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Fermi's Paradox

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    Paul Watson
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    An interesting look into why we have not encountered other life yet. Part I is also available from Part II. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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    • P Paul Watson

      An interesting look into why we have not encountered other life yet. Part I is also available from Part II. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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      Giles
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Yep, I've heard of this. There have arguments to get around it, but some I'm not so sure of. After all, we have produced Star TRek and Star Wars, why have they not reached us yet in real life? Giles

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      • P Paul Watson

        An interesting look into why we have not encountered other life yet. Part I is also available from Part II. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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        rob bakes
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Maybe we should hope we never run into a mega advanced civilisation anytime soon. There's no evidence they'd treat us well. Our record is not the best with lesser lifeforms.

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        • P Paul Watson

          An interesting look into why we have not encountered other life yet. Part I is also available from Part II. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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          ColinDavies
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Yeah but cosmos exploration will be surely achieved by AI Von Neuron machines if we work on it. However with the sheer semi incomprehensible vastness of galactic dimensions, total cosmos exploration is limited to the deflation of said cosmos. -Wow what a mouthfull :-) Regardz Colin J Davies

          Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

          Click here for free technical assistance!

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          • P Paul Watson

            An interesting look into why we have not encountered other life yet. Part I is also available from Part II. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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            Nish Nishant
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Great link!!! Thank you, Paul Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain
            www.busterboy.org
            Nish is a BIG fan of Goran Ivanisevic

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            • P Paul Watson

              An interesting look into why we have not encountered other life yet. Part I is also available from Part II. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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              Stan Shannon
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html The simplest explanation of why we have not heard a peep from any other civilization - they ain't there. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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              • S Stan Shannon

                http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html The simplest explanation of why we have not heard a peep from any other civilization - they ain't there. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                Paul Watson
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Occam's Razor, I think most of us developers and software companies should take heed of it :-D You are such a cynic re: the whole alien existence idea :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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                • S Stan Shannon

                  http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html The simplest explanation of why we have not heard a peep from any other civilization - they ain't there. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                  David Wulff
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  The simplest explanation of why we have not heard a peep from any other civilization - they ain't there. I haven't heard a peep from God, therefore he ain't there. I have not been shot yet, therefore there are no guns. I have never seen an Indonesian, therefore Indonesia is not there. I have not died yet, therefore I an immortal. David Wulff, Founder of The BLA dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com [100.9977:Dave] New's flash - Bob caught in kitchen incident.

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                  • D David Wulff

                    The simplest explanation of why we have not heard a peep from any other civilization - they ain't there. I haven't heard a peep from God, therefore he ain't there. I have not been shot yet, therefore there are no guns. I have never seen an Indonesian, therefore Indonesia is not there. I have not died yet, therefore I an immortal. David Wulff, Founder of The BLA dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com [100.9977:Dave] New's flash - Bob caught in kitchen incident.

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                    Stan Shannon
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Sorry, but none of those follow from any application of Occam's Razor. :) "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                    • P Paul Watson

                      Occam's Razor, I think most of us developers and software companies should take heed of it :-D You are such a cynic re: the whole alien existence idea :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge

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                      Stan Shannon
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Nah, I'm not cynical. I'm would be perfectly happy to accept the existence of other intelligent species. But I think it would be a less interesting universe if we did encounter them. It will simply be much more fun to do the exploring ourselves than to simply be left with reading the "Encyclopedia Galatica" or something. I for one want to *do* the exploring not read about some older civilizations explorations. Therefore, I hope they don't exist. And I *do* believe that Occam's Razor does apply to the absence of clearly apparent evidence of any other civilization. BTW, a very good book relating to this subject is "Rare Earth: Why complex life is uncommon in the Universe" by Ward and Brwonlee. "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                      • S Stan Shannon

                        Sorry, but none of those follow from any application of Occam's Razor. :) "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                        David Wulff
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Sorry, but yes they do. You were 'applying' it to mean that because we have no proof of alien civilisations, that there aren't any. All of my examples fit in that same template. I'm told Guns and Indonesians exist, just like I'm told that God exists, and just like I'm told that I will die sooner or later, but I have no firsthand proof of this. I see churches and rifle clubs everywhere, but that doesn't mean God and Guns exist, as I also see alien museums and people who are just as fanatical about aliens as the strongest religious fanatic you could name. So, why is it true in one case and not in another? I can understand why the principle of simplicity is needed in order for us to be able to understand and define anything in the universe around us, but you would be naïve to rule out the possibility altogether - scientific principles and theories are constantly being modified as our understanding increases. They once believed the world to be flat. David Wulff, Founder of The BLA dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com [100.9977:Dave] New's flash - Bob caught in kitchen incident.

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                        • D David Wulff

                          Sorry, but yes they do. You were 'applying' it to mean that because we have no proof of alien civilisations, that there aren't any. All of my examples fit in that same template. I'm told Guns and Indonesians exist, just like I'm told that God exists, and just like I'm told that I will die sooner or later, but I have no firsthand proof of this. I see churches and rifle clubs everywhere, but that doesn't mean God and Guns exist, as I also see alien museums and people who are just as fanatical about aliens as the strongest religious fanatic you could name. So, why is it true in one case and not in another? I can understand why the principle of simplicity is needed in order for us to be able to understand and define anything in the universe around us, but you would be naïve to rule out the possibility altogether - scientific principles and theories are constantly being modified as our understanding increases. They once believed the world to be flat. David Wulff, Founder of The BLA dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com [100.9977:Dave] New's flash - Bob caught in kitchen incident.

