Modern Pressure
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
I don't know what pressure is like in other fields. Although I'm slowly learning how hard it is to break into photography (except concert photography - typical, one of the few fields I don't enjoy...).
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyHe should go to University. If he feels he is falling behind now, in a few years it will feel more so because companies look for things like degrees especially for a 20 something. Last year when I was looking for a job a number of companies turned me away because I didn't have an "honours" degree (I quit with an ordinary degree in order to start my own company), which I think given my experience was unfair - but it was an employers market then and in that senario many employers look for the easiest thing to filter on when they receive a deluge of CVs. So no degree == bucket in those cases.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyDo you mean falling behind in grades, or just inundated with so much to do? What I've always been taught and have seen in my experience (though there's always exceptions) is that the expensive piece of paper known as a college degree is most useful for advancing through the ranks. I've known many developers that didn't finish college (or dropped out of a Uni and finished as a tech college) and got jobs, but they never really go anywhere from there (again, there's always exceptions). That really the only reason I did it. If he feels that his slipping grades (which seem to be what you mean) will hurt his career choices, you'd be right depending on what companies he would like to apply at. When I hire, I don't make a huge issue out of it (a little), but I know some companies do. It's not a very good indication of development ability (the difference between book smart and common-sense/"code-sense" smart) but they don't know you and have to use some rubric. I think becoming a part time student is a good idea. I did that for a while (mostly to get residency in Iowa to pay less tuition) and notice an improvement in grades (since I was always working about 30-50 hours a week even with a full load) both during and after that little break. Guess after 14 years of school (counting a little college), a little "break" helped. Just one suggestion.
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Do you mean falling behind in grades, or just inundated with so much to do? What I've always been taught and have seen in my experience (though there's always exceptions) is that the expensive piece of paper known as a college degree is most useful for advancing through the ranks. I've known many developers that didn't finish college (or dropped out of a Uni and finished as a tech college) and got jobs, but they never really go anywhere from there (again, there's always exceptions). That really the only reason I did it. If he feels that his slipping grades (which seem to be what you mean) will hurt his career choices, you'd be right depending on what companies he would like to apply at. When I hire, I don't make a huge issue out of it (a little), but I know some companies do. It's not a very good indication of development ability (the difference between book smart and common-sense/"code-sense" smart) but they don't know you and have to use some rubric. I think becoming a part time student is a good idea. I did that for a while (mostly to get residency in Iowa to pay less tuition) and notice an improvement in grades (since I was always working about 30-50 hours a week even with a full load) both during and after that little break. Guess after 14 years of school (counting a little college), a little "break" helped. Just one suggestion.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding - I didn't mean slipping grades. I mean, he feels that if he takes any time out he'll fall behind the career stages of his peers. Maybe lose his career and have to start from entry level all over again. It is possible that a lot of this comes from living in an area with incredible unemployment problems. Hopefully when he gets out he'll manage to relax a little more. I just find it sad that young people should feel so pressured, despite having lived through exactly the same thing myself, and finding it normal at the time. The degree is definitely on the cards, but he isn't prepared to take the 3 years out of work to do it. Fortunately a degree done part time still gets you the piece of paper :)
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyThe pressure really is horrendous, but I'm not sure whether it's actually any worse today than when I was faced with such decisions. I do know from 35 years of working experience that an education is a huge advantage, and getting one will never again be as easy as it is now for your friend. As one accumulates years, responsibilities and demands on free time increase steadily, and it never stops. Going back to school even a mere 10 years after going to work is an almost impossible task. Three years at Uni will not kill his chances for a good job - the jobs will be different, but they'll still be there. But skipping that 3 years may well be the ticket to a dead-end career, and early, unprofitable retirement. Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyAs an employer (based in the UK), I look for a degree for a number of reasons, but primarily, it's an indication of 1) intelligence 2) ability to work, on your own, and get things done 3) maturity (the whole leaving home, fending for yourself bit) He's only 19, for goodness sake. I started university when I was 18, and did a four year full time course. Leaving university with a decent degree at 22 will not harm his career chances one bit. Getting to 22 with three years work experience, but no degree would be much worse. Again, as an employer, experience is not that important, since the technology moves so fast. What's much more important is evidence of intelligence, committment and responsibility. (I can teach someone how to program in .NET, I can't teach someone to be intelligent).
