Programming is Programming
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Yeah - and ASP is a real language! Isn't it? Guys? GUYS?? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
I thought ASP was the disguise that VBScript used to look respectable :-) Michael :-)
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Programming is Programming no matter what language is used. There have been a lot of messages posted about C++ being a proper language and C# and VB not being. I say that programming isn't about the language, but the methodology used. Providing a program is spec'ed, designed, coded, debugged and tested, what does it matter which language is used. I love C++, I've been using it for more years than I care to remember and used C for years before that. However even I admit that it isn't the best language for writing some applications. C# with ASP.NET looks to me to be the perfect tool for writing web applications and VB is great for database work. Of course C++ can do both of these but the debugging/development time for C++ I find to be longer than for other languages. The right tool for the right job, Michael :-)
Providing a program is spec'ed, designed, coded, debugged and tested, what does it matter which language is used. Theretically you are correct. However in practice the applications written in VB tend to lack most of those - they are "just coded", in a hurry (Rapid Application Developemt, huh) and with little or no spec and design. Testing usually limited to the extreme (the same guy writes and test) and debugging... eh, leave it alone, who has time to debug application with a life span of just couple of hours...
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Providing a program is spec'ed, designed, coded, debugged and tested, what does it matter which language is used. Theretically you are correct. However in practice the applications written in VB tend to lack most of those - they are "just coded", in a hurry (Rapid Application Developemt, huh) and with little or no spec and design. Testing usually limited to the extreme (the same guy writes and test) and debugging... eh, leave it alone, who has time to debug application with a life span of just couple of hours...
That is exactly what Michael is evangelising. If you code properly with VB you can create good programmes. It just happens that C++ you can't really rush development unless you want critical bugs occuring all the time. VB you can rush development and have a semi-stable product (though it is still crap). I have also seen crappy C++ projects, not properly specced or thought out. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge "In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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Yeah - and ASP is a real language! Isn't it? Guys? GUYS?? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
LOL Why not go one further; walk into a crowd of programmers and say "I do HTML". If you manage to come out with your pride intact then you must have your CC number printed on your t-shirt. You know what bugged* me about ASP? The lack of good development tools. I mean development tools like VB has. Interdev is a joke really, sure it has intellisense and code colouring but errr that's about that. Other ASP coders are the same. * been playing with VS.NET and ASP.NET and I am in 7th heaven. I got a drop down list to display a database list (and affect a datagrid) in under 4 minutes. Doing that in normal ASP was a mission! :-D VS.NET is something else, truly awesome IDE. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge "In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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That is exactly what Michael is evangelising. If you code properly with VB you can create good programmes. It just happens that C++ you can't really rush development unless you want critical bugs occuring all the time. VB you can rush development and have a semi-stable product (though it is still crap). I have also seen crappy C++ projects, not properly specced or thought out. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge "In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
If you code properly with VB you can create good programmes But the problem is that code properly with VB doesn't happen in a real life. It's simply because if you code properly it will take you the same amount of time in any language since coding is not a major timing factor for applications coded properly. VB is designed to produce a quick and dirty apllications - exactly what you described as a semi-stable product. I have also seen crappy C++ projects, not properly specced or thought out. I've seen a few as well. Guess what: they were mostly done by ex-VB'ers who didn't know how to go around a proper OO programming and memory management or error-handling. ;P
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If you code properly with VB you can create good programmes But the problem is that code properly with VB doesn't happen in a real life. It's simply because if you code properly it will take you the same amount of time in any language since coding is not a major timing factor for applications coded properly. VB is designed to produce a quick and dirty apllications - exactly what you described as a semi-stable product. I have also seen crappy C++ projects, not properly specced or thought out. I've seen a few as well. Guess what: they were mostly done by ex-VB'ers who didn't know how to go around a proper OO programming and memory management or error-handling. ;P
Not being one to walk past a good argument without comment I'ld like to add a bit. If we're talking 'quicky utility' programming, from scratch, then vb is as good as anyother (unless that quicky utility has to plough through a million bits of data toot suite). How ever, most C/C++ programmers has stacks of code their wrote earlier, ready to slip it in when needed. There's an old saying. A good programmer is a lazy b@stard, he/she will write code in such a way that it only needs to be written once. We do it for the joy of seeing the users struggle.
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Not being one to walk past a good argument without comment I'ld like to add a bit. If we're talking 'quicky utility' programming, from scratch, then vb is as good as anyother (unless that quicky utility has to plough through a million bits of data toot suite). How ever, most C/C++ programmers has stacks of code their wrote earlier, ready to slip it in when needed. There's an old saying. A good programmer is a lazy b@stard, he/she will write code in such a way that it only needs to be written once. We do it for the joy of seeing the users struggle.
There's an old saying. A good programmer is a lazy b@stard, he/she will write code in such a way that it only needs to be written once. Wells said Rassman, Hey, I must be a good programmer, after 3.25 yrs of VC++ I still haven't bothered to learn how to use the debugger.:-) Anyhow I was taught yonks ago the last thing you do is write the code. This doesn't hold well in many workplaces though, where project managers etc, expect to see coders hunched over keyboards and monitors typing furiously! Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
Bring back the EMBED tag
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There's an old saying. A good programmer is a lazy b@stard, he/she will write code in such a way that it only needs to be written once. Wells said Rassman, Hey, I must be a good programmer, after 3.25 yrs of VC++ I still haven't bothered to learn how to use the debugger.:-) Anyhow I was taught yonks ago the last thing you do is write the code. This doesn't hold well in many workplaces though, where project managers etc, expect to see coders hunched over keyboards and monitors typing furiously! Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
Bring back the EMBED tag
I got a bit cheesed off with the debugger, dare'ing to tell me there's bugs in my code and such. I do it more manually these days with billions of void FantasticFunction(int Number) { #if BOBS_DE_BUGGER TRACE("FantasticFunction(%d)",Number) TRACE(loads of stuff) #endif } scattered arround my code. We do it for the joy of seeing the users struggle.
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Yeah - and ASP is a real language! Isn't it? Guys? GUYS?? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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Programming is Programming no matter what language is used. There have been a lot of messages posted about C++ being a proper language and C# and VB not being. I say that programming isn't about the language, but the methodology used. Providing a program is spec'ed, designed, coded, debugged and tested, what does it matter which language is used. I love C++, I've been using it for more years than I care to remember and used C for years before that. However even I admit that it isn't the best language for writing some applications. C# with ASP.NET looks to me to be the perfect tool for writing web applications and VB is great for database work. Of course C++ can do both of these but the debugging/development time for C++ I find to be longer than for other languages. The right tool for the right job, Michael :-)
I'd say you're right about the fact that it's about the methodology used. But the language has a lot to do with that. Languages tend to fit thinking patterns or mindsets. Some problems need to be approached with a certian mindset, and some languages don't lend themselves to that mindset. Think about AI programming. You're not going to want to tackle that with VB. You're probably don't want to use C/C++ either. You're more than likely going to use a language that maps better to the problem, which in the case of AI, is usually Scheme or Lisp. (This very infomation was discussed on another board I frequent). A lot of this also comes down to personal prefrence. I generally don't like VB because it doesn't map to the way I think. It also is lacking quite a bit as far as functionality (Multiple inheritance, closures, etc) but that's a different topic all together. For me personally, Perl maps best to the way I think, but the issue is that Perl programs become unwieldly when they get large (maybe Perl 6 will fix this). So now I'm looking to C# to see if I can find something that works for larger code bases for me. It will be really nice when .NET is ported to UNIX so people won't have to maintain seperate projects, and/or can release something that's cross platform.
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Programming is Programming no matter what language is used. There have been a lot of messages posted about C++ being a proper language and C# and VB not being. I say that programming isn't about the language, but the methodology used. Providing a program is spec'ed, designed, coded, debugged and tested, what does it matter which language is used. I love C++, I've been using it for more years than I care to remember and used C for years before that. However even I admit that it isn't the best language for writing some applications. C# with ASP.NET looks to me to be the perfect tool for writing web applications and VB is great for database work. Of course C++ can do both of these but the debugging/development time for C++ I find to be longer than for other languages. The right tool for the right job, Michael :-)
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no matter if you sit on a lobotomized pony in the pet zoo, or go out to the wild and catch your own (if there were any left ;~)
thats not the same at all. The pony at the zoo is tame and used to being sat on, the wild one kept throwing me off. c++ is tame and getting tamer. But just when you think you have VB where you want it and get ready to ride its says 'get lost scum bag, I aint doing that and I will not tell you why'. We do it for the joy of seeing the users struggle.
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thats not the same at all. The pony at the zoo is tame and used to being sat on, the wild one kept throwing me off. c++ is tame and getting tamer. But just when you think you have VB where you want it and get ready to ride its says 'get lost scum bag, I aint doing that and I will not tell you why'. We do it for the joy of seeing the users struggle.