Will the US please stop Isreal!!!
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: I think just as Isreal was created by the allies after WWII without any input from jews themselves Xe, xe, xe...If you've got a degree of some kind you should sue your school. ;) Tomaž
Tomaž Štih wrote: mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: I think just as Isreal was created by the allies after WWII without any input from jews themselves You may be taking that much too literally. If the allies didn't turn a blindeye(most likey due to guilt for probably not doing enough to prevent the holocust)to what was going on the middle-east at that time Isreal would never have been created. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_17[^] One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. Sure there is the problem with suicide attacks_(which i only have a problem with because i know the intent of those Hamas bastards isn't noble, otherwise i consider it a means to an end. Not everyone beleives in protesting for their rights.)_, but Isreal's actions have been out of control. It seems they only listen to the US. What i don't understand is why they're opposed to having NATO move in. It is completely unacceptable to leave Isreal to decide how to resovle that mess, they're incapable of it. Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
NATO has offered to send in peacekeepers before. But of course, Israel wouldn't be able to control/own half of the West Bank then or keep building settlements... The tigress is here :-D
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: he fact is Isreal has no basis to make any demands regarding that land Oh but they do! Isn't God's words enough? It's the promised land for the religious, and rich for the industrious. There is no way in hell the Israelis will give anything to the Palestinians, regardless how solid their basis for not doing so is. I doubt the US will do anything either, since that would be political suicide. The jewish community, which would be pissed off by an action against Israel, is a too large voting base to be ignored. Had it not been so large, Israel would have been condemned a long time ago by hard core right wing religious nutcases. After all, not helping those of the faith who ultimately had Jesus killed, couldn't be a bad thing now, could it? mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: I think just as Isreal was created by the allies after WWII without any input from jews themselves Israel is the sacred kingdom which will be the only place still standing after armageddon. Of course they wanted it. In the meantime, waiting for armageddon, they can reap the rewards and riches of that land. In one way I think it's great that jews have Israel. Before that they did not have a country of their own. They've always been harassed by screwed up christians and other wildly fucked up people through history. But even when taking that century after century treatment into account, I don't see how it can justify the treatment of civilian palestinians (i.e., regular people just like you and me, who just want to carry on with their lives), which is borderline on the ghettos they were put in before and during the WW2. I believe the most appropriate action, and perhaps also the least "politically smart" action, is to lead the UN/NATO/EU coallition/whatever into there and put and end to what's happening. Shut down Knesset and the Palestinian counter part, because obviously they're not working. Force the leaders of both people into a room where they will sit until a) the end of the world, or b) they've come to a solution. Someone's gotta tell these idiots to get a fucking clue. This jabbing back and forth with suicide bombers and tanks the last decades haven't really led anywhere. -- Booohoo!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Had it not been so large, Israel would have been condemned a long time ago by hard core right wing religious nutcases. After all, not helping those of the faith who ultimately had Jesus killed, couldn't be a bad thing now, could it? That isn't so much the case anymore...recently jews have been strongly allied with the christian right(because they beliave they're helping god's children) here in the US. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: I think just as Isreal was created by the allies after WWII without any input from jews themselves You have no idea what you are talking about. Go read some history. mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: Let the allies decide on what is the most viable solution and implement it without any consensous from either side. Great idea. Attempt to impose a solution that no-one likes so they will try to undo it by (probably) violent means for the next century or so. You make the Bush Administration look sophisticated. John Carson "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote ... and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. - John F. Kennedy
John Carson wrote: You have no idea what you are talking about. Go read some history. here is some short history on the creation of the state of isreal. http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/israel.htm[^] I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_17[^] One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. Sure there is the problem with suicide attacks_(which i only have a problem with because i know the intent of those Hamas bastards isn't noble, otherwise i consider it a means to an end. Not everyone beleives in protesting for their rights.)_, but Isreal's actions have been out of control. It seems they only listen to the US. What i don't understand is why they're opposed to having NATO move in. It is completely unacceptable to leave Isreal to decide how to resovle that mess, they're incapable of it. Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
