Noah, One Continent and about a Billion Years Too Short
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Ok, I'm going to answer several threads in this one so that I don't have to follow a bunch of separate threads. Here are some things about the issues that have been raised in this thread so far. 1) The Global/Local flood -- I have heard several arguments either way on this one. One is that the word that is translated as 'earth' also can mean area or region, and is used both ways in the Genesis account. If you take the Bible as truth, mankind did not spread across the earth until after the flood, when God destroyed the tower of Babel, so to destroy all men at the time would only take a local flood to accomplish. 2) Perfect Genes -- Although seemingly enough to cause heart attacks, this idea is quite straight forward. God's creation was perfect. Adam was given the choice of obeying God or not obeying God. He chose poorly. In cursing Adam for his failure, God altered the universe to make it a harsh place for Adam to live in. This is the point at which death enters the universe, and it is made clear, through the act of God killing an animal to make clothing for Adam (the real first killing in the Bible). As time marched on mutations entered into the gene pool. No christian will tell you that mutation isn't possible. However, mutations are almost always negative. You don't see the prohibition for incest until Moses' time, which was probably when the gene pool was corroded enough that birth defects were likely. Since they were also being told for the first time, they probably did not have a problem with it beforehand (the preceding scentence is conjecture). 3) Cain's wife, and the 'other people' in Genesis. There is no indication of the length of time that passes between the creation account and the story of Cain and Abel. It is likely that Adam had more than 500 direct children before his death, and given the life spans described in Genesis several generations would be alive, probably several thousand people. The story of Cain does not state that he went off and found a wife, it says he went off and knew his wife, leaving it possible that he took his wife with him and left. 4) The flood -- The verse in the bible, in most translations other than the KJV, that talks about how far the waters rose state that the waters covered the mountains by 15 cubits. That is the waters covered everything to a minimum depth of 15 feet. 5) Sorry Chris, but there is definately a term for the number forty in Hebrew. Now in the numerolgy of Hebrew there are special meanings for the numbers 40, 1000, a
However, mutations are almost always negative What? How does that work? A mutation is a change, and should have an equal chance of being good or bad...unless you consider that evolution has already brought us to the point where we have kept all the good mutations, and those with bad mutations didn't survive - which would then mean that mutations are more likely to be bad since we are the 'cream of the crop' so to speak in regards to collective random changes. Sorry Chris, but there is definately a term for the number forty in Hebrew In the Hebrew that the bible was written in? I could have sworn I read a reference about there not being one, but after not being able to find it again I figured it may have been a furfy. much more genetic diversity than they expected, along with a healthy population. That's fruit fly. It's not the same for hippopotumuses. Take a look at the problems with endangered species: once the population gets below a certain point (I think my biologist friends once had a debate about this and mumbled the number '7' - though that could have been the number of lagers they'd had) there is no chance for the species to recover. Again - I'm no biologist so I'm happy to be proved wrong. Nothing conclusive, just a possibility to you non-believers. There are also volumes of work on evolution and the continual change in the genetic makeup of plants and animals. The possibility of entertaining ideas that go against one's own belief goes both ways ;) cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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Er... I don't know where Christian got his idea from, but it isn't a Bible source. The Bible clearly says that Adam and Eve had daughters as well. This means it was quite easy for non-sinful 'inbreeding' to work without anyone marrying someone else's spouse. Genesis 5:4 John
Well ... I thought marrying and fucking your sister was a sin? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Got the inbreeding thing from a John Fisher post earlier today. Personally always wondered how Kane and Able perpetuated the Human race. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Personally always wondered how Kane and Able perpetuated the Human race. I cannot believe you let slide such a golden opportunity to make a Tasmanian joke here. ;P cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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Ok, I'm going to answer several threads in this one so that I don't have to follow a bunch of separate threads. Here are some things about the issues that have been raised in this thread so far. 1) The Global/Local flood -- I have heard several arguments either way on this one. One is that the word that is translated as 'earth' also can mean area or region, and is used both ways in the Genesis account. If you take the Bible as truth, mankind did not spread across the earth until after the flood, when God destroyed the tower of Babel, so to destroy all men at the time would only take a local flood to accomplish. 