Microsoft's Ballmer wants to cut Programmer's Salaries...
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Its going to take quite a while for things to level out, but I think that salaries may have to go down a bit in the US. Unfortunately I doubt if the people in charge will be taking cuts... The tigress is here :-D
I have always wanted to be cheap labor competing against China and India just to see how low wages can go. In fact I think I will sell my house move into a box to give me that extra edge. Perhaps if I sell off all of my Windows stuff and get the cheap open source gear I can be affordable enough to work here in the US.
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Which three were those? (Are we talking about hair (or lack thereof) exclusively now?) -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Which three were those? Well, there's a bit more than three left, but... oh, wait - i wasn't referring to hair. Ah, well... logging *can* help prevent deforestation, but i wouldn't necessarily trust those who benefit more in the short term from it... The (US) dairy industry is fucked... And if programmer salaries need to be reduced, then market conditions will ensure this happens - but this won't do much to increase graduation rates. *shog strokes remaining hair thoughtfully* Z
no one puts flowers
on a flower's grave
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: 50-75 years from now, I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. Holy crap - wouldn't that be a slap in the face to the anti-capitalists who say we need a world-union to stop the spread of the nasty capitalism monster? Hopefully the world will be wise enough at that time to make it a 'let's constrain the bits of capitalism that can turn parts of society really ugly' instead of 'let's constrain peoples ability to participate in the market so that companies don't have to keep evolving'. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
Russell Morris wrote: Hopefully the world will be wise enough at that time to make it a 'let's constrain the bits of capitalism that can turn parts of society really ugly' instead of 'let's constrain peoples ability to participate in the market so that companies don't have to keep evolving'. Well said! I think I'm going to keep that one as a quote to use later. :)
**"To know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice." -- Confucius
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Its going to take quite a while for things to level out, but I think that salaries may have to go down a bit in the US. Unfortunately I doubt if the people in charge will be taking cuts... The tigress is here :-D
It seems more likely that workloads will go up instead of salaries going down. Our company is typical of the ones I am aware of - cutbacks to just below where they should be and then distribute the excess workload among the remaining employees. Steve
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...lumber industry executives have recently suggested cutting trees to prevent deforestation... ...dairy producers have responded to an oversaturated milk market by producing more milk... ...and i've decided to combat baldness by getting shorter haircuts. :rolleyes: Z
no one puts flowers
on a flower's grave
That's what I do: If you haven't got it, flaunt it. :thinning-emoticon:
Software Zen:
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The same thing will happen with China I suspect. The die hard commies in China have tasted the sweet taste of capitalism. A more worrying situation is when India and China starts to produce their own software to compete with the rest of the world. There are more potential IT workers in China than there is in Europe and the US combined. Add India ontop of that. 50-75 years from now, I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Outsourcing is so bad in the United States, that I once heard of an Indian guy losing his job in California to outsourcing from his own country (India). Geez, you know it's bad when Indians are losing jobs to Indians. :wtf:
R.Bischoff .NET, Kommst du mit?
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Russell Morris wrote: Hopefully the world will be wise enough at that time to make it a 'let's constrain the bits of capitalism that can turn parts of society really ugly' instead of 'let's constrain peoples ability to participate in the market so that companies don't have to keep evolving'. That's why I believe such a union will be needed. I mean, how much would the US take, if the rest of the world basically stripped it of its richess? At some point conflicts would arise - and I don't think this is specific to the US, any country who feels that it's "robbed" would be in conflict. I don't think it'll be as tight of a union as the EU, but it'll be a bit more than a set of trade agreements. -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I mean, how much would the US take, if the rest of the world basically stripped it of its richess? I'm not entirely sure the rest of the world really could without significantly harming themselves in the process. I think the situation is the same for any heavily industrialized country that's rich enough to have a citizenry that can spend the first 20 years of their lives in school. This situation you describe is far more likely, in my opinion, to be a problem for either poorer states or ones that don't contribute heavily to a significant number of industries. Essentially, there will need to be some way for countries that can't say 'hurt me and you hurt yourself' to ensure that they're able to actually contribute to the global economy instead of just falling by the wayside and subsisting on handouts from richer and more powerful nations. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I don't think it'll be as tight of a union as the EU, but it'll be a bit more than a set of trade agreements. Hopefully so - this would seem to be a scenario in which countries could still maintain their national soveriegnty and identity while at the same time participating on a much more global scale. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Who's the 'people in charge'? I'm really not trying to be a troll here or anything - but why should folks at the 'top' necessarily have to take a pay cut because a certain portion of the workforce their company employees is all of a sudden worth less to the global market? It's not like they've done anything wrong, is it? I can understand the pay cuts across the board when a company is struggling financially - in this case I think it's ridiculous that company execs & high-level managers even get above-subsistence paychecks. The health of the company is their primary responsibility: shouldn't it follow that they do everything they possibly can to keep the company afloat? -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
Typically, people in charge of companies, bankers etc.. Look at who supplies finance for many foreign copmanies who compete with US companies. Yes, US banks. Also, remember when HP had a 10% paycut ? Borad memebers didn't take a cut. The tigress is here :-D
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I have always wanted to be cheap labor competing against China and India just to see how low wages can go. In fact I think I will sell my house move into a box to give me that extra edge. Perhaps if I sell off all of my Windows stuff and get the cheap open source gear I can be affordable enough to work here in the US.
I didn't say its nice, I didn't say its fair. Its a global market and you have to choose wether or not to compete. In time things will level up but I'm not sure when. Until then there will be pain which we get in Europe too. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Its going to take quite a while for things to level out, but I think that salaries may have to go down a bit in the US. Unfortunately I doubt if the people in charge will be taking cuts... The tigress is here :-D
Unfortunately, salaries are going down, at least in places. In the last three years, my salary has increased only by about 3-4% total, and those were merit increases. Technology jobs in general in my area have not been seeing parity with the rise in the cost of living. The other process that's occurring is higher-end employees are being forced to move into lower paying positions as companies reorganize and 'tighten their belts'. Lower level employees are laid off, and upper level employees are told their positions have been reclassified, with a corresponding pay cut. The end result of these two phenomena is effectively a lowering of salaries. Now, that said, I have to count my blessings. My personal situation is good. My job is secure and is not subject to outsourcing (too much specialized expertise required). I'm an old fart (I've been programming professionally since 1980), and I hit the glass ceiling some time ago, so I'm used to not receiving large pay increments every year. I've done some consulting, and could probably make a living at it if I needed to. The only reason I haven't is that I like the security of a 9-5 position with a paycheck that appears like clockwork every two weeks.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
It seems more likely that workloads will go up instead of salaries going down. Our company is typical of the ones I am aware of - cutbacks to just below where they should be and then distribute the excess workload among the remaining employees. Steve
That seems quite likely. In time the costs will rise in other countries but for now its hard on those in the more developed countries. The UK has weathered things well but we're being hurt too. The tigress is here :-D
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Unfortunately, salaries are going down, at least in places. In the last three years, my salary has increased only by about 3-4% total, and those were merit increases. Technology jobs in general in my area have not been seeing parity with the rise in the cost of living. The other process that's occurring is higher-end employees are being forced to move into lower paying positions as companies reorganize and 'tighten their belts'. Lower level employees are laid off, and upper level employees are told their positions have been reclassified, with a corresponding pay cut. The end result of these two phenomena is effectively a lowering of salaries. Now, that said, I have to count my blessings. My personal situation is good. My job is secure and is not subject to outsourcing (too much specialized expertise required). I'm an old fart (I've been programming professionally since 1980), and I hit the glass ceiling some time ago, so I'm used to not receiving large pay increments every year. I've done some consulting, and could probably make a living at it if I needed to. The only reason I haven't is that I like the security of a 9-5 position with a paycheck that appears like clockwork every two weeks.
Software Zen:
delete this;I am staying with the security of a large firm too, but in a specialist area where its more difficult for other firms to compete (I develop functional test for a range of special products). Its a case of stop moving and end up in a corner. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Typically, people in charge of companies, bankers etc.. Look at who supplies finance for many foreign copmanies who compete with US companies. Yes, US banks. Also, remember when HP had a 10% paycut ? Borad memebers didn't take a cut. The tigress is here :-D
Maybe I'm missing something here and perhaps this comment is naïve in someway but wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. If the company gets back on track then back pay can be paid to the board members (I really don't think many companies will do that for all employees) for doing their job properly. If the company doesn't get back on track then the board members lose out. Thus this creates an incentive for the board members to get their finger out and put the company back on track. So, if the directors do their job properly they have not lost out. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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The same thing will happen with China I suspect. The die hard commies in China have tasted the sweet taste of capitalism. A more worrying situation is when India and China starts to produce their own software to compete with the rest of the world. There are more potential IT workers in China than there is in Europe and the US combined. Add India ontop of that. 50-75 years from now, I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. Oh geeeze now that really makes me feel better... IMHO unions are one of the factors responsible for other economic collapses (IE: Steel, Auto…) Unions do the bad things like set wages based upon years of service (not productivity, intelligence or work ethic) mandate that employees become members of the union to be allowed to work in certain industries, etc… All crap.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. Oh geeeze now that really makes me feel better... IMHO unions are one of the factors responsible for other economic collapses (IE: Steel, Auto…) Unions do the bad things like set wages based upon years of service (not productivity, intelligence or work ethic) mandate that employees become members of the union to be allowed to work in certain industries, etc… All crap.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
I think we're talking about different unions. :) -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
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I think we're talking about different unions. :) -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
There's a dream I feel, So rare so real, All the world in union, The world as one Gathering together One mind one heart Every creed, every colour, Once joined, never apart. Searching for the best in me I will find what I can be If I win lose or draw, There's a winner in us all, It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, We face high mountains, Must cross rough seas, we must take our place in history, and live with dignity. Just to be the best I can, Sets the goal of every man, If I win lose or draw, It's a victory for us all. It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, It's the world in union, A new age has begun. :-D --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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There's a dream I feel, So rare so real, All the world in union, The world as one Gathering together One mind one heart Every creed, every colour, Once joined, never apart. Searching for the best in me I will find what I can be If I win lose or draw, There's a winner in us all, It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, We face high mountains, Must cross rough seas, we must take our place in history, and live with dignity. Just to be the best I can, Sets the goal of every man, If I win lose or draw, It's a victory for us all. It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, It's the world in union, A new age has begun. :-D --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
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It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? I vow thee to my music[^] No Australian can call him arrogant. No sneering headline can scoff: 'Is that all you've got?' No, Charlie Skarbek is an unquestionable English World Cup success. The music producer once carved a niche for himself making pop songs from classical melodies. Then, 12 years ago, the World Cup came to ITV and Skarbek sent in a rendition of a famous Holst melody underlaid with a heavy beat. The broadcasters promptly asked him to write some new words, and he happily came up with World in Union . Sung by Kiri Te Kanawa, it went to number one. Skarbek, a long-term rugby fan, says: 'I was always totally plugged in to this music and knew it was just perfect for rugby: bombastic but modular enough to be reflective as well as large.' Now it's the official tournament anthem, although Skarbek has control of its use elsewhere. Every four years he's heavily, and happily, involved in elaborate re- workings. And what does he think each time he switches on and hears those magic chords swell out? 'It's not loud enough!' --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Maybe I'm missing something here and perhaps this comment is naïve in someway but wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. If the company gets back on track then back pay can be paid to the board members (I really don't think many companies will do that for all employees) for doing their job properly. If the company doesn't get back on track then the board members lose out. Thus this creates an incentive for the board members to get their finger out and put the company back on track. So, if the directors do their job properly they have not lost out. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? I vow thee to my music[^] No Australian can call him arrogant. No sneering headline can scoff: 'Is that all you've got?' No, Charlie Skarbek is an unquestionable English World Cup success. The music producer once carved a niche for himself making pop songs from classical melodies. Then, 12 years ago, the World Cup came to ITV and Skarbek sent in a rendition of a famous Holst melody underlaid with a heavy beat. The broadcasters promptly asked him to write some new words, and he happily came up with World in Union . Sung by Kiri Te Kanawa, it went to number one. Skarbek, a long-term rugby fan, says: 'I was always totally plugged in to this music and knew it was just perfect for rugby: bombastic but modular enough to be reflective as well as large.' Now it's the official tournament anthem, although Skarbek has control of its use elsewhere. Every four years he's heavily, and happily, involved in elaborate re- workings. And what does he think each time he switches on and hears those magic chords swell out? 'It's not loud enough!' --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
Rugby. :doh: -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?