Programmers and Atheists
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Hmmm But try to imagine this. On one side we have knowledge - as in the theory of relativty, quantum mechanics........ It's really unconceivable that a person who is studying quarks and hadrons will also be preapared to believe that a god or gods exist. I mean everything else old timers thought, they thought wrong - inclusing the flatness of the earth, and earth being the center of the univers...How can we then believe their concepts about god? Its too far-fetched to think that they got everything wrong but got it right regarding god. The more you understand the universe, the more you understand life; god becomes a dream that was just that - a dream that arose in barbaric man's attempt to solve the unknown..... Nish
And I find the opposite true. I find it unimaginable that someone who is studying Quarks, etc does not believe in GOD. Sorry but I lost the reference so these numbers are made up but they are in the general range. Taken from a probabilistic analysis the random chance that our environment would be in the correct balance to have life created or continue to exist was something like 1 in 10^23^300^50th. IE very unlikely and more likely to not be random but controlled. However my main belief that there is a GOD (ignoring if my choice of which GOD) is what is the impact if there is not. Search the web for Pascal’s Wager. From the Christian perspective it seam logical that this should make the choice to believe in GOD obvious, however you can find this argument is easily refuted in that the assumption that you have not lost anything in believing in GOD if he does not exist is contradicted by the statement (found many time in my searching) that an atheist would have spent less time doing good work for the world while praying to GOD. This is what I find frightening. If there is not an ultimate definition of good from GOD than good is defined by the man doing the work. Or to rephrase this, the men who flew the airplanes into the WTC are as correct in saying the act was good and my statement that it was evil. There is no ultimate authority to select who was right. So I choose to believe. And in no way do I intend to state the act was good due to his apparent religions teachings! I have many good freinds who are Moslem and they equaly agree the act was evil.
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Well, I don't see how a good could make people with 4 toes instead of 5, so there must not be a god. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Short, sharp, and irrelevant. You've totally missed the point. The issue is not whether we can, or should understand god and his intentions (why do we have 4 toes or 5, or 6). What is at stake here is the nature of god, which we are told is clearly defined and understood in the bible - after all, that is one of the main purposes of the book. However, the god decribed there simply cannot exist in any logical sense. Therefore god is either not accurately described by the bible, or he's not logical. Either way, he's not what the bible says he is. Personally, I choose to think that means he's not there at all. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Hi Mike, I have never come close to experiencing such a tragedy as you describe, I can't even come close to really understanding how you feel. Why God allows suffering in the world is a difficult question that many people have, you are not alone. I will try to present the Christian answer to this question, but please understand that I do not have your experience which makes this easier to say than actually comprehend. The Christian answer to this goes back to the beginning when Adam and Eve first sinned. Before they ate from the forbidden fruit, there was no sin and therefore no pain or suffering. It was not possible for any man to die or be hurt. Once man rebelled against God, sin entered the picture allowing suffering and death. It was man who rebelled against God and therefore allowed suffering and death into the world. Unfortunately all of man is in the same situation due to the actions of our ancestors (Adam and Eve) - we are all born into sin. This means we will all eventually die and some of us will experience extrordinary pain and suffering. This was not God's plan, it was mans rebellion that caused this. Although God has the power to intervene and prevent pain and suffering, it is done at his discretion. This supernatural intervention is not common however, man in general lives its entire life in pain and suffering. The solution to this pain and suffering is the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. God never intended for your best friend, his sister or you to experience this tragedy. He could have prevented it, but he didn't because free will results in both good and bad things and we (Adam and Eve) rebelled allowing the bad things to enter our life. It is easier to blame he who could have prevented the tragedy (God) than man, but it really is man who is to blame. Chris Hafey
Pure nonsense. No 'good' god can possibly punish future, unborn generations for the sins and choices of the current generation. To do so violates several basic principles of morality, and forces the conclusion that god either doesn't care, is unable to help, or is not who you think he is. Take your choice, but you lose no matter which road you take. You're running the "Free Will" defense, and it works only if you aren't prepared to think things through. I suggest you investigate the theological discussions surrounding the topic of "theodicy" before you offer such simplistic and illogical arguments. Perhaps if more christians truly understood the nature of the contradictions that the bible brings forth we'd have fewer christians!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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Pure nonsense. No 'good' god can possibly punish future, unborn generations for the sins and choices of the current generation. To do so violates several basic principles of morality, and forces the conclusion that god either doesn't care, is unable to help, or is not who you think he is. Take your choice, but you lose no matter which road you take. You're running the "Free Will" defense, and it works only if you aren't prepared to think things through. I suggest you investigate the theological discussions surrounding the topic of "theodicy" before you offer such simplistic and illogical arguments. Perhaps if more christians truly understood the nature of the contradictions that the bible brings forth we'd have fewer christians!! ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