2) Perfect Genes -- Although seemingly enough to cause heart attacks, this idea is quite straight forward. God's creation was perfect. Adam was given the choice of obeying God or not obeying God. He chose poorly. In cursing Adam for his failure, God altered the universe to make it a harsh place for Adam to live in. This is the point at which death enters the universe, and it is made clear, through the act of God killing an animal to make clothing for Adam (the real first killing in the Bible). As time marched on mutations entered into the gene pool. No christian will tell you that mutation isn't possible. However, mutations are almost always negative. You don't see the prohibition for incest until Moses' time, which was probably when the gene pool was corroded enough that birth defects were likely. Since they were also being told for the first time, they probably did not have a problem with it beforehand (the preceding scentence is conjecture). 3) Cain's wife, and the 'other people' in Genesis. There is no indication of the length of time that passes between the creation account and the story of Cain and Abel. It is likely that Adam had more than 500 direct children before his death, and given the life spans described in Genesis several generations would be alive, probably several thousand people. The story of Cain does not state that he went off and found a wife, it says he went off and knew his wife, leaving it possible that he took his wife with him and left. 4) The flood -- The verse in the bible, in most translations other than the KJV, that talks about how far the waters rose state that the waters covered the mountains by 15 cubits. That is the waters covered everything to a minimum depth of 15 feet. 5) Sorry Chris, but there is definately a term for the number forty in Hebrew. Now in the numerolgy of Hebrew there are special meanings for the numbers 40, 1000, a
I'm confused ! (no comment Christian, please) 1) Seems to offer the possibility of a local or global flood; 4) Seems to be suggesting a global flood; 6) Seems to infer either a global flood (affected everybody, no matter where they lived) or a local flood (the story spread when the survivors spread). You seem to have missed the obvious conclusion here - that perhaps there have been floods in South America, China and North America sometime in the past several million years (or 4,000 years, if you are a true Creationist). And your conclusion offers : Finally, there are a lot of answers that I don't have (i.e. where did the water come from and where did it go?) but I am willing to accept that something did happen to it because I trust in the Word of God. So, you aren't sure if it was local or global and you can't explain how it happened? Yet you're sure it did, in some form, because the bible sort of says something about it (minus lots of the details). I think I'll pass on that as much of an explanation - and it doesn't sound like you have much to offer beyond "the biblical flood must have happened, because the bible says so". Thanks for that enlightening contribution... ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Personally always wondered how Kane and Able perpetuated the Human race. I cannot believe you let slide such a golden opportunity to make a Tasmanian joke here. ;P cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
Look around I have been slipping in Tasmanian jokes galore and peppering Christian at the same time. Haven't done in many posts not including an Australian as most people in these discussions don't have maps of the world or globes with Tasmania on them. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I cannot let this one go, not in a million years. In the Evolution thread below (which turned out rather fun didn't it? ;) ) I got a bit hot headed at John Fisher who tried to discount evolution by stating that Noah's flood was for real and that every species on earth (including 6.3billion human beings) came from just what was onboard his ark. Now I am not discounting Noah, I believe it comes from somewhere but is not quite as catastrophic as the Bible suggests. However in reply to my hot-headed rebuke of John's post I got this reply: Understandably, you're trying to reconcile the flood story with your understanding of the world and it's not working. The world before the flood was vastly different than it is now. Before the flood, there was only one continent. (Genesis 1:9) During the flood, the entire topography of the earth was changed with mountains rising where land masses collided and the previous layout of the earth being totally altered. (In the meantime, it buried most of things that we now see as fossils.) One good conclusion (since the Bible doesn't say otherwise) is that the pre-flood world had nothing like what we consider mountains today. Rather they were more like our bluffs or even smaller. Now I nearly had apopoplexy when I read this. It is not a matter of not believing in continental drift and the whole one mother continent splitting into what we see today (and in a few billion years our Earth will look very different), but rather the timescales involved. From what I gather John is saying that in the span of 40 days and 40 nights the entire Earth changed. Africa, Asia, Australia, Antartica, America etc. all formed in those few days. The Himalayan mountain range came to be along with the Great Rift Valley in Africa. Naturally deep sea trenches had to be formed at the same time. Also I assume the largest mountain on Earth, one of the Hawai islands I believe, also came to be. All from one continent, some bluffs, the action of a lot of water and all in 40 days, and 40 nights. Now don't tell me I am being literal with the Bible here, these are from John's mouth (fingers) and he seems to be an educated and literate person. So can someone tell me, what gives? Did something which I believe took 4.2billion years actually happen in 40 days and 40 nights? I am not wanting to start a flame war here, I just need someone else, knowledgeable of the Bible, to tell me how this all actually fits in. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We wo
