Homosexuality related question
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
Nish, you are taking homosexuality too seriosly. Some people find pleasure in it, is there need to go deeper (excuse the pun) than that? I have a friend who gets turned on by older women. I'm sure there is some sort of explanation for it, but who cares? Personally, in most cases I see homosexual activities nothing other than glorified masterbation. Thats all. :rose: peace to all humans. We are more similar than we think we are.
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Citations please. [edit] Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth, but fortunantly, there were those who challanged those initial - politically charged - conclusions. [\edit] "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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Ian Darling wrote: Bonobo Chimpanzees use homosexuality as a form of "social cement", apparently. So they, like, hang out in little jungle bathhouses? Give fashion advice to the non-gay bonobos? Stuff like that? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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I tried to think of a word that didn't have the negative connotations of "birth defect". I just meant that, at the species level, being passed a "gay gene" was equal to being passed a gene that would cause you to die before you reached reproductive age. But you raised some valid points - gay people often do have children. And our species has evolved intellectually and emotionally to the point where it would be possible for an entire race of gay people to still carry on the species. Hell - I'd even go so far as to say that the quality of life would be, on average, better for everyone in the world. Lower population - no unwanted pregnancies. Socially liberal mind set. But then I think - NO. They are still humans and therefore as soon as the holes opened up at the top of the social strata, the new assholes, reactionaries, conservatives and greedy pricks would emerge from the gay race and ruin everything all over again. Humanity is evolving, but it is not heading in the direction I would have chosen.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
Being gay doesn't exclude you from also being a greedy reactionary conservative arsehole. ;)
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
It's not found in the wild because the animals don't know that it's easy to become a down-trodden/persecuted minority simply by proclaiming some bizarre perception that they're somehow different from the rest of the species. ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
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http://www.zoosociety.org/Conservation/Bonobo/WhatIs.php[^]
Bonobos have developed a set of ritualized socio-sexual behaviors that are specific to their species. Sexual behaviors, displayed by individuals of all ages, have evolved to strengthen group cohesion. For example, mating is common between male and female adults even when the female is not fertile. There is also a higher frequency of homosexual behavior among bonobos of all ages (especially among adult females), and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension.
and...http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520205359/ref%3Dnosim/dannyyeesbook-20/002-2979371-7812039[^]
The bonobos are best known as the sexy chimpanzees. Their most striking idiosyncrasy is their readiness to use sex as a social lubricant. Any tension within a bonobo group is normally resolved by a quick orgy, in which they all have sex with one another, in all positions and combinations. Yet, as Frans de Waal explains in the elegant photo-essay Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, this is just one way in which they diverge markedly from the other chimpanzees. (NYT review of the linked book)
Stan Shannon wrote: Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth so, nothing is provable by observation...? we could be wrong about the earth going around the sun - who knows, maybe 100 years from now, some bright person will find the real truth. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
Chris Losinger wrote: and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension That's what we need - more social appeasement during times of group tension. Maybe the secretary down the hall would fall for that... Hmmm... ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
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I pretty much agree with this. Sex is just sex - doesn't matter who it's with really - love is something completely different. I know of a few people that have experimented sexually with people of the same gender (males and females) but it doesn't make them gay. I think more people would be willing to have bisexual experiences if it weren't for the bigotry that many homosexuals face. They are more scared of what people might think of them than the act itself! >In other words, the act doesn't make you gay. It is where your heart is. Yep. Pity many others don't see it like that really. If you were blindfolded and someone "gave you a nosh", unless they had a moustache - would you even know if it was a man or a woman? ;) Probably still feel good right? ;) ;)
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: unless they had a moustache - would you even know if it was a man or a woman? You're making a big assumption there... ;)
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Putting the laughter back into slaughter
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Chris Losinger wrote: and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension That's what we need - more social appeasement during times of group tension. Maybe the secretary down the hall would fall for that... Hmmm... ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
I can just see it now... "Hi Nancy, wow, you look really hot today, and it's pretty tense in here. Would you mind stroking the Willy for a bit? Thanks!" ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Stan Shannon wrote: Which completely invalidates the notion that homosexuality is based on nature and not nuture - its expression varies from culture to culture Actually, that can't logically be used as an argument against the "gay gene". Just because homosexual activity may be culturally endorsed doesn't preclude it from also being genetic. If this was true, then you are also saying that there is no genetic way that a woman can be born with blonde hair because in some societies, women bleach their hair blonde.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