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Sorry for the misunderstanding - I didn't mean slipping grades. I mean, he feels that if he takes any time out he'll fall behind the career stages of his peers. Maybe lose his career and have to start from entry level all over again. It is possible that a lot of this comes from living in an area with incredible unemployment problems. Hopefully when he gets out he'll manage to relax a little more. I just find it sad that young people should feel so pressured, despite having lived through exactly the same thing myself, and finding it normal at the time. The degree is definitely on the cards, but he isn't prepared to take the 3 years out of work to do it. Fortunately a degree done part time still gets you the piece of paper :)
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyRemember the old addage: "pressure turns coal into diamonds". Pressure can be a good thing, but you need good task management skills often times to deal with it. If he learns that, he should accel in the real world. He should keep in mind that the pressure he feels now might be nothing compared to the pressure he'll feel with large development tasks and not enough time to complete the work. It's good practice now, and often times I feel that that's one thing Unis try to help you prepare for - but it's something you must learn on your own. Before I went to college, I felt the same way - I had a decent job but I knew I didn't want to be stuck in a position like that all my life.
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I don't know what pressure is like in other fields. Although I'm slowly learning how hard it is to break into photography (except concert photography - typical, one of the few fields I don't enjoy...).
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyWell...so we are talking about a career in programming. I see it like this...anyone with certain basic skills can pick up a book and start off programming and in a year/two will be good at it. In the last decade millions over the world have done this ... some for fun...others for money...but the competition in this field is stiff only because there are so many of them. Regards, SRT
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As an employer (based in the UK), I look for a degree for a number of reasons, but primarily, it's an indication of 1) intelligence 2) ability to work, on your own, and get things done 3) maturity (the whole leaving home, fending for yourself bit) He's only 19, for goodness sake. I started university when I was 18, and did a four year full time course. Leaving university with a decent degree at 22 will not harm his career chances one bit. Getting to 22 with three years work experience, but no degree would be much worse. Again, as an employer, experience is not that important, since the technology moves so fast. What's much more important is evidence of intelligence, committment and responsibility. (I can teach someone how to program in .NET, I can't teach someone to be intelligent).
I'm also an empoyer, but one who understands that experience means a lot and grades are not a sign of intelligence (though I agree with your other points about getting a degree). I knew several people in my Com Sci department in college that had high GPA's (even a couple 4.0s). Impressive as that is, they couldn't solve a real-world problem if their life depended on it. Books can teach concepts, algorithms, and the like, but it takes experience and good development skills to be able to solve real-world problems in most situations. I feel even stronger about certifications. They show that you could study, shell out some money, and take a few tests; but many more times than not it's quite clear that job candidates (or people online) don't have the actual understanding to back up that certification. At least with a college education you should've gained some experience. I agree that he should stick with it and learn to deal with the pressure, because it can be even worse in the real world. It also (hopefully) teaches good task management skills. There were times I felt bogged down but I laid out my tasks, planned, and took things a couple tasks at a time. Graham Bradshaw wrote: I can teach someone how to program in .NET, I can't teach someone to be intelligent With regard to what I wrote, I would say something more along the lines of, "I can teach someone how to program in .NET, but I can't teach someone how to develop intelligently." That does take some experience and an aptitude for development, either natural or learned.
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyI think he needs to take a long hard at look at why he's pushing himself. Life doesn't end at 30 or anything. Stopping to smell the roses as it were is just as crucial (if not more so) as getting Uni behind him, and then pushing himself to succeed as an employee, etc... I've been quite a procrastinator, and do go through feelings of regret, but I've got a good life and much to be thankful for with great memories made along the way. I know people who constantly push, and some are a mess while others are happiest that way. What I'm trying to get at is, he should find his own pace. The wider variety of experiences he takes in now, the better will be his decisions later. BW The Biggest Loser
"And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun" -
I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyBased on my life experience and what a few others have said, I think taking the education now at 19 and finishing a degree in the next three years, is a very good approach. In terms of losing out on the technical side, that just doesn't happen. Technology changes so fast today that a great job today could be worthless as experience in three years time. And I've always found that learning new technologies while I'm working is just a part of your career development that should be a part of your employment. If your job doesn't allow you to do this, then you are in a dead end job and likely should be looking elsewhere already. Although sometimes I adhere to the attitude that says, If you are not meeting your goals, maybe the benchmark needs to be adjusted too! :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] I think people should be required to have an operator's permit to use the internet. John Simmons
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyWell, what I did when I was that age was go to school full-time (~8 or 9 months out of the year) and then do an internship at a tech company. I also had various part-time university jobs somewhat related to computer science (semi-teaching assistant, sysadmin for a small lab, etc.) I seem to have made out all right. :-D Internships are great, because they are kind of like long interviews. The intern gets to see how working in a corporate environment really is, and gets a foot in the door of that particular company. And of course, it looks good on resumes. "Fish and guests stink in three days." - Benjamin Franlkin
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I think he needs to take a long hard at look at why he's pushing himself. Life doesn't end at 30 or anything. Stopping to smell the roses as it were is just as crucial (if not more so) as getting Uni behind him, and then pushing himself to succeed as an employee, etc... I've been quite a procrastinator, and do go through feelings of regret, but I've got a good life and much to be thankful for with great memories made along the way. I know people who constantly push, and some are a mess while others are happiest that way. What I'm trying to get at is, he should find his own pace. The wider variety of experiences he takes in now, the better will be his decisions later. BW The Biggest Loser
"And then one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun"I couldn't agree with you more Brian. That was more the point of my post - that it's a shame young people feel so pressured that they can miss out on enjoying such a wonderful time in life.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
I couldn't agree with you more Brian. That was more the point of my post - that it's a shame young people feel so pressured that they can miss out on enjoying such a wonderful time in life.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyMegan Forbes wrote: they can miss out on enjoying such a wonderful time in life But don't forget, part of that "wonderful time" can be had at university... ... it isn't all studying!