Sorry about the confusion. This is just one of those areas where there's a lot of information in my head, and I happened to leave out some of the stuff that would have changed your post (at least a little). As far as the time scale is concerned, I don't claim that it all happened in 40 days and nights -- that's just how long the flood waters continued upward. The flood waters didn't abate until 115 days after it started according to Genesis 8:3. (Not that this number of days will really seem significant in comparison to the evolutionary time scale.) Also, the world hasn't been inactive since the flood. Volcanoes erupt and mountains form. It's been somewhere around 4000-5000 years since the flood, too. BTW, this link explains a little about the ice-age and has some side-issues which may help you understand where I'm coming from. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v11n2_iceage.asp There is a lot of other information I could give you, but I don't even know where to start. I guess specific questions are a good way to go, so please keep posting. John
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Look around I have been slipping in Tasmanian jokes galore and peppering Christian at the same time. Haven't done in many posts not including an Australian as most people in these discussions don't have maps of the world or globes with Tasmania on them. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Yeah but it was a reply to Christian which talked about inbreeding. DOH - and Michael fumbles the ball... (oops - Christian is starting to looki suspicious) cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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Yeah but it was a reply to Christian which talked about inbreeding. DOH - and Michael fumbles the ball... (oops - Christian is starting to looki suspicious) cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
Yeah but it was a reply to Christian which talked about inbreeding. It was recovering old ground from a previous thread where I hammered Christian with inbreeding. He came back with West Coast and Married with Children references. Didn't think a second mention was clever or in context. "Oh No, Magnificent Maunder has gone to the top rope. Preparing for his double somersault with triple twist piledriver with people's foot odour." "Wait ... what's this, Magic Mick is up on his feet. He has Magnificent Maunder in what looks to be a Squirrel Grip. Maunder has pulled the pin, he has retired. What a wuss". :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Well ... I thought marrying and fucking your sister was a sin? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Only after God said it was a sin which wasn't until several hundred years after the flood. The Bible indicates this first by not giving the command until after the Israelites left Egypt (Leviticus 18-21), second by showing that God honored Abraham's marriage to his half-sister by making her son the one through which God established the nation of Israel. John
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The different sorts of "thought systems" people apply to try to understand the world around them has always fascinated me. I am also a proponent of the scientific explaination of things and believe current biologic/geologic theories to be far more satisfying intellectually than religious ones. However, I'm not sure I would want to live in a world devoid of religious faith, one relying only upon a soulless dependency upon the next scientific discovery for enlightenment. I don't believe I would very much enjoy living in a world without folks like John Fisher. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
Tony Blair and Mr Bush should take a leaf out of your diplomacy book :) Either that or you are John Fisher... hehe Actually you are right, if everyone agreed about evolution, women and the sock-monster then life would be rather dull. Imagine life without Linux zealots? Dull indeed. :-D regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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Sorry about the confusion. This is just one of those areas where there's a lot of information in my head, and I happened to leave out some of the stuff that would have changed your post (at least a little). As far as the time scale is concerned, I don't claim that it all happened in 40 days and nights -- that's just how long the flood waters continued upward. The flood waters didn't abate until 115 days after it started according to Genesis 8:3. (Not that this number of days will really seem significant in comparison to the evolutionary time scale.) Also, the world hasn't been inactive since the flood. Volcanoes erupt and mountains form. It's been somewhere around 4000-5000 years since the flood, too. BTW, this link explains a little about the ice-age and has some side-issues which may help you understand where I'm coming from. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v11n2_iceage.asp There is a lot of other information I could give you, but I don't even know where to start. I guess specific questions are a good way to go, so please keep posting. John
