Oh My Poor Students!
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We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? As a student, I can safely say that what you can do is: Nothing. It's up to them to be motivated. And if they aren't motivated to succeed, nothing you can do is going to give them that motivation. What you should do is not care. Or be very generous on partial credit. I suppose it's different from a teacher's perspective...but this is how I see it from the student's perspective. There's about 5 people in each class that actually care. Half the rest of them just want to pass, and the other half are more interested in making college a continuation of high school (if ya know what I mean).
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Roger Wright wrote: What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? As a student, I can safely say that what you can do is: Nothing. It's up to them to be motivated. And if they aren't motivated to succeed, nothing you can do is going to give them that motivation. What you should do is not care. Or be very generous on partial credit. I suppose it's different from a teacher's perspective...but this is how I see it from the student's perspective. There's about 5 people in each class that actually care. Half the rest of them just want to pass, and the other half are more interested in making college a continuation of high school (if ya know what I mean).
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: if ya know what I mean :sigh: Yeah, I do. On the partial credit I think I've been more than generous. If they will show me their work, if I can spot that they have started out right but fouled up part way through, I give them half credit. If they fill out a table, like a depreciation schedule, which has answers that depend on previous answers being correct, I give 1/2 credit for wrong answers that were based on a previous wrong answer (yes, I do take the time to do the calculations). No teacher of mine was ever that kind - perhaps that's what I've done wrong.:doh: "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."I have to agree with David on this one, particularly as it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). It seems as if you've bent over backwards to accomodate them. So I think you can fail them with a clear conscience where they deserve to fail. Passing them despite themselves would be doing no one a favour; neither themselves, yourself, their future lecturers or their future employers. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Don't take it personally, Roger. I don't have any first hand experience here, but I suspect your experience and reaction are pretty common. This is probably going to sound like classic oldster griping about the declining state of the country, but I've taken college courses in the last 5 years or so, and so have bit of experience, anyway, in school recently. The quality of public education in this country sucks compared to 30, 40 years ago. Colleges have become remedial education programs trying to teach the basic skills once taught in high school or below. The vast number of colleges, online universities, etc, has reduced the significance of holding a degree to nearly nothing. I worked with one MsEE 8 years or so ago who knew less about electronics theory than I did in junior high school. (But she was a cute little babe, and no-one probably ever thought of flunking her.) I'd say flunk 'em. It's probably the best thing you can do for them. Only knowing you in a superficial sense through CP, I can't say with any degree of certainty, but to me you sound like a decent guy. If you say you've made it as simple as falling down, I believe you. If you have the integrity I think you do, your conscience will bitch at you if you rubber-stamp them. Your conscience will probably bitch anyway if you flunk them, but sometimes life's not easy and you have to stand up for what you think is right. Right? :)
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David Stone wrote: if ya know what I mean :sigh: Yeah, I do. On the partial credit I think I've been more than generous. If they will show me their work, if I can spot that they have started out right but fouled up part way through, I give them half credit. If they fill out a table, like a depreciation schedule, which has answers that depend on previous answers being correct, I give 1/2 credit for wrong answers that were based on a previous wrong answer (yes, I do take the time to do the calculations). No teacher of mine was ever that kind - perhaps that's what I've done wrong.:doh: "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: perhaps that's what I've done wrong. Probably. I think the retest was also a mistake. How often do you really get second chances in life? If you're teaching a sufficiently low level of math, it means you're getting the kids right out of high school. Most of them haven't, or don't want to, grow up. That's the problem right there. They don't get it. They actually have to work at this...it's not going to be handed to them on a silver platter. My physics professor likes to tell a story about how there was this one kid in his first semester calculus-based physics class (Mechanics and Thermodynamics). Well, this kid showed up for every class, but flunked his tests. My professor tried to warn him that he was going to fail the class and that he should probably drop. But he persisted and earned an F in the class. When he approached the prof. the next semester he was puzzled as to why he got an F instead of a C. He thought that just by showing up every day he could pass the class...it was his first semester in college. I think that what's happening is that they don't, or can't due to lack of maturity, grasp the reality of the situation. And this is coming from a 16 year old. ;)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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I have to agree with David on this one, particularly as it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). It seems as if you've bent over backwards to accomodate them. So I think you can fail them with a clear conscience where they deserve to fail. Passing them despite themselves would be doing no one a favour; neither themselves, yourself, their future lecturers or their future employers. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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David Stone wrote: if ya know what I mean :sigh: Yeah, I do. On the partial credit I think I've been more than generous. If they will show me their work, if I can spot that they have started out right but fouled up part way through, I give them half credit. If they fill out a table, like a depreciation schedule, which has answers that depend on previous answers being correct, I give 1/2 credit for wrong answers that were based on a previous wrong answer (yes, I do take the time to do the calculations). No teacher of mine was ever that kind - perhaps that's what I've done wrong.:doh: "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: On the partial credit I think I've been more than generous...No teacher of mine was ever that kind - perhaps that's what I've done wrong. It's alright to do that, as long as the students you're doing it for are actually motivated and are bothering to pay attention and do a good job.* If not, then yes, you're actually doing them a dis-favor, because low grades help them try harder so that they learn it. I have seen evidence that in a conventional school setting, motivating the students is a big challenge to the teachers. Do your best to motivate your students and make them enthusiastic about the subject they're studying - it makes a big difference. ;) *That way, you distinguish the ones who are actually trying but are struggling from those who simply don't care.
**"Worry not that no one knows of you; seek to be worth knowing." -- Confucius
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Don't take it personally, Roger. I don't have any first hand experience here, but I suspect your experience and reaction are pretty common. This is probably going to sound like classic oldster griping about the declining state of the country, but I've taken college courses in the last 5 years or so, and so have bit of experience, anyway, in school recently. The quality of public education in this country sucks compared to 30, 40 years ago. Colleges have become remedial education programs trying to teach the basic skills once taught in high school or below. The vast number of colleges, online universities, etc, has reduced the significance of holding a degree to nearly nothing. I worked with one MsEE 8 years or so ago who knew less about electronics theory than I did in junior high school. (But she was a cute little babe, and no-one probably ever thought of flunking her.) I'd say flunk 'em. It's probably the best thing you can do for them. Only knowing you in a superficial sense through CP, I can't say with any degree of certainty, but to me you sound like a decent guy. If you say you've made it as simple as falling down, I believe you. If you have the integrity I think you do, your conscience will bitch at you if you rubber-stamp them. Your conscience will probably bitch anyway if you flunk them, but sometimes life's not easy and you have to stand up for what you think is right. Right? :)
LunaticFringe wrote: Colleges have become remedial education programs trying to teach the basic skills once taught in high school or below. I see examples of this every day in my 2nd semester physics and 3rd semester calculus classes. I often wonder how these people have passed their previous classes without a clear understanding of the math. They ask questions about basic algebra more than the calculus we are going over or using...and I have to sit through it to get to the lecture from the professors. :sigh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Roger Wright wrote: perhaps that's what I've done wrong. Probably. I think the retest was also a mistake. How often do you really get second chances in life? If you're teaching a sufficiently low level of math, it means you're getting the kids right out of high school. Most of them haven't, or don't want to, grow up. That's the problem right there. They don't get it. They actually have to work at this...it's not going to be handed to them on a silver platter. My physics professor likes to tell a story about how there was this one kid in his first semester calculus-based physics class (Mechanics and Thermodynamics). Well, this kid showed up for every class, but flunked his tests. My professor tried to warn him that he was going to fail the class and that he should probably drop. But he persisted and earned an F in the class. When he approached the prof. the next semester he was puzzled as to why he got an F instead of a C. He thought that just by showing up every day he could pass the class...it was his first semester in college. I think that what's happening is that they don't, or can't due to lack of maturity, grasp the reality of the situation. And this is coming from a 16 year old. ;)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
You're a very wise man for having only 16 years under your belt!:-D My students are all working adults, trying to make a better life for themselves - they should be better motivated... Heck, one of them is my age (and looks a lot worse:-)) "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