If there is a God that is powerful enough to create and destroy the universe, how can you possibly reason that you are in a position to judge him? You are paid to write software which is complex, yet how does that compare to miracle of life? It doesn't even come close, yet you have the gall to judge God! Talk about nonsense! You claim that God doesn't care, how can you say this when he sent his own son to die for the sins of the world! Would you spare your child's life for anyone? How about for billions of people that constantly disobey you? Not only does he care but he has made unnecessary sacrafices so that we can be reconcicled to him. You claim that God is unable to help, yet miracles still happen every day. I have personally witnessed many miracles, a few great ones and many smaller ones. It is God's discretion when and where he intervenes, you may not like his choices, but that certainly does not mean he is unable to help. You claim that he is not who I think he is, yet my answer is consistent with the doctrine of the largest religion on earth. Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus, I have this relationship and my experience is that Jesus is consistent and unchanging. You claim that I am not prepared to think things through, yet you don't even know me. Those who do know me would say that I have an open mind and that I have changed my thinking several times throughout my life. I want to know the truth, without it my life has no meaning or purpose. I am not a biblical scholar, I have so much to learn (about Christianity as well as other religions!). I must confess that I am not familiar with the topic of "theodicy". I will research it though, thank you for pointing it out. I am going to conclude this discussion by saying that my wife and I will be praying for you and your family. Your posts are full of anger and disrespect and it would be suprising if these do not effect your relationships with your family and friends. Chris Hafey
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If there is a God that is powerful enough to create and destroy the universe, how can you possibly reason that you are in a position to judge him? You are paid to write software which is complex, yet how does that compare to miracle of life? It doesn't even come close, yet you have the gall to judge God! Talk about nonsense! You claim that God doesn't care, how can you say this when he sent his own son to die for the sins of the world! Would you spare your child's life for anyone? How about for billions of people that constantly disobey you? Not only does he care but he has made unnecessary sacrafices so that we can be reconcicled to him. You claim that God is unable to help, yet miracles still happen every day. I have personally witnessed many miracles, a few great ones and many smaller ones. It is God's discretion when and where he intervenes, you may not like his choices, but that certainly does not mean he is unable to help. You claim that he is not who I think he is, yet my answer is consistent with the doctrine of the largest religion on earth. Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus, I have this relationship and my experience is that Jesus is consistent and unchanging. You claim that I am not prepared to think things through, yet you don't even know me. Those who do know me would say that I have an open mind and that I have changed my thinking several times throughout my life. I want to know the truth, without it my life has no meaning or purpose. I am not a biblical scholar, I have so much to learn (about Christianity as well as other religions!). I must confess that I am not familiar with the topic of "theodicy". I will research it though, thank you for pointing it out. I am going to conclude this discussion by saying that my wife and I will be praying for you and your family. Your posts are full of anger and disrespect and it would be suprising if these do not effect your relationships with your family and friends. Chris Hafey
Chris, Unfortunately, like so many Christians, and in particular catholics, you do not even understand your own religion. I do not judge god - I judge the quality of the bible, and question it's internal contradictions. From this, I conclude there is no god. How could I dare do this ? Because the bible is supposedly god's word to me - I am supposed to use it as the doorway that leads to god. Therefore I MUST judge the quality of this work! The Catholic Church's offical position on the issue of 'Theodicy' is that it is a "mystery". In other words, the explanation you offered in your original post is WRONG. Suffering, sin, redemption, etc are not clearly spelled out by the church and it's teachings - rather, at the most basic level, the Churches' leading theologians admit they can't resolve the contradictions inherent in the bible's teachings. This is okay for them (and possibly you) - they just decide to live with it. Fine, if that's what you want to do, then live with it - but at least understand what you are living with. My 'anger and disrepect' is/was based on the largely incorrect explanation you offered. I stand by this, and offer the Catholic church as support for my position. I draw a different conclusion from the church, but we both at least understand the problem and it's nature - your posts indicate you do not even understand perhaps the single greatest issue in the theological underpinnings of Christianity. As you say, I am not familiar with the topic of "theodicy". Don't feel too bad - most christians aren't! This is yet another reason for my rejection of the christian faiths - the elite at the head of the church seem either unable or unwilling to explain to the masses just what it all REALLY means. Spare me your prayers - they mean nothing to me, and will have no effect on or for me. And I am happy to be judged by my friends and family for what and who I am. Strangely enough, I consider my family and friends to be a collection of compassionate, intelligent, caring people - and not one of them is Jewish, Christian or Islamic. Just another little thing that makes me feel the link between religion and compassion/caring is highly overrated. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
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In a million years 1 + 1 may also be found to not equal 2 but something else. Already been done! Special relativity does just this. ;P
lol well there you go, did not even take a million years :) So you care to explain how 1 + 1 does not equal 2? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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You fail two tests in your responses. First, what chance does a 3 month baby have to choose to repent or not before they are killed by a falling tree? Basic christian concepts of 'free will', 'choice' and 'sin' have some resonance for adults, but fail badly when applied to children. This is not surprising however, when you view the context in which the bible evolved - children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention (other than to kill them at regular intervals - does no one else thing it's a little strange that god killed the egyptian children for Pharoah's sins, rather than just breaking Pharoahs legs??) Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. ----------------------- Reg : "Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."
