War Is Naughty
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Is it just me, or does anyone else find the idea of discussing the "legality" of something like war utterly laughable? Legislating something as primal to human instinct as war is a lesson in futility. Who decides when war is legal? Do tribal leaders who have decimated opposing tribes for millenia have a say? Or do we restrict the right to say when war is justified to the millieu of the "civilized" nations of the world? Define "Civilized". How do we reach a consensus of the legality of war? Does it cover situations where the livelihood of a state's inhabitants are threatened? If so, it is relatively simple to create a situation where the appearance of that exact situation is present. I hate to say it, but we will never achieve a "warless" society. Simply put, we are too damned good at it as a species (we've had a lot of practice), and it is, in my opinion, a mere extension of the competitive nature that brought us here in the first place. Civilization as a whole is just another exercise in grand-scale evolution. Unfortunately, those civilizations who tend to be very good at stomping on other civilizations tend to continue onward. Hell, look at the Roman Empire, and you can see, even though the core Empire collapsed, elements of that ideology remain in current (for example)US governmental practices. Looking back across history, you can see how civilization cycles effortlessly through differing dominant forms of government: Democracy, Socialism, Fascism, etc., are all ideals that have had their time of dominance and recede only to rise again "next cycle". And all of these forms of government have inherent clauses within the contexts of their definitions that war is, at some times, vital for the survival of said society. And therein lies the crux of the problem. Since history is written by the victors, any victor can, with enough effort and craftiness, convince the remainder of the world that they were justified in waging their "legal" war against their neighbor. Since I've deviated a bit from the original post, I'll cut this off...although I'm feeling inclined to write up an essay outlining why war, in general, is a good thing... Jeremy Kimball
5 I'm just waiting for the Dark Age to come. Remember, it's in the cycle too. Later, JoeSox One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with wooden stakes. --Jack Handy Deep Thoughts www.joeswammi.com ↔ www.humanaiproject.org
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Jeremy Kimball wrote: Since I've deviated a bit from the original post, I'll cut this off...although I'm feeling inclined to write up an essay outlining why war, in general, is a good thing... That's very easy to do when you're backed with the world's most powerful army.. :rolleyes: -- Must I be the meat in an imbecill sandwich?
Iraq blah blah blah.... Is anyone else tired of hearing this same old argument over and over? It is like a fad to "be against" or "be for" the war. Can't wait till this hip cause passes and we can talk about something else. I feel I am not the only one who is as fatigued by it?
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Iraq blah blah blah.... Is anyone else tired of hearing this same old argument over and over? It is like a fad to "be against" or "be for" the war. Can't wait till this hip cause passes and we can talk about something else. I feel I am not the only one who is as fatigued by it?
Ah, but you see, we have deviated somewhat from the original argument. What I am challenging are our current world's view on the practice of nation on nation agression in general. The backdrop of the current Iraqi situation merely provides a backdrop for comparison. The heart of the matter has been an issue since the beginning of time. Jeremy Kimball
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Jeremy Kimball wrote: Who decides when war is legal? It used to bt the UN - but they have abrogated their relevance by allowing nations like France to prevent justifiable military action. Jeremy Kimball wrote: Define "Civilized". A culture is said to be civilized when it has progressed beyond the city-state/warlord model and spawns art, literature and science which are employed at the nation level. Other characteristics of civilized societies include monetary systems and a specialization of livlihoods. Warfare does not determine whether a society is civilized or not. Jeremy Kimball wrote: Since history is written by the victors, any victor can, with enough effort and craftiness, convince the remainder of the world that they were justified in waging their "legal" war against their neighbor. You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? But you are right - the USA would have to be pretty stupid to allow a bunch of dickweeds at the UN to stop her from fighting terrorists and despotic maniacs and liberating millions of oppressed victims.
Terry O`Nolley wrote: but they have abrogated their relevance by allowing nations like France to prevent justifiable military action. While I am no fan of the Frogs, the fact that they are a member of the UN (and a Security Council member) is justification enough. Regardless of the reasons for allowing France a seat on the Council, they occupy that seat. We have to heed their words. Terry O`Nolley wrote: Warfare does not determine whether a society is civilized or not. Yes, but look at every major civilization in history, and you will see the reason why they became civilized is because of a hefty amount of bloodshed. Egyptian, Greek, Roman, English, ad infinitum. Terry O`Nolley wrote: You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? Yes I do. The media is far from incorruptible or impartial. Observe the take on the exact same event as reported by American, Russian, Chinese, and Arabic news sources. Simply because there are alternatives does not neccesarily dictate that every individual (or nations) will listen to them if they are in conflict with a more "local" point of view. Jeremy Kimball
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Yet, how many "wars" have there been worldwide (worldwide as a scope not "world wars") since 1945. Dozens? Maybe even a hundred? Face it, mankind is cruel and illogical. All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Exactly. It does not appear that the Agreements have been very effective in halting the course of conflict - my original point.