I have to agree with David on this one, particularly as it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). It seems as if you've bent over backwards to accomodate them. So I think you can fail them with a clear conscience where they deserve to fail. Passing them despite themselves would be doing no one a favour; neither themselves, yourself, their future lecturers or their future employers. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Roger Wright wrote: perhaps that's what I've done wrong. Probably. I think the retest was also a mistake. How often do you really get second chances in life? If you're teaching a sufficiently low level of math, it means you're getting the kids right out of high school. Most of them haven't, or don't want to, grow up. That's the problem right there. They don't get it. They actually have to work at this...it's not going to be handed to them on a silver platter. My physics professor likes to tell a story about how there was this one kid in his first semester calculus-based physics class (Mechanics and Thermodynamics). Well, this kid showed up for every class, but flunked his tests. My professor tried to warn him that he was going to fail the class and that he should probably drop. But he persisted and earned an F in the class. When he approached the prof. the next semester he was puzzled as to why he got an F instead of a C. He thought that just by showing up every day he could pass the class...it was his first semester in college. I think that what's happening is that they don't, or can't due to lack of maturity, grasp the reality of the situation. And this is coming from a 16 year old. ;)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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You're a very wise man for having only 16 years under your belt!:-D My students are all working adults, trying to make a better life for themselves - they should be better motivated... Heck, one of them is my age (and looks a lot worse:-)) "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: You're a very wise man for having only 16 years under your belt! Now if I could just get this driving thing down... ;) Actually I owe most of this wisdom to about 3 people: my parents and my karate instructor. Roger Wright wrote: My students are all working adults, trying to make a better life for themselves I'm trying to avoid having to do that. :)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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David Stone wrote: And this is coming from a 16 year old. :omg::wtf: You're physics prof is only 16!? Just kidding.... :laugh::laugh::laugh: nyuk nyuk nyuk...
LunaticFringe wrote: You're physics prof is only 16!? :rolleyes: *Groan* No...but he nearly had a heart-attack when he found out. :)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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I have to agree with David on this one, particularly as it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). It seems as if you've bent over backwards to accomodate them. So I think you can fail them with a clear conscience where they deserve to fail. Passing them despite themselves would be doing no one a favour; neither themselves, yourself, their future lecturers or their future employers. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
Well, only one is actually failing, and that's only because she live 6 miles away and has no way to get to class but walking - she's missed more classes than she's attended. I hate to fail them, since their homework clearly shows that they can do the math. But I also hate to send them out into the world thinking that they can skate by without applying themselves to the task at hand. That would be a violation of trust with those who may eventually hire them based on the classes they took in college. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
Exactly.
**"Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good." -- Romans 12:21
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David Stone wrote: They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? Mommy and Daddy are probably paying for it.
LunaticFringe wrote: Mommy and Daddy are probably paying for it. Ahh...that's right...so are mine. :)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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LunaticFringe wrote: Mommy and Daddy are probably paying for it. Ahh...that's right...so are mine. :)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Roger Wright wrote: You're a very wise man for having only 16 years under your belt! Now if I could just get this driving thing down... ;) Actually I owe most of this wisdom to about 3 people: my parents and my karate instructor. Roger Wright wrote: My students are all working adults, trying to make a better life for themselves I'm trying to avoid having to do that. :)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: Now if I could just get this driving thing down... If you can master parallel parking, you can do anything. Like Math, it's practice, practice, practice. I failed my first driving test, but got the license because the examiner couldn't add. How ironic is that?:laugh: David Stone wrote: I'm trying to avoid having to do that. At your age that's exactly what you should be doing. It won't work, but the earlier you learn how to deal with failure, the better. The only difference between those who succeed and those who fail is that those who succeed get up and try again when they fail. The ones who lie down and accept failure are the ones who fail, and they make a lifestyle of it. Don't go there - it's really ugly. Robert Heilbruner (one of my favorite authors) once said that it's most important for a young man to be fired. That teaches him that he can get another job, that he's not a failure, and that he needn't live in fear of a boss. I'm paraphrasing a lot, because it's been a lot of years since I read his books, but that's the gist of it. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."