Did I pass any tests? ;) I never said a 3 month old baby necessarily had a chance to repent, and I did say that true justice would have prevented _any_ of us from being born in the first place. Did you miss that part? The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage, not the other way around. children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use says a lot of things about children which directly contradict what you said. The book of Proverbs has several good comments, in fact the first several chapter were the sayings of a father who was speaking to his son out of love in order to prepare him to make good choices. Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. There is such evidence. You simply choose to ignore it or discount it before giving it a chance to be explained. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. Once again, you're arguing from a incredibly incomplete understanding of what the Bible says. No one who has understood the Bible could think that there is even a possibility for God to be more complex than the Bible teaches. Here's are some references: Isaish 55:8,9; The entire book of Job (particularly the last few chapters); 1 Corinthians 2:9-14; and many others. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. Sigh. You don't understand even the most basic aspects of the Bible. The whole point of the Bible is to reveal to us the things your complaining about not being told to us! It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer, but it appea
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Did I pass any tests? ;) I never said a 3 month old baby necessarily had a chance to repent, and I did say that true justice would have prevented _any_ of us from being born in the first place. Did you miss that part? The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage, not the other way around. children were certainly little more than 'possesions' in biblical times, and therefore it's easy to see how the writers of the bible paid them little attention Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use says a lot of things about children which directly contradict what you said. The book of Proverbs has several good comments, in fact the first several chapter were the sayings of a father who was speaking to his son out of love in order to prepare him to make good choices. Second, you assume that 'evil' (pain, death, etc) is a result of, or punishment for, sin. However, there is no evidence that all 'evil' in the world can be linked to 'sin' - and there is certainly a very poor case that it has a direct cause and effect relationship. There is such evidence. You simply choose to ignore it or discount it before giving it a chance to be explained. Theodicy remains a problem that christianity has not, and probably never will, resolve. Accept the "mystery" of it all if you wish, but for many it provides ample proof that the simplistic solutions offered by the bible are in fact invalid - either god is real, but much more complex that the bible suggests, or god doesn't exist. Either way, the bible is invalidated. Once again, you're arguing from a incredibly incomplete understanding of what the Bible says. No one who has understood the Bible could think that there is even a possibility for God to be more complex than the Bible teaches. Here's are some references: Isaish 55:8,9; The entire book of Job (particularly the last few chapters); 1 Corinthians 2:9-14; and many others. And a last note - I reject the "we cannot hope to understand god" line of argument - surely, that is precisely what the bible is intended to offer us. The word of the lord, letting us know how and why. So why is it that when all is said and done, we are left with "it's a mystery" when dealing with the most fundamental issues in our lives - why we suffer. Sigh. You don't understand even the most basic aspects of the Bible. The whole point of the Bible is to reveal to us the things your complaining about not being told to us! It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer, but it appea
John, The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage Perhaps we are simply doomed to misunderstand each other. I read the above sentence and have no idea what you can mean. My point was about a human being of 3 months age. Where is their free will, their choice, their opportunity to accept or reject god? Seems to me they had none. Does this mean they were not really a human? Does this mean some 'people' are here just to make up numbers? Am I correct in stating that you believe in a god that has created a world in which a human can be born, suffer in extreme pain for their entire (short) life, then die - without ever having any comprehension of why, or any opportunity to "make amends" for any possible "sin" they carry? This is possible because 6000 years ago a woman took a bite from an apple when she was told not to? You then call this god a merciful, loving god? We obviously have very diffrent views on 'mercy' and 'love'. Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use... This is a topic in itself. Which bible do you use? The most commonly used is the KJV - is that your reference? "Christians", unlike Muslims, do not use a single text as their holy book - there are literally hundreds of versions of the bible available, with variations ranging from minor to major. You need to have this particular conversation with Christian Graus - I am sure you and he will both use the label 'christian', and I'm just as sure you will not be using the same bible. Does it really matter? Of course - if you wish to use a verse to support a position you are making, we at least need to agree on the wording of the verse! Just take the debate on the the Flood as an example - you and Christian both put different meanings on the world 'earth', based upon the meaning of other words in the relevant verses which differ. But I'm sure you are convinced that you use the 'correct' bible, and Christain (unfortunately for him) does not. There is such evidence. I'd like to see the evidence that says that earthquakes are the result of sin. I really would. I don't believe I 'choose to ignore it or discount it' - whenever I look, the evidence is either not there, or easily discounted. It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer,... Then may I suggest that you pass this information on the Papacy, which openly admits that the issue is "a mystery". You do NOT understand the issue of "theodicy", or you would not be saying this. Or perhaps you are just a lot smarter t