Will the Palenstinians please get rid of their corrupt leadership and stop smuggling weapons and explosives into their neighborhoods? Will Palestinians stop using women, children and even ambulances as shields and couriers for weapons? Will other Palestinians stop cheering them on? Will they stop blowing themselves and others up, including women and children and fellow Arabs? Will they stop smothering their daughters who are raped or have had sexual intercourse outside of marriage? Will they stop lynch mobs against other Palestinians merely accused of collaborating with Israel? Will the Palestinian Authority stop embezzling funds intended for humanitarian assistance? Will Europe stop appeasing the Palestinian leadership? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: I think just as Isreal was created by the allies after WWII without any input from jews themselves You have no idea what you are talking about. Go read some history. mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: Let the allies decide on what is the most viable solution and implement it without any consensous from either side. Great idea. Attempt to impose a solution that no-one likes so they will try to undo it by (probably) violent means for the next century or so. You make the Bush Administration look sophisticated. John Carson "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote ... and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. - John F. Kennedy
John Carson wrote: Great idea. Attempt to impose a solution that no-one likes so they will try to undo it by (probably) violent means for the next century or so. That conclusion is quite speculative. Isreal isn't a hopeless state, as a result they're likely to accept a reasonaly imposed peace plan. Palestanians on the other hand don't have the power to resist a UN peacekeeping action. Assuming ofcourse Hamas/Alaqsus bregade..are all entire desbanded, by force if necessary. John Carson wrote: You make the Bush Administration look sophisticated. I think most americans would appreciate my effort.:) I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
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John Carson wrote: Great idea. Attempt to impose a solution that no-one likes so they will try to undo it by (probably) violent means for the next century or so. That conclusion is quite speculative. Isreal isn't a hopeless state, as a result they're likely to accept a reasonaly imposed peace plan. Palestanians on the other hand don't have the power to resist a UN peacekeeping action. Assuming ofcourse Hamas/Alaqsus bregade..are all entire desbanded, by force if necessary. John Carson wrote: You make the Bush Administration look sophisticated. I think most americans would appreciate my effort.:) I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: That conclusion is quite speculative. On the contrary. I think it's a proper observation and extrapolation of what we see today. The Palestinians are today forced to live by the command of Israel, and see where that has led them. Force both and see what happens. Force should be applied to make both parts come up with a solution (with a little help from the outside, should they need it). -- Booohoo!
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: That conclusion is quite speculative. On the contrary. I think it's a proper observation and extrapolation of what we see today. The Palestinians are today forced to live by the command of Israel, and see where that has led them. Force both and see what happens. Force should be applied to make both parts come up with a solution (with a little help from the outside, should they need it). -- Booohoo!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: On the contrary. I think it's a proper observation and extrapolation of what we see today. The Palestinians are today forced to live by the command of Israel, and see where that has led them. Force both and see what happens. They point i am trying to make is that, the current state of isreal is less likely to engange in violence as a result of opposition to some reasonably imposed peace plan. Isreal is a state that has alot to lose by becoming a renegade against any such imposition, especially if the united states is involved. Again the solution has to be unbiasedly reasonable(not necessarily reasonable to any of the two parties,since they have their biases that clugup their reason.). I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_17[^] One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. Sure there is the problem with suicide attacks_(which i only have a problem with because i know the intent of those Hamas bastards isn't noble, otherwise i consider it a means to an end. Not everyone beleives in protesting for their rights.)_, but Isreal's actions have been out of control. It seems they only listen to the US. What i don't understand is why they're opposed to having NATO move in. It is completely unacceptable to leave Isreal to decide how to resovle that mess, they're incapable of it. Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. I think it is their history which compels them to want to control their own destiny. As much as one might disagree with the logic of placing a Jewish state in the Middle East, and as much as one might disagree with their tactics, the truth is that they probably have little choice. The notion that they could arrive at a peaceful settlement with people who are committed entirely to their destruction is rediculous. They must either fight or flee, they have no other choice. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
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Will the Palenstinians please get rid of their corrupt leadership and stop smuggling weapons and explosives into their neighborhoods? Will Palestinians stop using women, children and even ambulances as shields and couriers for weapons? Will other Palestinians stop cheering them on? Will they stop blowing themselves and others up, including women and children and fellow Arabs? Will they stop smothering their daughters who are raped or have had sexual intercourse outside of marriage? Will they stop lynch mobs against other Palestinians merely accused of collaborating with Israel? Will the Palestinian Authority stop embezzling funds intended for humanitarian assistance? Will Europe stop appeasing the Palestinian leadership? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I agree with you completely. The answers to your questions are 'no' and until all answers are 'yes' the violance will continue.