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Jeremy Kimball wrote: Hauge(sorry if I misspelled that) Haag. :-D -- Must I be the meat in an imbecill sandwich?
Is that the "international" spelling? *shrug* Not sure myself, and I'm too lazy to look it up :) Jeremy
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Yeah - I think these legalities that apply to countries are a bit of a joke. What are they going to do? Apply sanctions to the United States ... or China. HA. They will only apply them to weak countries. So what we have is a system that basicly picks on the weakest countries sending the message: Might is Right. J. ----------------------------
Which emphasises my point that the current state of affairs is nothing more than a continuation of the alliance making that heralded the beginning of the First World War (and, by casuality - the Second World War, and again by casuality - the Cold War) Jeremy Kimball
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Is that the "international" spelling? *shrug* Not sure myself, and I'm too lazy to look it up :) Jeremy
Event better, it's the dutch! :-D -- Must I be the meat in an imbecill sandwich?
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Jeremy Kimball wrote: Since I've deviated a bit from the original post, I'll cut this off...although I'm feeling inclined to write up an essay outlining why war, in general, is a good thing... That's very easy to do when you're backed with the world's most powerful army.. :rolleyes: -- Must I be the meat in an imbecill sandwich?
lol! :laugh: Actually, I'm a military history and theory nut. I am a firm believer that Machiavelli and Clausewitz were correct in saying that Diplomacy and Warfare are intrinsically linked. Although I do have to subtract points from ol' Nicolo, as he basically wrote The Prince to kiss the Borgia's collective asses... Jeremy Kimball
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5 I'm just waiting for the Dark Age to come. Remember, it's in the cycle too. Later, JoeSox One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with wooden stakes. --Jack Handy Deep Thoughts www.joeswammi.com ↔ www.humanaiproject.org
A VERY good point, unfortunately....
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A VERY good point, unfortunately....
Jeremy Kimball wrote: A VERY good point, unfortunately.... I have done some research into the turning point for Rome and how it is just about that same point of no return, but it is not to late imo. Destroy the two-party despotism monopoly:cool: Later, JoeSox One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with wooden stakes. --Jack Handy Deep Thoughts www.joeswammi.com ↔ www.humanaiproject.org
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Is it just me, or does anyone else find the idea of discussing the "legality" of something like war utterly laughable? Legislating something as primal to human instinct as war is a lesson in futility. Who decides when war is legal? Do tribal leaders who have decimated opposing tribes for millenia have a say? Or do we restrict the right to say when war is justified to the millieu of the "civilized" nations of the world? Define "Civilized". How do we reach a consensus of the legality of war? Does it cover situations where the livelihood of a state's inhabitants are threatened? If so, it is relatively simple to create a situation where the appearance of that exact situation is present. I hate to say it, but we will never achieve a "warless" society. Simply put, we are too damned good at it as a species (we've had a lot of practice), and it is, in my opinion, a mere extension of the competitive nature that brought us here in the first place. Civilization as a whole is just another exercise in grand-scale evolution. Unfortunately, those civilizations who tend to be very good at stomping on other civilizations tend to continue onward. Hell, look at the Roman Empire, and you can see, even though the core Empire collapsed, elements of that ideology remain in current (for example)US governmental practices. Looking back across history, you can see how civilization cycles effortlessly through differing dominant forms of government: Democracy, Socialism, Fascism, etc., are all ideals that have had their time of dominance and recede only to rise again "next cycle". And all of these forms of government have inherent clauses within the contexts of their definitions that war is, at some times, vital for the survival of said society. And therein lies the crux of the problem. Since history is written by the victors, any victor can, with enough effort and craftiness, convince the remainder of the world that they were justified in waging their "legal" war against their neighbor. Since I've deviated a bit from the original post, I'll cut this off...although I'm feeling inclined to write up an essay outlining why war, in general, is a good thing... Jeremy Kimball
I globally agree with your post. However, can we say that some wars are "fairer" than others? Of course, we used our moral frame, local and temporal, to decide what "fair" means, but can't we agree on a middle term?
