Religous signs
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
IMO, secularism doesn't mean stopping people from practising their religion. It just means that the government won't have anything to do with religion. If the state stops Muslim girls from wearing veils, will it also forbid nuns and priests from wearing their dresses? Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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IMO, secularism doesn't mean stopping people from practising their religion. It just means that the government won't have anything to do with religion. If the state stops Muslim girls from wearing veils, will it also forbid nuns and priests from wearing their dresses? Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
This interdiction would be applicable in public schools only, not elsewhere. Historically, secularism in public school is a big deal, and created a lot of fights and controversies at the beginning of last century (at this time the fight was between the Republic and the Catholic Church).
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
President Jacques Chirac has denounced Muslim headscarves on schoolgirls as offensive and expressed concern about Islamic fundamentalism as momentum builds up in France to bar all religious symbols from public schools. Speaking on a visit to Tunisia on Friday, Chirac said the strictly secular French state could not let pupils wear what he called "ostentatious signs of religious proselytism" and saw "something aggressive" in the wearing of traditional Muslim veils. <Nothing to do with my personal opinion on the topic> I can only imagine the world-wide uproar if GWB had made these statements!! The democrats would be screaming impeachment. </Nothing to do with my personal opinion on the topic> <My opinion> All public school kids should wear uniforms to school. No designer clothes. No gang colors or symbols. No religious symbols of any kind. </My opinion> All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
I used to feel strongly about it while I was living in France... that is I use to believe that no religious sign should be displayed at school. But now, after having lived in the UK for some time, where it is common to see people with turbans and scarves, I do not understand anymore why the state needs to dictate the way people dress up. French secular people seem to think that by removing religious signs from pupils, they actually free them from what they see as a repressive religion or culture. The debate is not about if a religion is oppressive or not. We have made some people come to our countries so they would be employed in factories, mines, etc... They come as they are, with their culture and their dress code. Their children's children probably will wear Jeans and T-Shirts. Integration cannot be forced upon them. And pupils will not study less if they wear a turban, a scarf or a cross. We have to understand that some cultures find naked arms indecent. Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches - they do not always complain loudly, mind you. People have a right to be different and religious. The separation between State and Church is a good thing. I would not want religion - any religion - to be taught at school. But I think the French got it wrong in making a big issue out of it.
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President Jacques Chirac has denounced Muslim headscarves on schoolgirls as offensive and expressed concern about Islamic fundamentalism as momentum builds up in France to bar all religious symbols from public schools. Speaking on a visit to Tunisia on Friday, Chirac said the strictly secular French state could not let pupils wear what he called "ostentatious signs of religious proselytism" and saw "something aggressive" in the wearing of traditional Muslim veils. <Nothing to do with my personal opinion on the topic> I can only imagine the world-wide uproar if GWB had made these statements!! The democrats would be screaming impeachment. </Nothing to do with my personal opinion on the topic> <My opinion> All public school kids should wear uniforms to school. No designer clothes. No gang colors or symbols. No religious symbols of any kind. </My opinion> All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Mike Mullikin wrote: The democrats would be screaming impeachment. This is a quiet non-partisan topic there. Mike Mullikin wrote: All public school kids should wear uniforms to school. It could be solution, but then the uniforms should be cheap enough, or be furnished by schools. However I believe that cumulated with the rebel spirit of teenagers, such an obligation would lead to a kind of Revolution.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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I used to feel strongly about it while I was living in France... that is I use to believe that no religious sign should be displayed at school. But now, after having lived in the UK for some time, where it is common to see people with turbans and scarves, I do not understand anymore why the state needs to dictate the way people dress up. French secular people seem to think that by removing religious signs from pupils, they actually free them from what they see as a repressive religion or culture. The debate is not about if a religion is oppressive or not. We have made some people come to our countries so they would be employed in factories, mines, etc... They come as they are, with their culture and their dress code. Their children's children probably will wear Jeans and T-Shirts. Integration cannot be forced upon them. And pupils will not study less if they wear a turban, a scarf or a cross. We have to understand that some cultures find naked arms indecent. Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches - they do not always complain loudly, mind you. People have a right to be different and religious. The separation between State and Church is a good thing. I would not want religion - any religion - to be taught at school. But I think the French got it wrong in making a big issue out of it.