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John, The point is that God is being "unfair" to our advantage Perhaps we are simply doomed to misunderstand each other. I read the above sentence and have no idea what you can mean. My point was about a human being of 3 months age. Where is their free will, their choice, their opportunity to accept or reject god? Seems to me they had none. Does this mean they were not really a human? Does this mean some 'people' are here just to make up numbers? Am I correct in stating that you believe in a god that has created a world in which a human can be born, suffer in extreme pain for their entire (short) life, then die - without ever having any comprehension of why, or any opportunity to "make amends" for any possible "sin" they carry? This is possible because 6000 years ago a woman took a bite from an apple when she was told not to? You then call this god a merciful, loving god? We obviously have very diffrent views on 'mercy' and 'love'. Which "bible" are you reading? The one Christians use... This is a topic in itself. Which bible do you use? The most commonly used is the KJV - is that your reference? "Christians", unlike Muslims, do not use a single text as their holy book - there are literally hundreds of versions of the bible available, with variations ranging from minor to major. You need to have this particular conversation with Christian Graus - I am sure you and he will both use the label 'christian', and I'm just as sure you will not be using the same bible. Does it really matter? Of course - if you wish to use a verse to support a position you are making, we at least need to agree on the wording of the verse! Just take the debate on the the Flood as an example - you and Christian both put different meanings on the world 'earth', based upon the meaning of other words in the relevant verses which differ. But I'm sure you are convinced that you use the 'correct' bible, and Christain (unfortunately for him) does not. There is such evidence. I'd like to see the evidence that says that earthquakes are the result of sin. I really would. I don't believe I 'choose to ignore it or discount it' - whenever I look, the evidence is either not there, or easily discounted. It's not a "mystery". I know why we suffer,... Then may I suggest that you pass this information on the Papacy, which openly admits that the issue is "a mystery". You do NOT understand the issue of "theodicy", or you would not be saying this. Or perhaps you are just a lot smarter t
Just curious -- Are you getting email notifications of my responses, because I'm not getting any right now. Chris knows this and is probably working on it, but I know how debugging goes and he says that most people's notifications are working fine... BTW, I have an apology to make. At first, I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the names of the people responding to my posts, and ended up mixing your posts, Mike Butler's, and Michael Martin's posts together in my mind. (Same first names.) As a result, I wasn't all that sure that you were interested in holding an honest debate. Sorry about that. I know better now. In light of those things, should we move this discussion to email rather than the forums? (Besides, I don't think I should keep putting up long posts from work. Short ones are fine, but that's not where we appear to be headed.) ---- I know that you'll probably have a slightly harder time understanding me than I am likely to understand you, simply because we all get fed the evolutionist ideas rather consistently through popular media of all types. However, we don't all get taught any particular creationist/Bible viewpoint, so I would assume that thought the misunderstanding goes both ways, it's probably a little harder for you. I will try hard not to skip over supporting ideas, and will repeat those that may need it. So, with reference to the problem of pain (which brings to mind a book by C.S. Lewis that I don't remember much about for what that's worth) -- I don't mean to indicate that I've got all the problems solved, but I do mean to say that the Bible teaches certain things that do provide the basic answers. Which brings us to your question about the Bible... (I'll bring this up a little later on.) I grew up memorizing passages from the KJV, so that's what I tend to use the most (familiarity). However, I see that it has a lot of translation issues. (We can get into them if you really want, but like Christian says, for the most part they all agree.) Officially, I rely on the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts, which is technically impossible since they no longer exist. However, the vast number of copies and the large degree of consistency between them allows us to determine quite accurately what the originals said. When minor conflicts arise, textual or "lower" criticism is used to figure out what the originals most likely said, based on the evidences in the existing copies. (One cool thing that I've noticed is that occasionally, the best guess is only
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lol well there you go, did not even take a million years :) So you care to explain how 1 + 1 does not equal 2? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
So you care to explain how 1 + 1 does not equal 2? 1 times the speed of light + 1 times the speed of light = 1 times the speed of light. However i'd bet that within a million years we'll have changed our minds about this one too!