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As an employer (based in the UK), I look for a degree for a number of reasons, but primarily, it's an indication of 1) intelligence 2) ability to work, on your own, and get things done 3) maturity (the whole leaving home, fending for yourself bit) He's only 19, for goodness sake. I started university when I was 18, and did a four year full time course. Leaving university with a decent degree at 22 will not harm his career chances one bit. Getting to 22 with three years work experience, but no degree would be much worse. Again, as an employer, experience is not that important, since the technology moves so fast. What's much more important is evidence of intelligence, committment and responsibility. (I can teach someone how to program in .NET, I can't teach someone to be intelligent).
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He should go to University. If he feels he is falling behind now, in a few years it will feel more so because companies look for things like degrees especially for a 20 something. Last year when I was looking for a job a number of companies turned me away because I didn't have an "honours" degree (I quit with an ordinary degree in order to start my own company), which I think given my experience was unfair - but it was an employers market then and in that senario many employers look for the easiest thing to filter on when they receive a deluge of CVs. So no degree == bucket in those cases.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
Depends... Maybe in large companies they want people with degrees, but the smaller places they usually hire those with experiense instead ;) When I'm hiring people I always looks at what they have done before and not their degrees. Self-taught people shows a lot about themself by being able to learn what they have by them self, IMHO. - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!" ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
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Depends... Maybe in large companies they want people with degrees, but the smaller places they usually hire those with experiense instead ;) When I'm hiring people I always looks at what they have done before and not their degrees. Self-taught people shows a lot about themself by being able to learn what they have by them self, IMHO. - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!" ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
Anders Molin wrote: Maybe in large companies they want people with degrees, but the smaller places they usually hire those with experiense instead I'm in a small company now. So your theory certainly works in my case.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyFWIW, I stopped attending college in my third year. At that point, I had already worked for both my colleges as a programmer and administrator, had off-college-summer experience as a programmer/developer, and even had some programming experience from high-school internships. Not having the degree has never cost me a job (at least, not to my knowledge :)). I would be on the watch out for people that are more concerned with a sheet of paper (and the likely debt to go along with it) than someone's demonstrable experience and potential. IMHO (and IME), a degree does not guarantee someone's technical competence no more than having a driver's license guarantees that someone will be a competent driver; it just indicates that they know how to operate a car. Likewise, the degree only gives you an idea that someone knows how to do something. The demonstrable experience is what proves it. I have held and (and do hold) positions above many of those with Master's Degrees. Having the real-world experience is what gives one the benefit of understanding that how things should be (i.e. as written and read in books) is often different from how things are. Respecting that difference what what is going to help you succeed. For example, would you hire someone for a non-entry-level position who told you: "Well, I have read the ARM cover-to-cover, browsed through several develoepr-related web sites, read a few magazines, etc. and I know how exceptions work, but I have never really tried them out." Would anyone in their right mind think any less of
Don BoxorScott Meyersif they just discovered that they lacked a classical education? My point: My colleges may have had some modern machines, but the books used (and the instructor's teachings and so-called ) tended to be a quite few years old. Once I realized that, I realized that I was wasting my time and left. 3+ year old technology and experience is not worth much in today's Software Development world. If I was your friend, who is smarter than I to realize this now rather than 3 years from now, I would try to get a programming-related job right now. If I could not get one, then I would go to college. Going to college beats being unemployed, and truth be told, I did learn some things while in school. (Just do not let anyone tell you that 4 years of Calculus and Diff-EQ are required to be a programmer! :)) Peace! -=- James (Sono