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                          Stan Shannon
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          You couldn't be more abysmally (sp?) illogical. :-D I'm only saying that the "simplest" not the "only" explanation for the lack or readily apparent evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence is that they don't exist, at least in significant enough numbers for it to make a difference. And I'm certainly not saying that we should not look. Hell, I have SETI@home running on my machines at home. There are any number of plausible reasons why we don't see or hear them, but the most obvious is that they don't exist, at least any where near our galatic neighborhood. Logically, the larger the probability of intelligent life the larger the probability that at least some of them would be making some kind of "noise". As it is readily apparent that nothing that we can recognize as intelligent noise exist beyond our home world, we must proceed with the assumption that all those stars are belong to us.:) That the universe is ours to make of what we will. Your examples are invalid because: God is an example of one, not of many. There is no way you can simplify the arguments "God does not exist" vs. "God does exist". Occam's Razor simply does not apply. It is not an argument that can be settled by evidence one way or the other. If someone believe in God, than they believe it, end of argument. Guns and Indonesians? This is invalid because it would be somewhat simple to affirm that they do in fact exist. Just because you have not looked for the evidence does not invalidate their existence. You have built up no body of evidence against which Occam's Razor can even be applied. If you used every feasible method at your disposal to affirm their existence, and failed, *then* you might have an argument. Immortality? I'll leave that up to your testing methods. Please keep us infomred of your progress. Hmmm, I think I would have made a good Vulcan. :rose: "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                          • S Stan Shannon

                            You couldn't be more abysmally (sp?) illogical. :-D I'm only saying that the "simplest" not the "only" explanation for the lack or readily apparent evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence is that they don't exist, at least in significant enough numbers for it to make a difference. And I'm certainly not saying that we should not look. Hell, I have SETI@home running on my machines at home. There are any number of plausible reasons why we don't see or hear them, but the most obvious is that they don't exist, at least any where near our galatic neighborhood. Logically, the larger the probability of intelligent life the larger the probability that at least some of them would be making some kind of "noise". As it is readily apparent that nothing that we can recognize as intelligent noise exist beyond our home world, we must proceed with the assumption that all those stars are belong to us.:) That the universe is ours to make of what we will. Your examples are invalid because: God is an example of one, not of many. There is no way you can simplify the arguments "God does not exist" vs. "God does exist". Occam's Razor simply does not apply. It is not an argument that can be settled by evidence one way or the other. If someone believe in God, than they believe it, end of argument. Guns and Indonesians? This is invalid because it would be somewhat simple to affirm that they do in fact exist. Just because you have not looked for the evidence does not invalidate their existence. You have built up no body of evidence against which Occam's Razor can even be applied. If you used every feasible method at your disposal to affirm their existence, and failed, *then* you might have an argument. Immortality? I'll leave that up to your testing methods. Please keep us infomred of your progress. Hmmm, I think I would have made a good Vulcan. :rose: "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                            Mike Burston
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Stan, You're probably right to not try and apply Occam's Razor to a straight "god does exist" versus "god does not exist" proposition. However, Occam's razor is quite happily applied (very successfully, as far as I'm concerned) to a great many religious (christian) issues. The Flood of Noah, for example (no, I'm not trying to get that debate started again!). ----------------------------- "I leave no turn un-stoned." - John Simmons, Nov 6 2001 -----------------------------

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                            • S Stan Shannon

                              You couldn't be more abysmally (sp?) illogical. :-D I'm only saying that the "simplest" not the "only" explanation for the lack or readily apparent evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence is that they don't exist, at least in significant enough numbers for it to make a difference. And I'm certainly not saying that we should not look. Hell, I have SETI@home running on my machines at home. There are any number of plausible reasons why we don't see or hear them, but the most obvious is that they don't exist, at least any where near our galatic neighborhood. Logically, the larger the probability of intelligent life the larger the probability that at least some of them would be making some kind of "noise". As it is readily apparent that nothing that we can recognize as intelligent noise exist beyond our home world, we must proceed with the assumption that all those stars are belong to us.:) That the universe is ours to make of what we will. Your examples are invalid because: God is an example of one, not of many. There is no way you can simplify the arguments "God does not exist" vs. "God does exist". Occam's Razor simply does not apply. It is not an argument that can be settled by evidence one way or the other. If someone believe in God, than they believe it, end of argument. Guns and Indonesians? This is invalid because it would be somewhat simple to affirm that they do in fact exist. Just because you have not looked for the evidence does not invalidate their existence. You have built up no body of evidence against which Occam's Razor can even be applied. If you used every feasible method at your disposal to affirm their existence, and failed, *then* you might have an argument. Immortality? I'll leave that up to your testing methods. Please keep us infomred of your progress. Hmmm, I think I would have made a good Vulcan. :rose: "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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                              David Wulff
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              I stand down and bow my head to you, Stan. I almost managed to blag my way though yet another argument I knew nothing about. :-o ;) David Wulff, Founder of The BLA dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com [100.9977:Dave] New's flash - Bob caught in kitchen incident.

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                              • D David Wulff

                                I stand down and bow my head to you, Stan. I almost managed to blag my way though yet another argument I knew nothing about. :-o ;) David Wulff, Founder of The BLA dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com [100.9977:Dave] New's flash - Bob caught in kitchen incident.

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                                Stan Shannon
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Hey, if you spent more time hanging out with red neck,trailor trash, gun nuts in Oklahoma, you'd know this stuff. :-D "But, daddy, that was back in the hippie ages..." My twelve year old son - winning the argument. "Stan, you are an intelligent guy who responds in meaningful ways" Paul Watson 16/10/01

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