BadJerry wrote: And pupils will not study less if they wear a turban, a scarf or a cross But this would create religious tensions in a sector which is for the moment secular. Also don't forget our historic background about secularism and schools. Imagine also the propaganda arguments for extremist parties (yeah, I mean the FN) which could once again pretend that French culture is "invaded" and "french values" crushed. What disturbs me in this law is the "anti-muslim" side, even if according to polls majority of french muslims would favor such a law and this law wouldn't specifically target the islamic veil. BadJerry wrote: Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? :-D
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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Mike Mullikin wrote: The democrats would be screaming impeachment. This is a quiet non-partisan topic there. Mike Mullikin wrote: All public school kids should wear uniforms to school. It could be solution, but then the uniforms should be cheap enough, or be furnished by schools. However I believe that cumulated with the rebel spirit of teenagers, such an obligation would lead to a kind of Revolution.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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BadJerry wrote: And pupils will not study less if they wear a turban, a scarf or a cross But this would create religious tensions in a sector which is for the moment secular. Also don't forget our historic background about secularism and schools. Imagine also the propaganda arguments for extremist parties (yeah, I mean the FN) which could once again pretend that French culture is "invaded" and "french values" crushed. What disturbs me in this law is the "anti-muslim" side, even if according to polls majority of french muslims would favor such a law and this law wouldn't specifically target the islamic veil. BadJerry wrote: Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? :-D
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
KaЯl wrote: BadJerry wrote: Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? It all depends on the breasts. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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BadJerry wrote: And pupils will not study less if they wear a turban, a scarf or a cross But this would create religious tensions in a sector which is for the moment secular. Also don't forget our historic background about secularism and schools. Imagine also the propaganda arguments for extremist parties (yeah, I mean the FN) which could once again pretend that French culture is "invaded" and "french values" crushed. What disturbs me in this law is the "anti-muslim" side, even if according to polls majority of french muslims would favor such a law and this law wouldn't specifically target the islamic veil. BadJerry wrote: Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? :-D
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
KaЯl wrote: propaganda arguments for extremist parties We cannot allow them to dictate what's right and wrong otherways they win. The French culture is invaded. It is a fact. They have to accept it. Let us make sure we keep your grand mother's recipe of cassoulet and whatever that makes us truly French. We also have a history of religious intolerance and oppression and that's something I would happily see fade away! KaЯl wrote: Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? In the face of beauty, who is not thankful and delighted?
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There's a great debate there about the necessity to make a new law forbidding schoolboys and schoolgirls to wear ostentatious religious signs (cf. http://www.swisspolitics.org/en/news/index.php?section=int&page=news_inhalt&news_id=4521696[^]) What's your opinion on the subject?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
I don't think they should pass such a law. Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students. Unless the religious display is a t-shirt that says "Jesus can kick Buddhas ASS!" or something like that then it should be allowed (provided it doesn't violate other rules like say too much jewelry or no t-shirts with slogans, etc.)
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KaЯl wrote: BadJerry wrote: Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? It all depends on the breasts. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I don't think they should pass such a law. Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students. Unless the religious display is a t-shirt that says "Jesus can kick Buddhas ASS!" or something like that then it should be allowed (provided it doesn't violate other rules like say too much jewelry or no t-shirts with slogans, etc.)
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President Jacques Chirac has denounced Muslim headscarves on schoolgirls as offensive and expressed concern about Islamic fundamentalism as momentum builds up in France to bar all religious symbols from public schools. Speaking on a visit to Tunisia on Friday, Chirac said the strictly secular French state could not let pupils wear what he called "ostentatious signs of religious proselytism" and saw "something aggressive" in the wearing of traditional Muslim veils. <Nothing to do with my personal opinion on the topic> I can only imagine the world-wide uproar if GWB had made these statements!! The democrats would be screaming impeachment. </Nothing to do with my personal opinion on the topic> <My opinion> All public school kids should wear uniforms to school. No designer clothes. No gang colors or symbols. No religious symbols of any kind. </My opinion> All I've ever wanted was an honest week's pay for an honest day's work.
