Multicultural question
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? Mass hysteria. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote:do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Western political cultural is definitely superior, with other aspects of culture, it is a matter of taste. Nevertheless most indeginues political systems are inherently democratic, colonialism screwed it all up. No matter how many times u take a dump, u can never accumulate more than your mother. West African proverb(a favorite of my mother).
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I don't know about chat rooms, but I think that policing the religious correctness of fellow Muslims is one of the chief pursuits of the more fanatical Muslims. Stan Shannon wrote: We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? In the West there is greater freedom (and perhaps greater inclination) to criticise authority figures. In less free societies, there is more criticism flowing from the top down and less flowing from the bottom up (though both sorts of criticism do exist in both types of society). Stan Shannon wrote: Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? I think people in the West believe themselves to be morally superior to people in Muslim countries and people in Muslim countries believe themselves to be morally superior to people in the West. John Carson "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? Sure we have forums that discuss such things. however,maybe we tend to focus our discussions towards our bad conditions caused by external reasons (Israeli attacks against palestine , US war against Iraq). this maybe because we believe that most of our problems are caused by some external forces.Also because declaring that you are against you government in many middle-east countries can cause you serious troubles.(note that many of these governments are strongly supported by western forces, including Saddam himself that USA supported for years) But when internet started to spread widely.. We can discuss these things more freely. and we do disdain actions that violates the Islamic religion.. we just wish that western countries that used to use our governors for its own benefit stop this .. and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way.
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Stan Shannon wrote: Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I don't know about chat rooms, but I think that policing the religious correctness of fellow Muslims is one of the chief pursuits of the more fanatical Muslims. Stan Shannon wrote: We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? In the West there is greater freedom (and perhaps greater inclination) to criticise authority figures. In less free societies, there is more criticism flowing from the top down and less flowing from the bottom up (though both sorts of criticism do exist in both types of society). Stan Shannon wrote: Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? I think people in the West believe themselves to be morally superior to people in Muslim countries and people in Muslim countries believe themselves to be morally superior to people in the West. John Carson "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell
John Carson wrote: I think people in the West believe themselves to be morally superior to people in Muslim countries and people in Muslim countries believe themselves to be morally superior to people in the West. this causes mutual miss-understanding. think what you want to think..But give yourself a chance to understamd why does the other side thinks like this .(this is to both sides :))
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
This is probably more of a thought about hspc's answer but still relevant. When I grew up in the days before the internet and electronic communication dissent within a society was spread through leaflets and small print newspapers or factional magazines. As far as I understand the situation the middle east is largely still in this area where posters and fly sheets are distributed, usually with the publishers remaining hidden and really the contents only being read by a few. Items like this are usually only published by strong believers in something hence if they do get around then it is only the more radical views of any side that get to be seen with the more silent majority being ignored. I'd say that just about everyone on this board is part of what if we had to resort to printing our own news sheets would be the silent majority sure some are more informed/passionate about certain subjects than others but if we had to go through the hassle of printing and distributing what we thought I think none or very few of us would. And lets be honest there are people on this site who are so diametrically opposed to others on this site that some of the arguments are just plain fun. I'd even go so far as to say that some times the research that goes into proving the slightest point can get just plain hysterical. Though you do realise you have to completely disagree with everything I say in this and hopefully come out with another classic on the lines of "insanely multicultural" as my girlfriend really liked that one. ;P pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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Stan Shannon wrote: Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? Sure we have forums that discuss such things. however,maybe we tend to focus our discussions towards our bad conditions caused by external reasons (Israeli attacks against palestine , US war against Iraq). this maybe because we believe that most of our problems are caused by some external forces.Also because declaring that you are against you government in many middle-east countries can cause you serious troubles.(note that many of these governments are strongly supported by western forces, including Saddam himself that USA supported for years) But when internet started to spread widely.. We can discuss these things more freely. and we do disdain actions that violates the Islamic religion.. we just wish that western countries that used to use our governors for its own benefit stop this .. and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way.
hspc wrote: and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way. Even for a democracy, Islamic laws are dreadful if they are forced on citizens. People need to be need to be left alone to make choices for themselves unless they interfere with the right of others .