John, I am afraid we will never be able to have any kind of meaningful debate! You sound so intelligent and well read, yet you accept entirely ridiculous statements without blinking an eye! The page you to link to : Suggests the ice age happened less that 4000 years ago; The last (first/only?) Ice Age lasted less that 1000 years; the world had pleasant topography and climate everywhere What - the entire world (a globe, set off axis and cicling the sun) had the same temperature and climate everywhere? No seasons ?? I'm afraid you chose to ignore hundreds of years of clear, careful work by many thousands of men and women, of many religions (including no religion), in order to promote the nonsense of a few so called academics who sift through the enormous body of scientific evidence to find any little contradiction or perceived failing, and then proclaim the entire thing must be wrong - and then offer nonsensical theories of "massive continental changes" that occur over time frames of a few hundred years. Well, we are SO FAR APART that we can't even begin to discuss this. And I must disagree with Stan's earlier post - despite any spiritual or faith-based experiences you bring to the planet, your ability to plainly look past clear, precise and overwhelming evidence and instead pursue childish and simplistic Creationist concepts means we'd be better of without you and your dogma. (and yes, that does sound a little harsh!) ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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However, mutations are almost always negative What? How does that work? A mutation is a change, and should have an equal chance of being good or bad...unless you consider that evolution has already brought us to the point where we have kept all the good mutations, and those with bad mutations didn't survive - which would then mean that mutations are more likely to be bad since we are the 'cream of the crop' so to speak in regards to collective random changes. Sorry Chris, but there is definately a term for the number forty in Hebrew In the Hebrew that the bible was written in? I could have sworn I read a reference about there not being one, but after not being able to find it again I figured it may have been a furfy. much more genetic diversity than they expected, along with a healthy population. That's fruit fly. It's not the same for hippopotumuses. Take a look at the problems with endangered species: once the population gets below a certain point (I think my biologist friends once had a debate about this and mumbled the number '7' - though that could have been the number of lagers they'd had) there is no chance for the species to recover. Again - I'm no biologist so I'm happy to be proved wrong. Nothing conclusive, just a possibility to you non-believers. There are also volumes of work on evolution and the continual change in the genetic makeup of plants and animals. The possibility of entertaining ideas that go against one's own belief goes both ways ;) cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
Hey Chris, The reason mutations are "bad" is not because them merely make a change, but because they result in a loss of genetic information. Since genes are an informational structure, it works the same was as words in these posts. If I were to type, "Chris Maunder is an intrysting guy." You would know right away that the "mutated" word was wrong and needed to be fixed. Genes work the same way, since the collection is designed to accomplish a goal and an incorrect gene hampers the ability to accomplish that goal. As far as the genetic diversity problem with 2 of a kind producing the animals we now see goes; the problem is that you base your assumptions on the evolutionary model of upward progression from less information. The Bible model starts from perfect genes and then the effects of sin cause random mutations to slowly corrupt the gene pool. So, now it would be very difficult to find two of a species that could produce enough genetically diverse offspring in order to have a long-lasting and healty set of descendants. John John
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However, mutations are almost always negative What? How does that work? A mutation is a change, and should have an equal chance of being good or bad...unless you consider that evolution has already brought us to the point where we have kept all the good mutations, and those with bad mutations didn't survive - which would then mean that mutations are more likely to be bad since we are the 'cream of the crop' so to speak in regards to collective random changes. Sorry Chris, but there is definately a term for the number forty in Hebrew In the Hebrew that the bible was written in? I could have sworn I read a reference about there not being one, but after not being able to find it again I figured it may have been a furfy. much more genetic diversity than they expected, along with a healthy population. That's fruit fly. It's not the same for hippopotumuses. Take a look at the problems with endangered species: once the population gets below a certain point (I think my biologist friends once had a debate about this and mumbled the number '7' - though that could have been the number of lagers they'd had) there is no chance for the species to recover. Again - I'm no biologist so I'm happy to be proved wrong. Nothing conclusive, just a possibility to you non-believers. There are also volumes of work on evolution and the continual change in the genetic makeup of plants and animals. The possibility of entertaining ideas that go against one's own belief goes both ways ;) cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
This is essentially an argument of assumptions. You assume that the world existed for billions of years. And based upon that assumption, you interpret the evidence that has been discovered concerning the past. I assume that the world was created by God, and so of course the same evidence that you find in favor of your argument, I find in favor of mine. For example, you say biologists say that a few animals cannot maintain the species. But you are talking about modern animals, and I would agree that modern animals genetic code is degraded to the point where that may be impossible. Also, the fact that animals are dying off at ever increasing rates shows, to me, that genetics are weakening. (Not all endangered and extinct species were made that way by men.) So, this particular line of argument is pointless. I will end this point with a shift to attack some of your old-earth assumptions: 1) There are galaxies that have been discovered at the edge of the known universe, some 14 billion light years away, and therefore (using your non-creation calculations) the light must