But it does indicate that "sexual preference", which we are currently taught is unchagable and intrinsic, is, in fact, subject to culturally defined norms. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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But it does indicate that "sexual preference", which we are currently taught is unchagable and intrinsic, is, in fact, subject to culturally defined norms. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: But it does indicate that "sexual preference", which we are currently taught is unchagable and intrinsic, is, in fact, subject to culturally defined norms. It means that we need to realize that "sexual preference" isn't a good enough term. A straight man - ie a man who deeply feels the need for a loving relationship with a woman and wants to have children with her, etc. can still enjoy having sex with men just for the pleasure aspects of it. Here you have a man whose "sexual preference" can obviously not be described with a single term. Even the word "bi" falls short. We need to understand that who you fool around with bears little or no relationship to your "official" sexual orientation. Have I ever had a gay experience? No. Do I want to? No. Do gay people bug me? No. Have I gone to bars with gay friends? yes. Did I have a fun time flirting? Yes. Am I a cock tease? Apparently so. Straight men (ie your ancient greeks) can have same-sex partners and still be straight. Your intrinsic sexual preference is probably unchangable. But that doesn't preclude you from sharing pleasure with whoever you want from whatever gender you want.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
Nishant S wrote: The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine :laugh: That Freud can be a real bitch. ;P pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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http://www.zoosociety.org/Conservation/Bonobo/WhatIs.php[^]
Bonobos have developed a set of ritualized socio-sexual behaviors that are specific to their species. Sexual behaviors, displayed by individuals of all ages, have evolved to strengthen group cohesion. For example, mating is common between male and female adults even when the female is not fertile. There is also a higher frequency of homosexual behavior among bonobos of all ages (especially among adult females), and genital contact functions as social appeasement during times of group tension.
and...http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520205359/ref%3Dnosim/dannyyeesbook-20/002-2979371-7812039[^]
The bonobos are best known as the sexy chimpanzees. Their most striking idiosyncrasy is their readiness to use sex as a social lubricant. Any tension within a bonobo group is normally resolved by a quick orgy, in which they all have sex with one another, in all positions and combinations. Yet, as Frans de Waal explains in the elegant photo-essay Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, this is just one way in which they diverge markedly from the other chimpanzees. (NYT review of the linked book)
Stan Shannon wrote: Observations used to indicate that the sun went around the earth so, nothing is provable by observation...? we could be wrong about the earth going around the sun - who knows, maybe 100 years from now, some bright person will find the real truth. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
It seems these two studies contradict each other. One assumes "homosexual behavior" the other "orgies". The would appear to me to be a classic case of anthropomorphizing (sp?) the behavior of the bonobos. Perhaps it has something to do with their religious beliefs or perhaps it is intended to confuse predetors, or perhaps they themselves are merely confused. Yes, I think that is my hypothesis - during times of stress the bonobos lose the ability to distinquish one sex from another and actually believe themsleves to be copulating with members of the opposite gender. :laugh: In either case, this behavior would seem to discredit current theories of homosexuality. The bonobos do not seem to have an intrinsic "sexual prefrence" at all - homosexual or heterosexual during times of stress, but than return to heterosexual behavior. I don't see how these studies answer Nish's original question. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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Stan Shannon wrote: But it does indicate that "sexual preference", which we are currently taught is unchagable and intrinsic, is, in fact, subject to culturally defined norms. It means that we need to realize that "sexual preference" isn't a good enough term. A straight man - ie a man who deeply feels the need for a loving relationship with a woman and wants to have children with her, etc. can still enjoy having sex with men just for the pleasure aspects of it. Here you have a man whose "sexual preference" can obviously not be described with a single term. Even the word "bi" falls short. We need to understand that who you fool around with bears little or no relationship to your "official" sexual orientation. Have I ever had a gay experience? No. Do I want to? No. Do gay people bug me? No. Have I gone to bars with gay friends? yes. Did I have a fun time flirting? Yes. Am I a cock tease? Apparently so. Straight men (ie your ancient greeks) can have same-sex partners and still be straight. Your intrinsic sexual preference is probably unchangable. But that doesn't preclude you from sharing pleasure with whoever you want from whatever gender you want.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, I'm told that in many hispanic cultures men freqeuntly engage in what we would call homosexual behavior. But it is the one who assumes the role of the female who is considered homosexual and not the one in the role of the male - he is still considered 'straight'. My only point is that the current political charged definitions regarding homsexuality do not stand up to such observations. The homosexual movement is trying to legitimize itself with phony, or at least questionable, "science". "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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It seems these two studies contradict each other. One assumes "homosexual behavior" the other "orgies". The would appear to me to be a classic case of anthropomorphizing (sp?) the behavior of the bonobos. Perhaps it has something to do with their religious beliefs or perhaps it is intended to confuse predetors, or perhaps they themselves are merely confused. Yes, I think that is my hypothesis - during times of stress the bonobos lose the ability to distinquish one sex from another and actually believe themsleves to be copulating with members of the opposite gender. :laugh: In either case, this behavior would seem to discredit current theories of homosexuality. The bonobos do not seem to have an intrinsic "sexual prefrence" at all - homosexual or heterosexual during times of stress, but than return to heterosexual behavior. I don't see how these studies answer Nish's original question. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: It seems these two studies contradict each other. One assumes "homosexual behavior" the other "orgies". i don't see how that's a contradiction. if i catch you at an orgy giving someone a BJ, how should i describe it ? Stan Shannon wrote: The bonobos do not seem to have an intrinsic "sexual prefrence" at all - homosexual or heterosexual during times of stress, but than return to heterosexual behavior. one behavior for pleasure or social maintenance, one behavior for breeding and pleasure. if they were people, we'd call them "bi-sexual". perhaps bonobos are simply less rigid in their hetero/homo preferences - perhaps the norm for a bonobo is what we would call bi-sexual. if they could talk, maybe they'd say humans were strange for being so uptight and rigid about sex. but, if you want a clear preference, check out the penguins. Stan Shannon wrote: I don't see how these studies answer Nish's original question. what was the question? the only questions he asked were, i assume, rhetorical. but is homosexuality natural? yes, i think it is. it's not common, directly beneficial to breeding, or easy to explain (but neither is hermaphrodism), but it certainly happens. it can't be a product of our society or our times, because it's happened all through history, in all societies. -c Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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Nishant S wrote: The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine :laugh: That Freud can be a real bitch. ;P pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
:laugh: BW CP Member Homepages
"And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun" -
Nishant S wrote: The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine :laugh: That Freud can be a real bitch. ;P pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
sweet. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, I'm told that in many hispanic cultures men freqeuntly engage in what we would call homosexual behavior. But it is the one who assumes the role of the female who is considered homosexual and not the one in the role of the male - he is still considered 'straight'. My only point is that the current political charged definitions regarding homsexuality do not stand up to such observations. The homosexual movement is trying to legitimize itself with phony, or at least questionable, "science". "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: But it is the one who assumes the role of the female who is considered homosexual and not the one in the role of the male - he is still considered 'straight'. :) Yep. As long as you are the one "giving it to" your partner, you are still macho :) Even in prison - the guy doing the raping is straight - the one recieving is the bitch. Stan Shannon wrote: The homosexual movement is trying to legitimize itself with phony, or at least questionable, "science". Yeah - but that is true with all movements. Have you watched the Penn and Teller: Bullshit series on Showtime? It is really good at pointing out the various pseudo-scientific fallacies associated with environmental groups and other movements.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Nishant S wrote: The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine :laugh: That Freud can be a real bitch. ;P pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
:) Good catch!
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Guys I am not against homosexuality and I certainly do not have a problem with single-sex marriages being given legal status. But I was just wondering as to homosexuality being natural. Assume homosexuality is a biological thing. But then it's very curious indeed that homosexuality (to my knowledge) is not found among similar mammals to man like apes and monkeys. Now assume it's a mental thing - this is now rather tricky. Because now the genes and hormones are out of it. A person becomes homosexual by discovery. But then it can be argued that he wouldn't have realized his homosexuality had he not already been aware of such a thing. Rather confusing indeed eh? The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine a human being can slip into. Now while we need not think of it as being basically wrong, it's probably very much possible to revert someone's homosexuality by counselling or some such psychiatric treatment. The advantage would be that the person would now be able to do things as the majority of people would be doing. And since there are more heterosexual people out there, he/she has a much bigger pool now from which to choose his/her partner. Obviously this would be a better option for him/her unless he/she really likes to be the odd man out. BTW in my school ( a jesuit catholic school ), three students were suspended in Class 7 for indulging in homosexual activities in the school auditorium during a games break. Their parents were informed, they were severely reprimanded and all 3 of them suffered public humiliation and ended up as the subject of various gay jokes till they passed out of school. So I sorta grew up thinking homosexuality is a mental disease condition. Now, while I personally am not even remotely interested in anything homosexual, and even feel yucky when I think of it; I am fully okay with other people around me - colleagues, friends, family members being gay. Just because I am right-handed, I can't expect everyone else to be right-handed too, can I? Nish
Nish, in terms of gay people, think of it in terms of who they love. I think people focus on the 'sex' part of it and exclude that. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Nishant S wrote: The natural conclusion is that homosexuality is an unnatural state of mine :laugh: That Freud can be a real bitch. ;P pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
He wouldn't be the first... The tigress is here :-D