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Stan Shannon wrote: Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? Sure we have forums that discuss such things. however,maybe we tend to focus our discussions towards our bad conditions caused by external reasons (Israeli attacks against palestine , US war against Iraq). this maybe because we believe that most of our problems are caused by some external forces.Also because declaring that you are against you government in many middle-east countries can cause you serious troubles.(note that many of these governments are strongly supported by western forces, including Saddam himself that USA supported for years) But when internet started to spread widely.. We can discuss these things more freely. and we do disdain actions that violates the Islamic religion.. we just wish that western countries that used to use our governors for its own benefit stop this .. and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way.
hspc wrote: and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way. Even in a democracy, Islamic laws are dreadful if they are forced on citizens. People need to be need to be left alone to make choices for themselves unless they interfere with the right of others .
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Stan Shannon wrote: Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? Mass hysteria. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc Clifton wrote: Mass hysteria. Cats and dogs, living together... -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Stan Shannon wrote: Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? Sure we have forums that discuss such things. however,maybe we tend to focus our discussions towards our bad conditions caused by external reasons (Israeli attacks against palestine , US war against Iraq). this maybe because we believe that most of our problems are caused by some external forces.Also because declaring that you are against you government in many middle-east countries can cause you serious troubles.(note that many of these governments are strongly supported by western forces, including Saddam himself that USA supported for years) But when internet started to spread widely.. We can discuss these things more freely. and we do disdain actions that violates the Islamic religion.. we just wish that western countries that used to use our governors for its own benefit stop this .. and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way.
hspc wrote: we just wish that western countries that used to use our governors for its own benefit stop this That will never happen, please be realistic. :-D
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hspc wrote: and let us choose the way to establish a real democracy our way .. not the american way. Even for a democracy, Islamic laws are dreadful if they are forced on citizens. People need to be need to be left alone to make choices for themselves unless they interfere with the right of others .
Anonymous wrote: Even for a democracy, Islamic laws are dreadful if they are forced on citizens. People need to be need to be left alone to make choices for themselves unless they interfere with the right of others . How can you tell ? Where do you get in formation about islam and how do you interpret them ? From Zionist media ?
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hspc wrote: we just wish that western countries that used to use our governors for its own benefit stop this That will never happen, please be realistic. :-D
Anonymously wrote: That will never happen, please be realistic. ;P ok..One day or another this will happen,, by their free will or by force..History tells theis :)
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Anonymous wrote: Even for a democracy, Islamic laws are dreadful if they are forced on citizens. People need to be need to be left alone to make choices for themselves unless they interfere with the right of others . How can you tell ? Where do you get in formation about islam and how do you interpret them ? From Zionist media ?
hspc wrote: Where do you get in formation about islam and how do you interpret them ? "Why I am Not a Muslim", by IBN WARRAQ for one. My own attempt at reading the Quaran for another, plus many more. The only democracy that exists in a predominately Muslim nation, Turkey, only gives lip service to freedom of religion from all that I have read. So, just how does that support the notion of democracy? Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy Me "Kerry is a girl's name." Conan O'Brian "I've spoken to many world leaders - they all look at me and say, you've got to win. I just can't tell you who they are." J.F.Kerry
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hspc wrote: Where do you get in formation about islam and how do you interpret them ? "Why I am Not a Muslim", by IBN WARRAQ for one. My own attempt at reading the Quaran for another, plus many more. The only democracy that exists in a predominately Muslim nation, Turkey, only gives lip service to freedom of religion from all that I have read. So, just how does that support the notion of democracy? Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy Me "Kerry is a girl's name." Conan O'Brian "I've spoken to many world leaders - they all look at me and say, you've got to win. I just can't tell you who they are." J.F.Kerry
give yourself another chance :) islamonline[^] introducing islam Mike Gaskey wrote: The only democracy that exists in a predominately Muslim nation, Turkey, only gives lip service to freedom of religion from all that I have read. So, just how does that support the notion of democracy? I don't consider turkey niether a democratic country nor an islamic country.