be 14 billion years old, which is roughly the age of the universe calculated by Big-Bang theorists. However, a fully formed modern galaxy is thought to take tens of billions of years to form. Therefore, under your theory, there is not enough time since the creation to have made this galaxy that we see. There are other structures in the universe that scientists feel have not had enough time to generate also. 2) There is an abandoned gold mine in either Utah or Idaho that is only about 80 years old. The timbers used to shore up the mine shafts have completely petrified in the time since the mine shut down. That is a process that is supposed to take millions of years. There are also cave formations of stalactites and stalagmites that should take at least thousands of years that have also formed in the time since the mine was shut down. I don't have all of the technical answers to these questions because I am a computer programmer, and a hobbiest at evolution and history. However, I do know that for every crack-pot creationist out there there is both a credible, careful scientist gathering evidence for creation. There is also a crack-pot atheist out there telling us that aliens seeded the earth. So I'll rest in my assurance of salvation and continue to answer questions to the best of my ability. :-D "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will
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John, I am afraid we will never be able to have any kind of meaningful debate! You sound so intelligent and well read, yet you accept entirely ridiculous statements without blinking an eye! The page you to link to : Suggests the ice age happened less that 4000 years ago; The last (first/only?) Ice Age lasted less that 1000 years; the world had pleasant topography and climate everywhere What - the entire world (a globe, set off axis and cicling the sun) had the same temperature and climate everywhere? No seasons ?? I'm afraid you chose to ignore hundreds of years of clear, careful work by many thousands of men and women, of many religions (including no religion), in order to promote the nonsense of a few so called academics who sift through the enormous body of scientific evidence to find any little contradiction or perceived failing, and then proclaim the entire thing must be wrong - and then offer nonsensical theories of "massive continental changes" that occur over time frames of a few hundred years. Well, we are SO FAR APART that we can't even begin to discuss this. And I must disagree with Stan's earlier post - despite any spiritual or faith-based experiences you bring to the planet, your ability to plainly look past clear, precise and overwhelming evidence and instead pursue childish and simplistic Creationist concepts means we'd be better of without you and your dogma. (and yes, that does sound a little harsh!) ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
Mike, You're running off some bad assumptions, the primary one being that you know why I believe what I believe. Directly related to that is the assumption that there isn't more evidence than what I've already talked about. The evolutionary viewpoint and Bible/Creation viewpoint use completely different series of assumptions and supporting arguments. Using one set of assumptions to disprove the conclusions of the other is not a useful way to debate things. First, you assume that I agree 100% with that article. Second, you assume that the earth has always been off-axis. It is possible that this has not always been the case, though I can't show you good evidence that it wasn't. Third, you assume that there isn't any way for a tilted earth to have a uniform climate. There are several Creationist theories about how that worked. Read up on some of them. "vapor canopy" would be the most useful search keywords. Well, we are SO FAR APART that we can't even begin to discuss this. And I must disagree with Stan's earlier post - despite any spiritual or faith-based experiences you bring to the planet, your ability to plainly look past clear, precise and overwhelming evidence and instead pursue childish and simplistic Creationist concepts means we'd be better of without you and your dogma. (and yes, that does sound a little harsh!) Actually, I've had much more harsh things directed at me. No big deal. :) However, I'm not plainly looking past the "past clear, precise and overwhelming evidence" since you haven't given me any of that. From what I remember of your posts, they are merely an attempt to discredit the creationist viewpoint. Besides, if the evidence was so clear, precise, and overwhelming, the evolutionists wouldn't be arguing among themselves about the most basic aspects of evolution. Here's a related link: http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-173.htm#footnote4 Actually, I'm starting to wonder if you're not showing signs of being the one to ignore the evidence shown by the other side. But then, if all the information from creationism that you've seen is from what I've said, you don't have much to go on, yet. John
