creature, as far as evolution is concerned. things change, many critters die. the critters that don't die get to breed. end of story. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
what about DNA testing? do you believe DNA tests prove anything? if so, there's your link - DNA tests show how close we are to the other apes with far more accuracy than physiological comparisons. We don't know enough about DNA to "prove" that chimps and humans are close. What does "close" mean anyway? BTW, scientists are just learning that merely counting genes isn't enough to determine comparative complexity. Similar gene sequences arranged differently in humans are capable of producing 4 or 5 different proteins, whereas they produce only 1 or 2 in other animals. Until we get a good handle on all of that sort of thing, DNA comparisons between humans and animals aren't going to be useful for evolutionary evidence. Check out my post about the dinosaurs for a better understanding of why things dying out isn't a problem for those who believe the Bible. John
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Boy, I miss a day and look at the good discussions I get left out of... How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? Um... They died? ;P A little more verbosely, the Bible teaches that God created the world somewhere around 6,000-7,000 years ago. During the week of creation, God created everything saving man and most of the dinosaurs we think of for the sixth day. Roughly 2000 years later, Noah and his family were the only humans who even gave God a second thought. In spite of 120 years of warnings from Noah, none of them changed their minds, and God sent a flood that killed every human that wasn't in the ark as well as lots of sea creatures and probably all of the land creatures that weren't in the ark. (That's why we have so many fossils.) At that point were down to just a few dinosaurs, 2 of each kind (where a kind isn't a species, but is classified as the group of animals or plants that can breed with each other). There is evidence that dinosaurs were around for a while after that too. Most countries have dinosaur legends (called dragons until one or two hundred years ago). And most of those legends have one thing in common -- heros killing dragons. Sounds like a good explanation to me. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the "primates and other prehistoric species", especially since the only true "pre-history" is the non-time before(?) God created the universe. John
Sooo ... let me get this straight. Earth is 6-7000 years old. Dinosaurs created after Earth therefore less than 7000 years ago, but their fossils are dated as hundreds of millions of years old. Australian Aborigines been here in Australia for longer than 40,000 years. Straight maths says this is either bullshit or written by people doing serious, serious drugs. Could be drugs ... sounds like you've had some yourself. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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We are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas. Frankly I am in awe of people who have faith because I find it very, nay VERY, difficult simply to believe in something without proof. Most of the time I atually wish I did have faith, life would be simpler. But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Bottom line though, the question of human origin pales in significance to the question of the universes origin... to my understanding of life we should not be here, nothing should be here. Not even nothing should exist. I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school :) ) One thing I do know: Any parent who tells their kids that either religion or evolution is right and the other is wrong needs a fat smack. Kids must make their own choice in the matter. No matter how hard you believe in something not even your kids are valid targets for "ideas down throat" behaviour. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Actually, evolutionists believe that everything was formed from dust, too. They just speculate about a different form of "dust". (Dust being unorganized matter.) Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school ) Oooohhh... Some fun questions! It's too bad they kicked you out of Sunday School, not knowing the answers off the top of their head doesn't mean they should avoid the question. To answer the question... Check out my response to Chris below this post. :) John
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Sooo ... let me get this straight. Earth is 6-7000 years old. Dinosaurs created after Earth therefore less than 7000 years ago, but their fossils are dated as hundreds of millions of years old. Australian Aborigines been here in Australia for longer than 40,000 years. Straight maths says this is either bullshit or written by people doing serious, serious drugs. Could be drugs ... sounds like you've had some yourself. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