Silence Means Death Stand On Your Feet Inner Fear Your Worst Enemy
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Jeremy Kimball wrote: A VERY good point, unfortunately.... I have done some research into the turning point for Rome and how it is just about that same point of no return, but it is not to late imo. Destroy the two-party despotism monopoly:cool: Later, JoeSox One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with wooden stakes. --Jack Handy Deep Thoughts www.joeswammi.com ↔ www.humanaiproject.org
JoeSox wrote: research into the turning point for Rome I actually wrote a paper on that very topic...basically outlined how every major reason for the downfall of the Empire is currently occurring as we speak. Jeremy Kimball
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: you Terry O`Nolley wrote: you Terry O`Nolley wrote: you Terry O`Nolley wrote: you Terry O`Nolley wrote: you ummm. it's a fucking quote. my comment on the matter was "i don't know". ImgSource | CheeseWeasle
Chris Losinger wrote: ummm. it's a f***ing quote. my comment on the matter was "i don't know". So you randomly picked a quote that you didn't agree with just for the hell of it?!?!? I knew you didn't write that quote - but it came from your post and I was responding to my (apparently incorrect) assumption that you agreed with it. Do you have any opinion on the subject yet perchance? Or are you one of the clueless few that has no opinion on whether or not our invasion of Iraq was illegal under "international law"??? Have you ever expressed an opinion on this forum that might possibly lead one to believe that you agreed with the quote you posted?
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lol! :laugh: Actually, I'm a military history and theory nut. I am a firm believer that Machiavelli and Clausewitz were correct in saying that Diplomacy and Warfare are intrinsically linked. Although I do have to subtract points from ol' Nicolo, as he basically wrote The Prince to kiss the Borgia's collective asses... Jeremy Kimball
I agree with you that war may have been a good thing. Today it seems like a pointless act of aggression. Of course, one should fight back if attacked. But attacking? That's a fruitless project. Ask Saddam.. :) Every path to victory is beset with terrible losses. The trick is to chose the one way with least losses. -- Must I be the meat in an imbecill sandwich?
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I globally agree with your post. However, can we say that some wars are "fairer" than others? Of course, we used our moral frame, local and temporal, to decide what "fair" means, but can't we agree on a middle term?
Silence Means Death Stand On Your Feet Inner Fear Your Worst Enemy
KaЯl wrote: but can't we agree on a middle term? Nope, because then we wouldn't have this discussion to begin with.. :) -- Must I be the meat in an imbecill sandwich?
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I globally agree with your post. However, can we say that some wars are "fairer" than others? Of course, we used our moral frame, local and temporal, to decide what "fair" means, but can't we agree on a middle term?
Silence Means Death Stand On Your Feet Inner Fear Your Worst Enemy
Oh, absolutely, but again, define "fair". I'm not arguing whether War is moral or immoral, legal or illegal. Unlike many others, I see nothing in terms of black and white. We live in a world of greys. As I said earlier, I really don't have a definitive point, per se. I'm just trying to get people to think about it a bit differently :) Judging by the activity of this thread, maybe I've succeeded Jeremy Kimball
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: but they have abrogated their relevance by allowing nations like France to prevent justifiable military action. While I am no fan of the Frogs, the fact that they are a member of the UN (and a Security Council member) is justification enough. Regardless of the reasons for allowing France a seat on the Council, they occupy that seat. We have to heed their words. Terry O`Nolley wrote: Warfare does not determine whether a society is civilized or not. Yes, but look at every major civilization in history, and you will see the reason why they became civilized is because of a hefty amount of bloodshed. Egyptian, Greek, Roman, English, ad infinitum. Terry O`Nolley wrote: You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? Yes I do. The media is far from incorruptible or impartial. Observe the take on the exact same event as reported by American, Russian, Chinese, and Arabic news sources. Simply because there are alternatives does not neccesarily dictate that every individual (or nations) will listen to them if they are in conflict with a more "local" point of view. Jeremy Kimball
Terry O`Nolley wrote: You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? Jeremy Kimball wrote: Yes I do. The media is far from incorruptible or impartial. Observe the take on the exact same event as reported by American, Russian, Chinese, and Arabic news sources. Simply because there are alternatives does not neccesarily dictate that every individual (or nations) will listen to them if they are in conflict with a more "local" point of view. Or the way the U.S. Military is blatently attack Al Jazeera, or any disenting news medium. A guided missile hits Al Jazeera's office in bagdhad? Ok I understand the need for the fog of war - but that to me is clear signal that if the military does not like what you say and cannot muzzle you in any other way - they resort to extremely direct methods. J. ----------------------------