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There is a great article I read about the Flood but unfortunately I can't find it at the moment. In lieu, check out 'Common Sense and Noah's Flood. This has some of the hydrologic and meteorological arguments against a world-wide flood, but doesn't touch the thermodynamic impossibilities (the entire planet being at over 40C/110F with 99% rel. humidity or something like that just to hold the water vapour in cloud form). Then there are the genetic arguments: you need a minimum gene pool for a race to survive. Two of each won't do it. For an argument about a likely Ark scenario see Noah's ark had less than 280 animals. For an account of why getting two or seven of each animal on board is impossible check out Problems with a Global Flood. In any case, I think it's generally accepted that there was a flood but only in a relatively small area. In my view the Bible contains stories - some accurate, some dramatised or exagerated, and some made up. Anyone who tries to apply the scientific principle to such a work to support their faith is doomed to failure (and is welcome to come door knocking around my place anytime!). Besides - Christianity is based purely on faith and not on data, so even if you do prove something right or something wrong it doesn't actually affect the underlying principles. ooh - found the thing about thermodynamics: "_Is there enough water to cover the earth? The vapor canopy is remarkably flawed. It would take about 9 kilometers of water to cover Mount Everest. The air pressure at sea level is one atmosphere, or about 14.5 pounds per square inch. There would have to be enough vapor to produce 9 km of water. This vapor would add air pressure to the atmosphere; in fact, it would be the majority of the antediluvian atmosphere. This would be the equivalent of living 9 km underwater. Since the pressure increases by one atmosphere about every ten meters you go underwater, the vapor would add 900 atmospheres, or 13050 pounds per square inch, to the air pressure. And the only way to keep all this water from condensing would be to raise the temperature. The pressure and heat would surely be enough to kill life as we know it." - http://skepdic.com/comments/noahcom.html_ As to the whole time scale thing there is no reason to equate a 'day' with a day as we know it. There is
Hi Chris, I get the impression that your forays in the the Creation/Evolution debate were a while ago. Maybe not, but that's the impression I got from somewhere. :confused: Anyway, here is a page full of links to discussion of the ark-related questions you raised. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/noah.asp There are reasonable answers to each of those issues, especially if you understand the entire creationist model. Here's a good link to where the water came from and addresses your mention of the vapor canopy idea. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/tools/flood-waters.asp John
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Like many of the stories in the bible, the truth is that they are adapted versions of myths and legends of earlier civilizations. The following excerpt from "Warfare of Science with Theology" recounts the vents that finally lead to the rejection of the literal Noah story: By the investigations of George Smith among the Assyrian tablets of the British Museum, in 1872, and by his discoveries just afterward in Assyria, it was put beyond a reasonable doubt that a great mass of accounts in Genesis are simply adaptations of earlier and especially of Chaldean myths and legends. While this proved to be the fact as regards the accounts of Creation and the fall of man, it was seen to be most strikingly so as regards the Deluge. The eleventh of the twelve tablets, on which the most important of these inscriptions was found, was almost wholly preserved, and it revealed in this legend, dating from a time far earlier than that of Moses, such features peculiar to the childhood of the world as the building of the great ship or ark to escape the flood, the careful caulking of its seams, the saving of a man beloved of Heaven, his selecting and taking with him into the vessel animals of all sorts in couples, the impressive final closing of the door, the sending forth different birds as the flood abated, the offering of sacrifices when the flood had subsided, the joy of the Divine Being who had caused the flood as the odour of the sacrifice reached his nostrils; while throughout all was shown that partiality for the Chaldean sacred number seven which appears so constantly in the Genesis legends and throughout the Hebrew sacred books. Other devoted scholars followed in the paths thus opened - Sayce in England, Lenormant in France, Schrader in Germany - with the result that the Hebrew account of the Deluge, to which for ages theologians had obliged all geological research to conform, was quietly relegated, even by most eminent Christian scholars, to the realm of myth and legend. Of course, any number of religious organisations reject such evidence, with excuses ranging from "Satan faked the evidence to confuse the true believers" to "you have to understand, the bible needs to be read 'in totality' to be truly understood". ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
The problem with that theory is that they can't safely assume that these myths and legend actually came before the Bible accounts, especially if you're right in your assumption that the book of Genesis was passed on orally for a long time. John
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Genesis : 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; Gen.4:16-17 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth The Bible uses the same terminology to describe Cain's banishment - 'from the face of the earth' Depends upon the bible you refer to, and to the translations, and to which of the 5,000 or so of the original greek manuscripts you are working from (none of which match word for word, of course!) - In this case, the bible I'm working from (King James Version) does NOT use the same phrase for the banishment of Cain as it does for the flooding of "the earth". In both cases here "the earth" means EVERYWHERE you can go. That is, it is (apparently) a 'global' meaning, not a 'local' meaning. In relation to Flood, it says "the earth" was flooded. In the banishment of Cain, it says "And now art thou cursed from the earth", followed by "a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth". I concede the first quote says "from the earth", but it says "cursed", not "banished" or "removed". It seems a long shot to claim that the phrase "cursed from the earth" MUST mean that earth means only a small region of the planet! Of course, if you work from a different