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Hi, I think democracy cannot work unless the people of society are educated in the sense of making rational choices. With most Arab countries the people have been so oppressed over the ages, they can use some outside help. I am not talking about creating a war, but help in setting up educational institutes, making people realize the potential and giving them a vision of a country with economic, social and cultural opportunities. Also, religion should be a personal thing for people. You cannot talk about a democracy and religion at the same time because one religious idea is not fit for everyone. People approach religion through their own experiences, faith and capacities. However, a democracy has to encompass all these different beliefs and make sure they co-exist. However, laws based on religious models will never work in a true democracy. People have to stop thinking in terms of Muslim countries or Christian countries or Buddhist countries etc. For things to really work out well, they all have to be able to co-exist side by side. This is the promise of a true democracy, not just in terms of religion but other aspects of society as well. My 2 cents. Best always, Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress
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Do muslims have chat rooms where they register their disdain and contempt for other muslims who violate Islamic values? I just wonder because the recent abuses of prisoners in Iraq seems to have provoked a response nearly equivalent to that of 9/11 itself among many westerners. We westerners seem to have a tendency to be hyper-critical of our own cultural failings. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I do wonder if other cultures display the same tendencies? Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? Or, are such protestations more a result of political orientation? "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? If there is an issue about superiority then it isn't just our opinion of ourself. obviously even the arabs think we are superior - otherwise why would an entire village of them hoot and holler and raise their fists just because they shot down 1 measelly helicopter? Why would they need to drag our bodies through the streets to cheering crowds? They don't behave that way when they kill each other. They must somehow feel that killing an American is a mighty thing to do and deserving of such a triumphant display.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
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Hi, I think democracy cannot work unless the people of society are educated in the sense of making rational choices. With most Arab countries the people have been so oppressed over the ages, they can use some outside help. I am not talking about creating a war, but help in setting up educational institutes, making people realize the potential and giving them a vision of a country with economic, social and cultural opportunities. Also, religion should be a personal thing for people. You cannot talk about a democracy and religion at the same time because one religious idea is not fit for everyone. People approach religion through their own experiences, faith and capacities. However, a democracy has to encompass all these different beliefs and make sure they co-exist. However, laws based on religious models will never work in a true democracy. People have to stop thinking in terms of Muslim countries or Christian countries or Buddhist countries etc. For things to really work out well, they all have to be able to co-exist side by side. This is the promise of a true democracy, not just in terms of religion but other aspects of society as well. My 2 cents. Best always, Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress
Well done. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy Me "Kerry is a girl's name." Conan O'Brian "I've spoken to many world leaders - they all look at me and say, you've got to win. I just can't tell you who they are." J.F.Kerry
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Hi, I think democracy cannot work unless the people of society are educated in the sense of making rational choices. With most Arab countries the people have been so oppressed over the ages, they can use some outside help. I am not talking about creating a war, but help in setting up educational institutes, making people realize the potential and giving them a vision of a country with economic, social and cultural opportunities. Also, religion should be a personal thing for people. You cannot talk about a democracy and religion at the same time because one religious idea is not fit for everyone. People approach religion through their own experiences, faith and capacities. However, a democracy has to encompass all these different beliefs and make sure they co-exist. However, laws based on religious models will never work in a true democracy. People have to stop thinking in terms of Muslim countries or Christian countries or Buddhist countries etc. For things to really work out well, they all have to be able to co-exist side by side. This is the promise of a true democracy, not just in terms of religion but other aspects of society as well. My 2 cents. Best always, Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress
Extremely well put! 5 :-D
Paul Lyons, CCPL
Certified Code Project Lurker -
Anonymous wrote: Even for a democracy, Islamic laws are dreadful if they are forced on citizens. People need to be need to be left alone to make choices for themselves unless they interfere with the right of others . How can you tell ? Where do you get in formation about islam and how do you interpret them ? From Zionist media ?
hspc wrote: Where do you get in formation about islam and how do you interpret them ? From Zionist media ? Doesn't Quran teach murder of the infidels, chopping hands of petty thieves, stoning adulterers and beheading apostates? http://freethoughts.org/wesslog/archives/2004_01.html[^]
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Stan Shannon wrote: Or, ironically, do we do it because we simply believe ourselves to be culturally superior to others and obligated therefore to remain morally aloof? If there is an issue about superiority then it isn't just our opinion of ourself. obviously even the arabs think we are superior - otherwise why would an entire village of them hoot and holler and raise their fists just because they shot down 1 measelly helicopter? Why would they need to drag our bodies through the streets to cheering crowds? They don't behave that way when they kill each other. They must somehow feel that killing an American is a mighty thing to do and deserving of such a triumphant display.
Glano perictu com sahni delorin!
So why do American / british soldiers celebrate their victory by abuses against prisoners ? Why nuding them ? isn't this because they believe that these prisoners have something valuable that they did not experience in their countries ? somehthing like dignity ?