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: but they have abrogated their relevance by allowing nations like France to prevent justifiable military action. While I am no fan of the Frogs, the fact that they are a member of the UN (and a Security Council member) is justification enough. Regardless of the reasons for allowing France a seat on the Council, they occupy that seat. We have to heed their words. Terry O`Nolley wrote: Warfare does not determine whether a society is civilized or not. Yes, but look at every major civilization in history, and you will see the reason why they became civilized is because of a hefty amount of bloodshed. Egyptian, Greek, Roman, English, ad infinitum. Terry O`Nolley wrote: You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? Yes I do. The media is far from incorruptible or impartial. Observe the take on the exact same event as reported by American, Russian, Chinese, and Arabic news sources. Simply because there are alternatives does not neccesarily dictate that every individual (or nations) will listen to them if they are in conflict with a more "local" point of view. Jeremy Kimball
Jeremy Kimball wrote: Regardless of the reasons for allowing France a seat on the Council, they occupy that seat. We have to heed their words. OK. So if Al Queda nukes New York but France vetoes taking action against the nation that gave them the bomb then the USA must do nothing. Jeremy Kimball wrote: Yes, but look at every major civilization in history, and you will see the reason why they became civilized is because of a hefty amount of bloodshed. Egyptian, Greek, Roman, English, ad infinitum. Of course! I was merely defining civilized since you asked about it. Jeremy Kimball wrote: Terry O`Nolley wrote: You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? Yes I do. The media is far from incorruptible or impartial. Observe the take on the exact same event as reported by American, Russian, Chinese, and Arabic news sources. Simply because there are alternatives does not neccesarily dictate that every individual (or nations) will listen to them if they are in conflict with a more "local" point of view. I agree with your take on local media bias. But when it comes to "rewriting history", I don't think this is possible anymore. In the past, the media was tightly controlled - only trained scribes could even write - so the official givernment policy became historical fact. With the advent of the printing press, revisionism became more difficult. How could the government take back 10,000 copies of a historical book once it got out? Now with the internet, CDs, DVDs, online libraries, etc. it is impossible to suppress facts and thus it is impossible to rewrite history.
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Jeremy Kimball wrote: Who decides when war is legal? It used to bt the UN - but they have abrogated their relevance by allowing nations like France to prevent justifiable military action. Jeremy Kimball wrote: Define "Civilized". A culture is said to be civilized when it has progressed beyond the city-state/warlord model and spawns art, literature and science which are employed at the nation level. Other characteristics of civilized societies include monetary systems and a specialization of livlihoods. Warfare does not determine whether a society is civilized or not. Jeremy Kimball wrote: Since history is written by the victors, any victor can, with enough effort and craftiness, convince the remainder of the world that they were justified in waging their "legal" war against their neighbor. You actually think this is possible with the current state of the art in telecommunications/mass media/internet?!?!?!? But you are right - the USA would have to be pretty stupid to allow a bunch of dickweeds at the UN to stop her from fighting terrorists and despotic maniacs and liberating millions of oppressed victims.
Terry O`Nolley wrote: - but they have abrogated their relevance by allowing nations like France to prevent justifiable military action. Except UK and US, no one would have voted the resolution authorizing war. So I suppose that by France you mean the Rest of the World. That's flattering, but really unfair for all the other countries. Outside the US, we are not convinced at all the goal was to oust a dictator, but to seize an important strategical part of the World, ousting the dictator being a side effect. After all, there are many dictatorships around the world, some of them really connected to terrorism, making really WMD and exporting weapons all around the world, and that's the one (nonetheless an ugly, dirty one) who wasn't involved in all the activities mentioned above who was invaded. Terry O`Nolley wrote: A culture is said to be civilized when [...] whether a society is civilized or not All what you said is true but is related to a limit, a "civilization level", which is totally subjective and generally fixed to define two teams, "us" and "them". IMO you forgot the concept of Law, "civilized" countries would then be the ones guaranteeing some basic rights (always this limit) to their citizen. Welfare could also be a criterion, could a country letting one sixth of its population under the level of powerty be considered as civilized?
Silence Means Death Stand On Your Feet Inner Fear Your Worst Enemy