bible translation the words are probably not identical, and therefore we are simply talking in circles! What bible do you quote as the 'true' words/translation of god ? You must have a 'reference' version, or else any argument on any point can degenerate into simply arguing about translations - and you therefore would be forced to concede that your entire interpretation of various passages holds only if the tranlstion holds! Now, I'll grant that the word ALLOWS for the possibility of a worldwide flood, but it does not SAY that necessarily, and so my belief on what happens stems in part from the Bible text ( first and foremost ), and also context of other verses. So the mere fact that for virtually the entire 2000 year history of christianity the overwhelming majority of people decided to go with the "ALLOWS"(global) meaning rather than the "SAY"(local) meaning doesn't bother you at all ? The bible DOES indeed allow for a global meaning, and you represent a tiny fraction of a percent of the people who belive in the bible and yet choose to reinterpret these verses. That doesn't seem a little conceited to you? That you are right, and ev
Of course, if you work from a different bible translation the words are probably not identical, and therefore we are simply talking in circles! What bible do you quote as the 'true' words/translation of god ? If the translations are unclear I turn to the original texts and a lexicon. Regarding years of tradition on the subject, the fact is that religion hid the Bible from people for most of the Christian age, so it's not like we have 2,000 years of people actually pondering it. It's more that some stories were better known, and their contents are assumed to be as was taught in Sunday School. For example, the Bible nowhere says people die and go to heaven. But it's a nice idea, so people assume it's in there when they read the Bible. Well, I was going to post asking what rock videos you have ripped, but this kind of caught my eye and distracted me. My list of mpg and mp3s is now just under 10,000. I mostly concentrate on bands like Cinderella, Guns n Roses, Motley Crue, etc., but I also love 80's pop like Duran Duran, and I especially jump at the chance to grab obscure one hit wonders from the 80's. I am looking everywhere for Shiny Shiny by Hayzee Fantayzee, for example. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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The problem with that theory is that they can't safely assume that these myths and legend actually came before the Bible accounts, especially if you're right in your assumption that the book of Genesis was passed on orally for a long time. John
No John, not really. The only way in which these clear, proven and sensible facts can turn out to be 'theories' that are 'base dupon assumptions' is if you completely overturn the entire bodies of scientific knowledge known as Geology, Biology, Astronomy, etc (I won't bother to list the endless stream of scientific disciplines that easily and conclusively prove the world is more thatn 6000 years old, and that many man made structures and artifacts (from stome tablets to tools) predate the biblical timetable by many thousands of years). Of course, this is precisely what Creationists do - ignore the overwhemling body of facts in favor of a lazy, disjointed collection of wild theories (the Ark actially held 16,000 different species of animal, for example - please!!), often supported by any pereieved 'hole' that can be found in existing knowledge. There is one true, clear , unarguable difference between science and Creationism. Creationism says the underlying fact is already known, and is unchangeable - that is, god created the worlds according to the biblical stories. This is the 'theory' that the facts need to support. So we continually look for facts that support this theory, and we ignore, twist and challenge continuous and evidence that is in contradiction to this theoyr. In Creationism, the 'theory' cannot be changed, it is the facts that must be forced to fit the theory. Science operates at both ends. For exmaple, we come up with the theory of evolution, based upon the evidence we have gathered. As we gather more evidence we flesh out the theory. If the evidence continues to support the theory, it matures. If substantial evidence is found that contradicts or breaks the theory, then we begin a process of (a) gathering more evidence, (b) re-examining the conflicting evidence to see if perhaps there has been an error in interpretation or gathering methods and (c) re-examine the theory to see how it might be modified to incorporate these new facts. This is science - let the evidence take you where it will (while also remembering to check and recheck the evidence to ensure it's integrity). The 'end point' of science is unknown - it flows in whichever direction the evidence leads. Creationism is anti-science. The end is already known, and it's a matter of trying to force all known facts to fit this all encompassing and invariant theory of creation. I can't even begin to post 'anti-creationist' links, since virtually the entire body of modern science contains fundamental contradictions to th