Mike Mullikin wrote: All public school kids should wear uniforms to school. No designer clothes. No gang colors or symbols. No religious symbols of any kind. I wore a uniform to School and at the time I hated it. However I am now in favour. No designer clothes: Kids don't compete with each other on who has the most expensive trainers or the coolest clothes. No gang colours or symbols: "Gang" can also be replaced with "football" colours (which in some cities can be highly flamable). When I was at school one of the older kids once pinned me against a wall and asked if I was a Hearts (Heart of Midlothain - Protestant) or Hibs (Hibernian - Catholic) supporter. (Actually I was neither, as I didn't care for football). Thank that I recalled that he wore purple (of Hearts) during the PE lessons and answered "right".... Curiously I recently heard that he is now a Police Officer in the North of England now. No religious symbols: As far as I am concerned it is up to the individual which religion he or she should belong to. School should not impose it. If anyone should it is the parents. If a parent wants their child to have religious lessons at school then they can pay to send them to a special school. No Religious symbols can also be no political symbols here too (and that should also go for the teachers). I recall an English lesson where the interpretation exercise was based on a newspaper article called "In the Blue corner and in the Red Corner" about the Conservative and Labour paries in Britain. The teacher asked a loaded question and I stupidly rose to the bait. She asked "Which party promoted greater freedom?" :omg: Well, she was a staunch socialise and I was going through my "somewhere to the far right of Margaret Thather phase" :-O (as my father once put it) and sparks flew. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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I don't think they should pass such a law. Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students. Unless the religious display is a t-shirt that says "Jesus can kick Buddhas ASS!" or something like that then it should be allowed (provided it doesn't violate other rules like say too much jewelry or no t-shirts with slogans, etc.)
Terry O`Nolley wrote: Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students Isn't it nonetheless the best way to keep the system secular, and let religious conflicts as outside of school as possible? Can a secular school tolerate religious propaganda?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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KaЯl wrote: propaganda arguments for extremist parties We cannot allow them to dictate what's right and wrong otherways they win. The French culture is invaded. It is a fact. They have to accept it. Let us make sure we keep your grand mother's recipe of cassoulet and whatever that makes us truly French. We also have a history of religious intolerance and oppression and that's something I would happily see fade away! KaЯl wrote: Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? In the face of beauty, who is not thankful and delighted?
BadJerry wrote: The French culture is invaded. It is a fact No, I don't think so. IMHO, french culture has always been a mix of different influences. Being not static, it still evolves by integrating new external elements. As the US, we are a kind of cultural Borgs assimilating other cultures to make a new one. BadJerry wrote: We also have a history of religious intolerance and oppression and that's something I would happily see fade away! That's why the subject is so sensitive, I presume.
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students Isn't it nonetheless the best way to keep the system secular, and let religious conflicts as outside of school as possible? Can a secular school tolerate religious propaganda?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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Terry O`Nolley wrote: Just because a school is public doesn't mean it should ban religious expression amongst the students Isn't it nonetheless the best way to keep the system secular, and let religious conflicts as outside of school as possible? Can a secular school tolerate religious propaganda?
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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By the way, I cannot believe I am ganging against you with Terry! I love codeproject! Anything can happen!
BadJerry wrote: ganging I mistread this word at first, and then the mental image I saw forced me to verify. Thanks God, I was wrong! :rolleyes: BadJerry wrote: I am ganging against you with Terry Shame, shame on you! ;):laugh:
Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Tous les remords n'y changeront rien Le temps se perd, "Si" n'existe pas Donc à présent le choix reste mien
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KaЯl wrote: BadJerry wrote: Most Americans I know are surprised to see naked breasts on the French beaches Is "surprized" the correct word, or would that be "delighted" instead? It all depends on the breasts. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke