How did you get your computer programming job?
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
My first job, which lasted all of 3 weeks, came through a computer course I did. I came top of the class and they gave me an unpaid job fixing several hundred reports in Prolog, that did not last. My second job I *cough* used a recruitment agency *cough*. That lasted a year and then the boss threw a sofa at me and I quit :~ My third and current job, for the past 5 years, I also got through a recruitment agency but they were really cool. Bunch of programmers sick of rubbish recruitment agencies got together and made a network to find programmers jobs. Sadly they went belly up about a month after finding me this great job with Bluegrass. They almost got me another cool job which would have been with Jupiter, an ad agency. If I were to get a fourth job I would use personal contacts. Have met only one reasonable agency in the last five years and I don't think I would use online job boards. And I have no education, all self taught. Well, I did a 4 month COBOL programming course straight out of school but that was for a bit of paper which netted me that wonderful first job. In retrospect I do wish I had a degree, but I can't go into the why of that :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "...that would require my explaining Einstein's Fear of Relatives" Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
I came here 15 years ago on work experience during my second year of college and never left!
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My first job, which lasted all of 3 weeks, came through a computer course I did. I came top of the class and they gave me an unpaid job fixing several hundred reports in Prolog, that did not last. My second job I *cough* used a recruitment agency *cough*. That lasted a year and then the boss threw a sofa at me and I quit :~ My third and current job, for the past 5 years, I also got through a recruitment agency but they were really cool. Bunch of programmers sick of rubbish recruitment agencies got together and made a network to find programmers jobs. Sadly they went belly up about a month after finding me this great job with Bluegrass. They almost got me another cool job which would have been with Jupiter, an ad agency. If I were to get a fourth job I would use personal contacts. Have met only one reasonable agency in the last five years and I don't think I would use online job boards. And I have no education, all self taught. Well, I did a 4 month COBOL programming course straight out of school but that was for a bit of paper which netted me that wonderful first job. In retrospect I do wish I had a degree, but I can't go into the why of that :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "...that would require my explaining Einstein's Fear of Relatives" Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
Paul Watson wrote: fixing several hundred reports in Prolog You're the only one I know who remembers that language. Although it totally baffled me (predicate logic is a whole new way of thinking), I really enjoyed it, and still believe that it will become a major player one day when AI catches on in mainstream applications. Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
eggie5 wrote: I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? Hmm. Difficult question. I now work for my own company and I hired myself because I was the best applicant for the job... umm, actually the only applicatant ;-) Through out may career, I've only ever got one job I saw advertised. All the rest of my work since I was 17 was either through people I knew or people who had recommended me. Even now, all my consultant work comes from recommendations rather than advertising my services. As for reeling the jobs in. I can usually talk a pretty good game, knowing when to keep things simple and when to let my knowledge and experience shine. Of course, it helps that I only apply for jobs that I know will interest me and let me have a personal investment in their success. I haven't got any formal programming qualifications except a crappy little qualification from college way back in 1990. Michael But you know when the truth is told, That you can get what you want or you can just get old, Your're going to kick off before you even get halfway through. When will you realise... Vienna waits for you? - "The Stranger," Billy Joel
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
This was 10 years ago, before the age of the internet.... My mum saw an add in a local newspaper which read "A degree qualified computer programmer with A level chemistry...." I had no chemistry, I barely had the degree. What the hell, I'll apply to get my mum of my back. 10 Years at the same company and counting.... Thanks mum! :-D :rose: Roger Allen - Sonork 100.10016 Strong Sad: Clever I am? Next to no one. Undiscovered and soggy. Look up. Look down. They're around. Probably laughing. Still, bright, watery. Listed among the top. Ten. Nine. Late night. Early morn. Early mourn. Now I sleep.
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
I have only had two employee type jobs. - The first on was when I met a guy in a bar and he said he was looking for someone who could think in FORTRAN. I jotted out a 30 line app on a bit of paper and he was impressed. 3 days later I was punching cards. The second job was when I met a guy in a bar who needed a KOBOL wizard. So I chatted COBOL for a while, and a few days later I was marking cards. - Formal qualifications - Zilch However I could read manuals fast and remember what was in them, and in those days the manuals were not too thick. If anything the documenters went out of there way to pad them. - Things i have learned, Only prima donnas have outstanding successes and are remembered, and projects organized into groups (or any other new managemnet idea) are highly likely to fail. Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. Companys who use HR departments employ the worst programmers with the best qualifications. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Paul Watson wrote: fixing several hundred reports in Prolog You're the only one I know who remembers that language. Although it totally baffled me (predicate logic is a whole new way of thinking), I really enjoyed it, and still believe that it will become a major player one day when AI catches on in mainstream applications. Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
Roger Wright wrote: You're the only one I know who remembers that language I know that one too. I specialised in AI type subjects at uni, so spent a fair bit of time in LISP and Prolog (and some in other functional languages too). Not that I was much good at it :rolleyes: I'd taken a similar attitude you had with regard to analog/digital stuff, but with AI/Database courses instead. I figured I'd learn all the database thingys in a job anyway, so I might as well learn something that was interesting and more challenging instead. And I was right - I did learn the database stuff in a job - plus having a background in various AI-related languages made understanding database things quite simple - SQL is just a different syntax for set processing compared with LISP and functional languages, after all.
Ian Darling "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
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Roger Wright wrote: You're the only one I know who remembers that language I know that one too. I specialised in AI type subjects at uni, so spent a fair bit of time in LISP and Prolog (and some in other functional languages too). Not that I was much good at it :rolleyes: I'd taken a similar attitude you had with regard to analog/digital stuff, but with AI/Database courses instead. I figured I'd learn all the database thingys in a job anyway, so I might as well learn something that was interesting and more challenging instead. And I was right - I did learn the database stuff in a job - plus having a background in various AI-related languages made understanding database things quite simple - SQL is just a different syntax for set processing compared with LISP and functional languages, after all.
Ian Darling "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
Ian Darling wrote: LISP LISP Lost In a Sea of Parenthesis LISP Lost in Stupid Parenthesis LISP Lots of Infuriating & Silly Parenthesis LISP Lots of Irritating Stupid Parenthesis LISP Lots of Irritating Superfluous Parenthesis LISP Lots of Isolated Silly Parenthesis (((((sorry,)(but)I couldn't)resist)(making)this)joke) I see dumb people
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I have only had two employee type jobs. - The first on was when I met a guy in a bar and he said he was looking for someone who could think in FORTRAN. I jotted out a 30 line app on a bit of paper and he was impressed. 3 days later I was punching cards. The second job was when I met a guy in a bar who needed a KOBOL wizard. So I chatted COBOL for a while, and a few days later I was marking cards. - Formal qualifications - Zilch However I could read manuals fast and remember what was in them, and in those days the manuals were not too thick. If anything the documenters went out of there way to pad them. - Things i have learned, Only prima donnas have outstanding successes and are remembered, and projects organized into groups (or any other new managemnet idea) are highly likely to fail. Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. Companys who use HR departments employ the worst programmers with the best qualifications. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
ColinDavies wrote: Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. So true... I see dumb people
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I have only had two employee type jobs. - The first on was when I met a guy in a bar and he said he was looking for someone who could think in FORTRAN. I jotted out a 30 line app on a bit of paper and he was impressed. 3 days later I was punching cards. The second job was when I met a guy in a bar who needed a KOBOL wizard. So I chatted COBOL for a while, and a few days later I was marking cards. - Formal qualifications - Zilch However I could read manuals fast and remember what was in them, and in those days the manuals were not too thick. If anything the documenters went out of there way to pad them. - Things i have learned, Only prima donnas have outstanding successes and are remembered, and projects organized into groups (or any other new managemnet idea) are highly likely to fail. Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. Companys who use HR departments employ the worst programmers with the best qualifications. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
ColinDavies wrote: Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. My EGO is not that big.... Never be too proud to admit your wrong or your ignorance* * Unless talking to a woman Roger Allen - Sonork 100.10016 Strong Sad: Clever I am? Next to no one. Undiscovered and soggy. Look up. Look down. They're around. Probably laughing. Still, bright, watery. Listed among the top. Ten. Nine. Late night. Early morn. Early mourn. Now I sleep.
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I have only had two employee type jobs. - The first on was when I met a guy in a bar and he said he was looking for someone who could think in FORTRAN. I jotted out a 30 line app on a bit of paper and he was impressed. 3 days later I was punching cards. The second job was when I met a guy in a bar who needed a KOBOL wizard. So I chatted COBOL for a while, and a few days later I was marking cards. - Formal qualifications - Zilch However I could read manuals fast and remember what was in them, and in those days the manuals were not too thick. If anything the documenters went out of there way to pad them. - Things i have learned, Only prima donnas have outstanding successes and are remembered, and projects organized into groups (or any other new managemnet idea) are highly likely to fail. Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. Companys who use HR departments employ the worst programmers with the best qualifications. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
ColinDavies wrote: Only prima donnas have outstanding successes and are remembered, and projects organized into groups (or any other new managemnet idea) are highly likely to fail. On the surface this is true but I suggest reading Chris Duncan's Tribes book and then asking what success means to yourself. If it means what success is to prima donnas, you may be one. :) ColinDavies wrote: Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. Contradicts First Colin Davis Rule. Prima Donnas are the smartest people in the world. They tell you so daily. :rose: ColinDavies wrote: Companys who use HR departments employ the worst programmers with the best qualifications. But you will find virtually no programmers here, just coders. The programmers changed departments and are now creating the specs the coders hopefully are intelligent enough to follow. :~ I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
Before I worked for anyone, I started a computer hardware sales business. The business did not go well (probably because I knew zilch about running a business at the time.) However, one of my clients was impressed with my technical skills and offered me a job programming MS Access, VB and managing their network. I took it. I worked there for 3 years until my mouth got me in trouble, but in that time, I somehow managed to impress a client/partner of my employer. I was out of work for about 2 days and was hired again. This time as a C++ programmer which I picked up on the job. I still work with this person, though not at the same company. So, I guess word of mouth.
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
I obtained my first programming position through a classified ad for a local manufacturing company. I had my Associated degree and no other experience. I'd been working as a restaurant manager and thought it'd be a good change. That worked for about 5 yrs. Then I took a year of waiting tables, and spoke with a mate who I used to program with at my first job who was now at another company. He asked if I'd be interested, and I went in for an interview, and here I sit. That was 2 years ago. There were various attempts through placing agencies and online sites, classifieds, etc... that didn't work. BW CP Member Homepages
"And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun" -
I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
10 years ago, i looked in the newspaper, found an ad, submitted my resume. it's been downhill ever since. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
My first position was through a friend of my dads. Being an engineer, my old-man became facinated with computers when they first came out. The only thing I could work out to do with these things involved a screwdriver and a stanley knife (I was extremely young and curious). Games just did not interest me. I would much rather ride my bike or something. One day I found a simple program that, with a few very simple instructions, could tell a small turtle where to go on the screen - anywhere you wanted with a bit of thinking. This facinated me so I explored it further... A programmer is born. Back to my first job... I left university to start this job - with a start-up. Back then in Australia, a uni computer degree involved knowing how to operate a mouse! The whole computer industry was about to explode and I didn't want to get left behind. I have since used agencies, word of mouth, and any means I could find. Agencies have to be the worst, with a few issolated exceptions. Word of mouth is by far the surest way to land a position. You pretty much know you have the job. Agencies lead you on, lie, cheat, steal... whatever they can do to earn a living. They just don't know how to communicate anything. For them its a matter of procedure. There was an instance where an agent asked on behalf of the company what 'VBS' was. Not hearing him properly I answered him with 'Bulitin Boadrds' (BBS). He just didn't care if I was right or wrong and recommended me to the company only because he had noone else with the right qualifications (Assembler/C - for an new AV product). I got the job anyway but, never met the agent - who picked up around 20K. This position was for a company called vCIS (which were later aquired by Internet Security Systems, ISS). ISS have since closed our development department here in Australia (after all that hard work - so if you want dirt on ISS...:~ ). Most of my work has been through word of mouth. I have just been shrouded in secrecy for so long now that I have lost touch with most of my old clients. Or the people I had been dealing with had moved on. I love programming, so "moving on" means finding out about the next technology and learning it. We have now decided to try and start our own company, slowly.
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ColinDavies wrote: Only prima donnas have outstanding successes and are remembered, and projects organized into groups (or any other new managemnet idea) are highly likely to fail. On the surface this is true but I suggest reading Chris Duncan's Tribes book and then asking what success means to yourself. If it means what success is to prima donnas, you may be one. :) ColinDavies wrote: Programmers who start after leaving Uni are only likely to succeed over non qualified programmers if they forget their egos. Contradicts First Colin Davis Rule. Prima Donnas are the smartest people in the world. They tell you so daily. :rose: ColinDavies wrote: Companys who use HR departments employ the worst programmers with the best qualifications. But you will find virtually no programmers here, just coders. The programmers changed departments and are now creating the specs the coders hopefully are intelligent enough to follow. :~ I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: On the surface this is true but I suggest reading Chris Duncan's Tribes book and then asking what success means to yourself. If it means what success is to prima donnas, you may be one. I'd love to read Chris's book, unfortunately I have a growing list of boring text books to read at the moment. (3+ hrs reading daily). I may well be a prima donna, however I don't do the temper tantrum stuff. May I'm more just a perfectionist with work. But on several occasions I have observed the output of real prima donnas, and dollar for dollar against normal groups, the prima donnas won, even considering how much disruption to others work they caused. I whole-heartedly agree these people are a pain, but their passion to perform is terrific. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
eggie5 wrote: What did you do to reel in your programming job? Generally I have been asked to do tasks on the periphery of my main task. For my current position I was asked to change departments and direct the work being done. So I could say for first time in my career I am in a programming group and not writing code but acting as the architect for the system. Ensuring those doing the coding are meeting standards (International not just company) Background: BS - Engineering Mechanics, Missouri School of Mines MS - Theoretical Mechanics, University of Illinois My first real programming task was as a research assistant as an undergraduate. I was in a class where we were writing our own finite element program. Another prof was impressed with my contribution (via what my prof had said) and offered me the job. This was in programming a solution to a plasticity analysis (Mine Roof Bolts if you know what they are.) This work had been done by two PHD Computer Science candidates over a 2 year period and was not resulting in correct answers. About a month later the work was finding the correct solutions. The whole issue was I understood what was physically possible and just added in tests to skip physically impossible but mathematically valid solutions. My opinion: Colin Davis wrote that companies with HR dept have the worst programmers. On one hand this is true but more to the point is those that stay in these positions often are restricted to only working to specs. Vs helping to create the specs. From my first example above to my current tasks. In some manner you need to model the business process that is to be solved as step one. I see most coding failures due to it not solving the desired task. Now in a large org it is never the coders fault but the specs were bad. Fine, why the specs were bad is seldom addressed. The customer is not the programming expert so they should not be asked for specs that define implementation details (if you are smart.) I have been in demand due to not being a good programmer but being able to first learn what the task is, then being a competent programmer to see the results delivered add value. Programmers do this, coders do not. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
This is true. At one time, when I was contracting on my own, I was nearing the end of a contract and about to start to look for more work. One day my wife comes home from her job at the hospital and says that her friend at work mentioned that her husband owns and runs a consulting company. Two weeks later I started working for him and now seven years later, I'm still here. This is the second longest that I have ever stayed at one company to work. And it looks like I will be staying here for many more, at least up until I retire. Believe me when I say that word of mouth and circumstances beyond your control can often play a significant role in how your career blossoms. :) Chris Meech We're more like a hobbiest in a Home Depot drooling at all the shiny power tools, rather than a craftsman that makes the chair to an exacting level of comfort by measuring the customer's butt. Marc Clifton VB is like a toolbox, in the hands of a craftsman, you can end up with some amazing stuff, but without the skills to use it right you end up with Homer Simpson's attempt at building a barbeque or his attempt at a Spice rack. Michael P. Butler
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: On the surface this is true but I suggest reading Chris Duncan's Tribes book and then asking what success means to yourself. If it means what success is to prima donnas, you may be one. I'd love to read Chris's book, unfortunately I have a growing list of boring text books to read at the moment. (3+ hrs reading daily). I may well be a prima donna, however I don't do the temper tantrum stuff. May I'm more just a perfectionist with work. But on several occasions I have observed the output of real prima donnas, and dollar for dollar against normal groups, the prima donnas won, even considering how much disruption to others work they caused. I whole-heartedly agree these people are a pain, but their passion to perform is terrific. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
ColinDavies wrote: may well be a prima donna My you was a generic one and not directly intended to be YOU. :rose: ColinDavies wrote: But on several occasions I have observed the output of real prima donnas, and dollar for dollar against normal groups, the prima donnas won, even considering how much disruption to others work they caused. Well, for those I consider to be prima donnas I can not say the same. I do not however automatically put all those with a passion to perform as prima donnas. May be that is because I do have a passion and just do not want to label myself. I am sure one group (not mentioned) does not like my passion at all. But I get along with 99% of the rest. :-D I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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I am currently drafting a research paper on the career of computer programming. I need to know, assuming you have a computer-programming job; how did you get it? There are many services out there: word of mouth, classifieds, headhunters, online programs, etc. What did you do to reel in your programming job? Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. Thank you for all the help. P.S. If your brave, share your position and where you work. Complain, Praise, whatever... I need the dirt. /\ |_ E X E GG
eggie5 wrote: how did you get it? I got my first one via the classifieds. For my latest one, a job-finding company contacted me, and lured me away from what I was doing. eggie5 wrote: Please include your comments along with education you received, degrees and/or certifications. While being employed full-time and raising a family, and most recently buying a small farm, I've managed to earn an Associates, Bachelors, and a Masters degree all in computer science. A few years back, I earned an MCSD certification. For a work-related MBO last year, I completed one of the MOUS exams. Sometime this year, I'll finish two more for the Master status. eggie5 wrote: P.S. If your brave, share ... where you work. Tulsa, OK.
"The pointy end goes in the other man." - Antonio Banderas (Zorro, 1998)