You're wasting your time Mike. Relgious "believers" aren't intereseted in scientific facts or proof. The "great flood" was the result of severely unstable regional weather patterns and the collapse of a natural sea-wall that held back a larger body of water. Nothing magical, mysterious, or even devine about it. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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Boy, I miss a day and look at the good discussions I get left out of... How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? Um... They died? ;P A little more verbosely, the Bible teaches that God created the world somewhere around 6,000-7,000 years ago. During the week of creation, God created everything saving man and most of the dinosaurs we think of for the sixth day. Roughly 2000 years later, Noah and his family were the only humans who even gave God a second thought. In spite of 120 years of warnings from Noah, none of them changed their minds, and God sent a flood that killed every human that wasn't in the ark as well as lots of sea creatures and probably all of the land creatures that weren't in the ark. (That's why we have so many fossils.) At that point were down to just a few dinosaurs, 2 of each kind (where a kind isn't a species, but is classified as the group of animals or plants that can breed with each other). There is evidence that dinosaurs were around for a while after that too. Most countries have dinosaur legends (called dragons until one or two hundred years ago). And most of those legends have one thing in common -- heros killing dragons. Sounds like a good explanation to me. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the "primates and other prehistoric species", especially since the only true "pre-history" is the non-time before(?) God created the universe. John
Sounds like a good explanation to me. sounds like insanity to me. so if people write something down, it must be real - people wouldn't lie or make up stories to scare their children into not doing stupid stuff. what about griffons, harpies, centaurs, minotaurs, medusas, sea monsters, succubii, incubii, vampires, big foots, abominable snowmen, werewolves, toothfaries and chupacabras ? did noah have two of those on his raft too? why did god only pick on land animals? (or did he kill everything in the sea, too?) the only evidence for Noah and a 6000 year old earth is from folklore. the evidence against is everywhere. At that point were down to just a few dinosaurs, 2 of each kind (where a kind isn't a species, but is classified as the group of animals or plants that can breed with each other). species: (1) : a category of biological classification ranking immediately below the genus or subgenus, comprising related organisms or populations potentially capable of interbreeding -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Actually, evolutionists believe that everything was formed from dust, too. They just speculate about a different form of "dust". (Dust being unorganized matter.) Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school ) Oooohhh... Some fun questions! It's too bad they kicked you out of Sunday School, not knowing the answers off the top of their head doesn't mean they should avoid the question. To answer the question... Check out my response to Chris below this post. :) John
Actually, evolutionists believe that everything was formed from dust, too. They just speculate about a different form of "dust". (Dust being unorganized matter.) Actually it was ooze, not dust ;P Also science has shown how ooze can transform into life, I have yet to see (or heard an explanation) someone transform a rib into a women (now THAT would be a good trick ;) ). Oooohhh... Some fun questions! It's too bad they kicked you out of Sunday School, not knowing the answers off the top of their head doesn't mean they should avoid the question. I doubt there are any answers to those questions in any religion. Once I figured out that no one knew the answer in my church I thought "Well then, what the hell am I doing believing in something that does not have even a basic answer to a basic question". regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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You're wasting your time Mike. Relgious "believers" aren't intereseted in scientific facts or proof. The "great flood" was the result of severely unstable regional weather patterns and the collapse of a natural sea-wall that held back a larger body of water. Nothing magical, mysterious, or even devine about it. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Did you watch that programme on TV as well? Bloody amazing I thought. Relgious "believers" aren't intereseted in scientific facts or proof Oh yes they are, but only when it proves their points. My favourite one was that some Christian scientists tried to recreate oil from bio-mass by mimicking conditions in a pressure tank. When they failed they declared this as proof that oil could not have been made naturally but only by God. hehe lovely stuff. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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The current human "model" has been around for quite some time, and it's hard to believe that mother nature isn't somehow trying to improve it in some way. Would we (as a race) be able to delineate an evolutionary step from a "quirk of nature" or simple birth defect, or would we try to second guess the natural order and attempt to "fix the problem"? To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Well its really not very old. Depending on what you refer to as the "model". Bipedal: about 4 million years+, Binocular vision about 3.5 mllion years. Tool using: about 3 million years. But the big explosion in brain size and emergence as a dominant species somewhat less than 1 million years. I think the next big step will be a convergence of biological and silicon intelligence. A melding so to speak of the mechanical and the animal. This will come about as the medical breakthroughs continue with mechanical organs. The Six Million Dollar man syndrome will be real. We will create the next generation f you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar
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I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? OK - bring that case of beer you are gonna owe me round to my place one day and I'll go through it with you. I haven't done this stuff for 10 years, but if my creaky memory serves me well then there are a couple of things you need to warp your brain around: - there is no 'outside' of the universe. - there is no 'before' the big bang. The universe isn't a bubble within a big empty room. The universe is that big empty room, yet the room, and the space and time that make up that room are expanding constantly - each point moving away from every other point due to the initial expansion and inflation of the universe. Maybe you should bring a spare case of beer. Just in case. As to how the universe was created and where it's energy came from, the answer to both is 'nothing'. There is a continual quantum foam of particles and anti-particles being created and anihilated (which is what causes black holes to evaporate - bring some tequila for that little fireside chat). As long as the net energy balance is always 0 then Mother Nature turns a blind eye. One theory goes that the Big Bang was a total doozy of a quantum fluctuation, with the energy contained in matter being counter balanced by the negative energy in gravity. The cool part comes from a theory that there came into being a 'false vacuum' whereby a part of the infinitesimal quantum fluctuation had a positive energy density even though it was a vacuum. This false vacuum has very large, but very negative pressure. Pressure creates a gravitational field, so a large, negative pressure in an infinititely small volume creates a very large, repulsive gravitational field which causes the universe to inflate by a factor of 10^25. What's really, really cool is that even while the universe is inflating the energy density remains constant. Energy increases by the cube of the inflation rate (ie 10^75) and is balanced out by an ever increasing gravitational field (which has negative energy). The inflation slows, the universe cools, quarks, protons, electrons and atoms form and eventually coagulate together to form Paul Watson. Total energy = 0 => the ultimate free lunch. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
I'll pass on the beer, but the discussion is something I just love. :-D - there is no 'outside' of the universe. Yes and no. For the universe to exist, it needs something to come from (that's part of the laws of our universe). However, we as part of the universe are incapable of leaving it (or even thinking outside of it most of the time). - there is no 'before' the big bang. Again, yes and no. Mostly, no, because there wasn't a big bang. Conceptually, though there was no 'before' before the universe because part of the universe is time itself. On the other hand, the universe (and time as part of it) had to come from somewhere. As to how the universe was created and where it's energy came from, the answer to both is 'nothing'. I thought I saw you about to say something interesting, but you turned 'nothing' into 'something' in the rest of your post. There is a continual quantum foam of particles and anti-particles being created and anihilated (which is what causes black holes to evaporate - bring some tequila for that little fireside chat). As long as the net energy balance is always 0 then Mother Nature turns a blind eye. One theory goes that the Big Bang was a total doozy of a quantum fluctuation, with the energy contained in matter being counter balanced by the negative energy in gravity. That is the popular sort of untested hypothesis that evolutionary scientists describe most often. But, this is the real problem -- we can push attempts to explain the origin of the universe farther and farther away from the physics we understand. However, the thought model continues to use the basic principles of our universe. Things come from other things; the fundamental particles of the universe work in a consistent manner though the behavior may change in different situations; etc. To truly get to where we're trying to go, we've got to understand our complete inability to actually understand the concept that we can vaguely see. God is not contained in the universe, just as you are not contained in anything you make (unless it's a vehicle or something :)). God is not bound by the laws that He created for/with the universe. In other words, once we conceptually leave the physical laws of our universe, we run into something we can't truly grapple with. There isn't a need for God to have an origin in time, space, or matter -- He created them. Applying the laws of the creation to the Creator just doesn't work. The "First Cause" is by definition not caused by an
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When you say that evolution has not stopped, I have to ask when did it start? Can you point to even one example of an evolutionary chain where Chromosomes are added to a creature? Adaptation to environment is not evolution, Speciation is not evolution. There is clear cut evidence for both adaptation, and speciation in science. There have been repeatable experiments that prove that living things adapt and eventually break into species. However, there is not a single piece of physical evidence in which an animal or plant has jumped into, or formed an entirely new Genus, which would be required for 'evolution.' For example, all members of the Canis genus (wolves, dingos, dogs, etc.) all came from one breeding pair that survived the flood. Each of the species of Canis represents loss, not gain, of genetic material, and no Creationist will tell you that adaptation doesn't occur. It just not evolution. I grew up taking evolution as fact, however, finally placing evolution firmly back into the theory category has let me examine the evidence for what it is. One of the first things they teach a child in biology is that life comes from life, and that 19th century beliefs about toads forming from toadstools are superstition. Then along comes evolution, and they want you believe exactly that. That a non-living, but organic, soup of stuff suddenly created a self replicating DNA molecule more complex than anything mankind has ever come up with. It just doesn't follow. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4
