Competing against former employer?
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
I would see a real lawyer on this. If your idea and plan is good enough you need some professional advice. Saying that even if your target market is different from your ex-employers you might not be allowed to produce a similar product within a certain amount of time of quiting the company e.g. 6 months. My first job's contract included a clause which said I could not work in a competing or similar (similar was strictly defined) market for 6 months after I was let go, quit or was fired. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
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Read your employment agreement. Many companies require you to sign non-competition clauses that last for 6 months to a year. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Tim Smith wrote: Read your employment agreement Yup, that employment agreement thingy can be very nasty. I saw one that essentially controls everything an employee owns, even the ideas that are conceived during employment period, though not necessarily implemented. // Fazlul
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Read your employment agreement. Many companies require you to sign non-competition clauses that last for 6 months to a year. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
That is the clause I was trying to remember :) Thanks. In SA a lot of non-competition clauses have been found to be actually illegal as they are too broad or too far reaching. Especially in the IT and marketing industries. So check your clause to ensure it is legal before loosing heart. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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I would see a real lawyer on this. If your idea and plan is good enough you need some professional advice. Saying that even if your target market is different from your ex-employers you might not be allowed to produce a similar product within a certain amount of time of quiting the company e.g. 6 months. My first job's contract included a clause which said I could not work in a competing or similar (similar was strictly defined) market for 6 months after I was let go, quit or was fired. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
Paul Watson wrote: My first job's contract included a clause which said I could not work in a competing or similar (similar was strictly defined) market for 6 months after I was let go, quit or was fired. In Germany, this clause is legal only, if your employer pays you compensation money, otherwise you do not have to mind it. Regards Thomas
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That is the clause I was trying to remember :) Thanks. In SA a lot of non-competition clauses have been found to be actually illegal as they are too broad or too far reaching. Especially in the IT and marketing industries. So check your clause to ensure it is legal before loosing heart. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
yeah, there was a confidential information agreement but I never signed it. It seemed a little broad and they never followed up. However, there are some things I can't or shouldn't do, even though I really want to such as contacting fromer prospective customers. Not going to do it. I plan to meet with someone this week to discuss the legal aspects of what I can and can't do. However, if I can get by on the legal stuff, what other problems, issues, may arise. It's a huge market opportunity and I'd really like to pursue it. One of the reasons they hired me is that I was knowledgeable about the area prior to working for this company, it's just they actually created a sw app around it. Doesn't prior knowledge account for anything, I guess from a legal standpoint.
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
You also have to be careful about trade secrets. If you use any confidential, proprietary, or trade secret info in your own work, that could get you in trouble if the company finds out and can find proof that you learned the info there (for example, a product spec with your name on it). --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ #include "witty_sig.h" :love: your :bob: with :vegemite: and :beer:
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Paul Watson wrote: My first job's contract included a clause which said I could not work in a competing or similar (similar was strictly defined) market for 6 months after I was let go, quit or was fired. In Germany, this clause is legal only, if your employer pays you compensation money, otherwise you do not have to mind it. Regards Thomas
Disclaimer:
Because of heavy processing requirements, we are currently using some of your unused brain capacity for backup processing. Please ignore any hallucinations, voices or unusual dreams you may experience. Please avoid concentration-intensive tasks until further notice. Thank you.Thomas Freudenberg wrote: In Germany, this clause is legal only, if your employer pays you compensation money, otherwise you do not have to mind it. It's the same in Denmark, if your employer don't pay dor compensation, forget about it... - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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You also have to be careful about trade secrets. If you use any confidential, proprietary, or trade secret info in your own work, that could get you in trouble if the company finds out and can find proof that you learned the info there (for example, a product spec with your name on it). --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ #include "witty_sig.h" :love: your :bob: with :vegemite: and :beer:
Hey, Mike, I worked in the sales side of the organization, so most of the information I had access to was of a sales nature. I didn't work in a PM capacity. I really didn't have access to this type of infomation. Sales folks are pretty isolated for obvious concerns. The problem is: what consistutes confidential, proprietary or trade secret info? Anyway, I think I used to work with you at Symantec. Worked on the NDA (Desktop administrator product) back in the 90's.
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Hey, Mike, I worked in the sales side of the organization, so most of the information I had access to was of a sales nature. I didn't work in a PM capacity. I really didn't have access to this type of infomation. Sales folks are pretty isolated for obvious concerns. The problem is: what consistutes confidential, proprietary or trade secret info? Anyway, I think I used to work with you at Symantec. Worked on the NDA (Desktop administrator product) back in the 90's.
ez1 wrote: The problem is: what consistutes confidential, proprietary or trade secret info? As I understand it, it's any info that was on a "Symantec Confidential" document, along with details about the internal workings and design of the product. I only knew a couple of people on NDA, before it was sold to HP. One of them eventually came back to work at Symantec. :) --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ #include "witty_sig.h" :love: your :bob: with :vegemite: and :beer:
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
Did you ever see the source code at your work ? If you did, you'd be in total violation of your NDA to start developing something that competed with it. If you never saw anything that could help you write a competing product, then that may be fine. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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Thomas Freudenberg wrote: In Germany, this clause is legal only, if your employer pays you compensation money, otherwise you do not have to mind it. It's the same in Denmark, if your employer don't pay dor compensation, forget about it... - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
Anders Molin wrote: It's the same in Denmark, if your employer don't pay dor compensation, forget about it... It sounds way too sensible to apply in the US and UK then..:( Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
Do you see chances just going to your ex-exmployer and ask? Like the other replies I consider the problem chiefly a legal one, but you asked about "being guilty", not "being allowed". Either he says "I'll sue you", or "go ahead", or or perhaps you find a deal inbetween. Admittedly, the first leaves you (legally) in a worse position than before - but if this is the attitude of your former employer, I guess I'd just save the bucks for the lawyer one way or another. Peter
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Do you see chances just going to your ex-exmployer and ask? Like the other replies I consider the problem chiefly a legal one, but you asked about "being guilty", not "being allowed". Either he says "I'll sue you", or "go ahead", or or perhaps you find a deal inbetween. Admittedly, the first leaves you (legally) in a worse position than before - but if this is the attitude of your former employer, I guess I'd just save the bucks for the lawyer one way or another. Peter
Good point peterchen, Sometimes the solution is darn simple, And it never hurts to ask. if {he says yes} "great"; else //(he says no) {you can ask why, and get free legal advice from your boss); Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
You shouldn't feel too guilty (assuming you are in America) compitition is healthy. Don't make your product too similar to theirs or they will get supicious. -Steven Visit Ltpb.8m.com
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Hi all, Since reading the previous thread on starting our own biz, I thought this was kind of appropriate. I currently was let go from my employor a couple of months ago. I really liked their product and understand from a high level what their target market, competition, marketing programs, etc. (By the way, I was not a developer for the company and I'm only a hobbiest programmer. My background is product management) Anyway, the company targeted enterprise customers and was priced accordingly. I know there is a huge market for a similar type of product in the small to medium sized businesses at a lower price point. I however, feel somewhat guilty about begining a process to compete with my former employee (even though I would be targeting a different market segment) given what I learned while I was there. However it such a good opportunity. Should I feel guilty? Are there any issues I should be aware of? Thanks
I'd be really, really careful if I were you. The mere fact that you are posting this question in the Lounge shows pretty plainly that you think it's at the very least on the line. Further, if the company you worked for is of any kind of real size, they could simply slap you with a big lawsuit and effectively put you under. The big hallmark cases where non-competes are defeated are usually when two big companies fight over the right of an employee to do a certain kind of work. One pops to mind where Adobe and Microsoft got in a tussle because a dev that had access to the Windows source at one job became a dev lead for the Adobe Type Manager for Windows. A significant looming lawsuit will make your customers very uncomfortable, and will effectively prevent you from getting a bank financing loan, any outside investment, etc. Why don't you consider making your ex-employer an offer? I don't know the situation, but you could certainly approach them, tell them your interested in doing something and seeing if you can find some common ground. Maybe you can segment off a part of the business and focus on that. Just a thought. David http://www.dundas.com
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You also have to be careful about trade secrets. If you use any confidential, proprietary, or trade secret info in your own work, that could get you in trouble if the company finds out and can find proof that you learned the info there (for example, a product spec with your name on it). --Mike-- http://home.inreach.com/mdunn/ #include "witty_sig.h" :love: your :bob: with :vegemite: and :beer:
uming the legal bits are cool the best way to proceed is to find a customer who will work with you on the software / solution and let them spec out their requirements ... that way you are not putting your ideas into the product and therefore are not stealing trade secrets --- "every year we invent better idiot proof systems and every year they invent better idiots ... and the linux zealots still aren't being sterilized"
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Good point peterchen, Sometimes the solution is darn simple, And it never hurts to ask. if {he says yes} "great"; else //(he says no) {you can ask why, and get free legal advice from your boss); Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
Colin Davies wrote: if {he says yes} "great"; else //(he says no) {you can ask why, and get free legal advice from your boss); It's so refreshing to see pseudo-code used to solve everyday logic problems.... :) Simon Hey, it looks like you're writing a letter! Sonork ID 100.10024
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I'd be really, really careful if I were you. The mere fact that you are posting this question in the Lounge shows pretty plainly that you think it's at the very least on the line. Further, if the company you worked for is of any kind of real size, they could simply slap you with a big lawsuit and effectively put you under. The big hallmark cases where non-competes are defeated are usually when two big companies fight over the right of an employee to do a certain kind of work. One pops to mind where Adobe and Microsoft got in a tussle because a dev that had access to the Windows source at one job became a dev lead for the Adobe Type Manager for Windows. A significant looming lawsuit will make your customers very uncomfortable, and will effectively prevent you from getting a bank financing loan, any outside investment, etc. Why don't you consider making your ex-employer an offer? I don't know the situation, but you could certainly approach them, tell them your interested in doing something and seeing if you can find some common ground. Maybe you can segment off a part of the business and focus on that. Just a thought. David http://www.dundas.com
Thanks for your comments, appreciated. I guess I'm having a problem figuring out what is "on the line". I've been in the sw business for 12 years pretty much doing the same thing for different companies. So I have pretty good knowledge about the subject matter. However, the company hired me because of my knowledge in this area and to say I can't create a product around this knowledge sorta ticks me off, even though they hired me. Hope that makes sense!! (My knowledge strictly comes from an understanding of sales related issues, not the internal structure of how the product was put together. In other words, I never saw code, or had anything to do with the code.) Anyway, several people have suggested in this forum to approach my former employor (which sounds reasonable) however, I don't think anything good can come from it. They don't have anything to loose by telling me, hey don't compete. We eventually want to compete in this market. I guess I'm just going to talk to a lawyer and really find out what my options are first. Thanks though.