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Mike, You're running off some bad assumptions, the primary one being that you know why I believe what I believe. Directly related to that is the assumption that there isn't more evidence than what I've already talked about. The evolutionary viewpoint and Bible/Creation viewpoint use completely different series of assumptions and supporting arguments. Using one set of assumptions to disprove the conclusions of the other is not a useful way to debate things. First, you assume that I agree 100% with that article. Second, you assume that the earth has always been off-axis. It is possible that this has not always been the case, though I can't show you good evidence that it wasn't. Third, you assume that there isn't any way for a tilted earth to have a uniform climate. There are several Creationist theories about how that worked. Read up on some of them. "vapor canopy" would be the most useful search keywords. Well, we are SO FAR APART that we can't even begin to discuss this. And I must disagree with Stan's earlier post - despite any spiritual or faith-based experiences you bring to the planet, your ability to plainly look past clear, precise and overwhelming evidence and instead pursue childish and simplistic Creationist concepts means we'd be better of without you and your dogma. (and yes, that does sound a little harsh!) Actually, I've had much more harsh things directed at me. No big deal. :) However, I'm not plainly looking past the "past clear, precise and overwhelming evidence" since you haven't given me any of that. From what I remember of your posts, they are merely an attempt to discredit the creationist viewpoint. Besides, if the evidence was so clear, precise, and overwhelming, the evolutionists wouldn't be arguing among themselves about the most basic aspects of evolution. Here's a related link: http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-173.htm#footnote4 Actually, I'm starting to wonder if you're not showing signs of being the one to ignore the evidence shown by the other side. But then, if all the information from creationism that you've seen is from what I've said, you don't have much to go on, yet. John
John, The evolutionary viewpoint and Bible/Creation viewpoint use completely different series of assumptions and supporting arguments Yes, I agree almost completely - the one point of difference (and it is THE crucial point) is that the non-creationist world view seeks to find a theory that contains the evidence. As evidence is discovered, detailed, examined and reviewed, the theories of the world are adapted and refined. On the other hand, Creationist theories use scientific methods and processes up to the point at which they fail, then we simply insert 'god made it so' to resolve whatever contradiction we have encountered, then we go back to using basically scientific methods again. This give creationism a veneer of respectability, and allows many people to largely resolve the conflicts of science and creationism in their own minds. However, it does NOT address the fact that creationism (specifically "Young Earth Creatinism") uses science only so far, and has no problem abandoning it when it wants to. On the other hand, science does not have this 'out'. If you can produce solid evidence, then the scientific theory you are attacking (whatever one it might be) must fail. This has happened before and will happen again. Science does not deal in 'unalterable truths'. Perhaps I best put it like this : 1. Creationism CANNOT be proven - certain key behaviours are, by definition, outside of the physical universe, and therefore cannot be explained or contained within a physical world view. 2. Creationism CANNOT be disproved - for the same reason as above. To disprove it would require the ability to disprove 'faith', which cannot be done for the same reasons as above. 3. Scientific theories like Evolution are unlikely to ever be 'proven'. Science can never say 'this thing is and must always be so', as this would require all knowledge of all things. Since this is an unlikely goal to ever be achieved, science instead can say only 'this is highly likely', or 'we have no reason to doubt this is so'. 4. Scientific theories like Evolution CAN be disproved. The history of science is a history of fallen theories. That's the whole point of it all - as the evidence comes to light that demonstrates you were wrong, you move on. So, to me this makes it all very clear. In the end, we can neither prove nor disprove creationism. We can never truly prove a scientific theory. So, our only avenue that is open to reasonable debate is to try and disprove science. So this is where energy MUST
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Hey Chris, The reason mutations are "bad" is not because them merely make a change, but because they result in a loss of genetic information. Since genes are an informational structure, it works the same was as words in these posts. If I were to type, "Chris Maunder is an intrysting guy." You would know right away that the "mutated" word was wrong and needed to be fixed. Genes work the same way, since the collection is designed to accomplish a goal and an incorrect gene hampers the ability to accomplish that goal. As far as the genetic diversity problem with 2 of a kind producing the animals we now see goes; the problem is that you base your assumptions on the evolutionary model of upward progression from less information. The Bible model starts from perfect genes and then the effects of sin cause random mutations to slowly corrupt the gene pool. So, now it would be very difficult to find two of a species that could produce enough genetically diverse offspring in order to have a long-lasting and healty set of descendants. John John
The reason mutations are "bad" is not because them merely make a change, but because they result in a loss of genetic information. Since genes are an informational structure, it works the same was as words in these posts. If I were to type, "Chris Maunder is an intrysting guy." You would know right away that the "mutated" word was wrong and needed to be fixed. Sorry - I don't agree. The simple case is that we start with a typical human today. Let's say they have an offspring with slightly stronger knees, or the ability to run a little faster than average. This is a mutation, and an improvement. Regardless of whether or not we were perfect, we certainly no longer are, so there is a lot of room for good mutations to pop up. So anyway - describe this original 'perfect human'. Was he black, white, asian, tall... cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)