one breeding pair that survived the flood So you find it hard to believe in evolution but easy to believe that a dude in a boat with two of each species (pharking big boat that!) road out a flood that covered EVERY SINGLE mountain past its peak. You also believe that that flood came and went in just 40 days (whats that? like 200 feet per hour of rain?) and that from just the few people on board the entire human race has flourished from. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for [the one in authority] does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of Wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer -- Romans 13:4 That is the NUMBER ONE reason why I find Christianity a bad role model for anyone. You live in fear of your God instead of in being in love and peace with him. That is a phuked up way to live and a phuked up belief. Steven Mitcham, believe what you want, I shall believe what I want. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
.. in fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. Uh. What is "reading deeply"? You may have a good explanation of it, but usually it turns into, "looking for a way to make it say what I want rather than what it says". It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". Then what do you think these mean? "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so." Genesis 1:9 According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". Actually, the Bible says it all happened "just like that", but for some reason God did it in six different days, stopping on the seventh. One possible reason is that He wanted to set an example for us to use as our week. The Bible does make that relationship in a few places, one is in Exodus 20:11. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past. I certainly agree with you there. If you take a look at current scientists, most of them see problems with evolution in their specific fields, but assume that the other fields explain it away. The problem is that when they get together, they all see that evolution just doesn't work. Hence the newer attempts to keep evolution alive (like using mutations which Darwin didn't do, or punctuated equilibrium). The final 'theory' people will settle on will be the one found in the Bible because it's the right one (and it works the best). John
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> Does that mean you believe the Bible is wrong, or God is confused? God as an entity doesn't exist. The bible may be "history", but we all know that history is nothing but half-truths and outright lies glossed over with a thin film of conjecture, and propped up by a series of probabilities and human interpretation, pre-ackaged and propogated as fact to young minds who further re-evaluate and re-interprate to fit their own circumstances and observations. Yeah, that sounds like something on which I'd want to base *my* life. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Hmmm... How do you 'know' that the Bible's history is undependable? What evidence do you have? If you're saying what I think you're saying, you can't say the Bible is wrong since you don't have any reliable reason to think otherwise. I base my life on the Bible because it's the one book which has been right every time someone had an objective way to decide either way. John
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What about these hyperspace tunnels between separate universes? How do they fit into this picture? ;) Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
The universe exists in more than three dimensions. Hyperspace tunnels are where two separate points in the third dimension cross. I don't think they are related to the big bang.
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Sooo ... let me get this straight. Earth is 6-7000 years old. Dinosaurs created after Earth therefore less than 7000 years ago, but their fossils are dated as hundreds of millions of years old. Australian Aborigines been here in Australia for longer than 40,000 years. Straight maths says this is either bullshit or written by people doing serious, serious drugs. Could be drugs ... sounds like you've had some yourself. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Fossil dating is based on a bunch of assumptions. 1) The amount of radioactive material originally in the item. How do they know that? 2) The rate of decay for whatever they're measuring has never changed. How do they know that? Have they been measuring it during the time in question until now? Nope. 3) Nothing altered the item between the time they are measuring from until now. How do they know that, were they there watching it the whole time? Those sorts of assumptions "hold up" all the fossil dating methods. I'm not going to base any important beliefs on that. Straight math is good, but it needs good information to be useful. John
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Actually, evolutionists believe that everything was formed from dust, too. They just speculate about a different form of "dust". (Dust being unorganized matter.) Actually it was ooze, not dust ;P Also science has shown how ooze can transform into life, I have yet to see (or heard an explanation) someone transform a rib into a women (now THAT would be a good trick ;) ). Oooohhh... Some fun questions! It's too bad they kicked you out of Sunday School, not knowing the answers off the top of their head doesn't mean they should avoid the question. I doubt there are any answers to those questions in any religion. Once I figured out that no one knew the answer in my church I thought "Well then, what the hell am I doing believing in something that does not have even a basic answer to a basic question". regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
Couldn't you take a DNA sample from the rib, switch the gender gene to female and clone it?