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. I think it is their history which compels them to want to control their own destiny. As much as one might disagree with the logic of placing a Jewish state in the Middle East, and as much as one might disagree with their tactics, the truth is that they probably have little choice. The notion that they could arrive at a peaceful settlement with people who are committed entirely to their destruction is rediculous. They must either fight or flee, they have no other choice. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: The notion that they could arrive at a peaceful settlement with people who are committed entirely to their destruction is rediculous. They must either fight or flee, they have no other choice. [sarcasm] I can see that you are totally on Israel's side because they had been the victims in the past. You probably don't mind if some Palestinians camp in your backyard because they lost their homeland even if you had nothing to do with their loss their homeland. As for the Palestinians, yes, they are committed to the destruction of Israel. They have no choice, either they fight or live a life with no dignity. Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. [/sarcasm]
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Stan Shannon wrote: The notion that they could arrive at a peaceful settlement with people who are committed entirely to their destruction is rediculous. They must either fight or flee, they have no other choice. [sarcasm] I can see that you are totally on Israel's side because they had been the victims in the past. You probably don't mind if some Palestinians camp in your backyard because they lost their homeland even if you had nothing to do with their loss their homeland. As for the Palestinians, yes, they are committed to the destruction of Israel. They have no choice, either they fight or live a life with no dignity. Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. [/sarcasm]
Actually thats complete bullshit. For the most part I have always been sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. I think creating a Jewish state in that region was an extrodinarily bad idea. I could care less if the Israelies are driven into the sea tommorow. However,none of that changes the reality of the situation. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the rest of the Muslim world who could otherwise care less about their plight. Israel has no choice but to fight if it wishes to survive. The Palestinians, in fact, have many choices but they do not choose wisely.
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Will the Palenstinians please get rid of their corrupt leadership and stop smuggling weapons and explosives into their neighborhoods? Will Palestinians stop using women, children and even ambulances as shields and couriers for weapons? Will other Palestinians stop cheering them on? Will they stop blowing themselves and others up, including women and children and fellow Arabs? Will they stop smothering their daughters who are raped or have had sexual intercourse outside of marriage? Will they stop lynch mobs against other Palestinians merely accused of collaborating with Israel? Will the Palestinian Authority stop embezzling funds intended for humanitarian assistance? Will Europe stop appeasing the Palestinian leadership? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Will the Palenstinians please get rid of their corrupt leadership and stop smuggling weapons and explosives into their neighborhoods? Will Palestinians stop using women, children and even ambulances as shields and couriers for weapons? Will other Palestinians stop cheering them on? Will they stop blowing themselves and others up, including women and children and fellow Arabs? Will they stop smothering their daughters who are raped or have had sexual intercourse outside of marriage? Will they stop lynch mobs against other Palestinians merely accused of collaborating with Israel? Will the Palestinian Authority stop embezzling funds intended for humanitarian assistance? Will Europe stop appeasing the Palestinian leadership? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Will the Israel them there land back? Joe Woodbury wrote: Will Europe stop appeasing the Palestinian leadership? Will the US stop giving away billions in military aid, to provide tanks and gunships so that they can kill people armed with stones? Joe Woodbury wrote: Will they stop smothering their daughters who are raped or have had sexual intercourse outside of marriage? Yes the palestinians have as bad a record you can get on Womens rights, but then so does the whole arab world from a western point of view, so why pick on them first. Your not going to get them to be as liberal as the west overnight. What do you expect, give them UN aid to start up their own porn industry? I think not. Asides from the tiresome retoric which can go back and forth for what seems like forever, this is a bit of a carrot and stick situation, but the carrot is nowhere to be seen. Its been promised, but its nowhere in sight. Using the stick alone is going to just make things worse. It party comes down to the fact that Bush will not look objectively at the problem as he needs the votes back home. Why should the US provide a carrot, well because its the price you pay for being rich, free and alive all at the same time. They are dirt poor, and when that happens people are easily infulenced by the exremists.
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Actually thats complete bullshit. For the most part I have always been sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. I think creating a Jewish state in that region was an extrodinarily bad idea. I could care less if the Israelies are driven into the sea tommorow. However,none of that changes the reality of the situation. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the rest of the Muslim world who could otherwise care less about their plight. Israel has no choice but to fight if it wishes to survive. The Palestinians, in fact, have many choices but they do not choose wisely.
Anonymous wrote: However,none of that changes the reality of the situation. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the rest of the Muslim world who could otherwise care less about their plight. The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. Anonymous wrote: Israel has no choice but to fight if it wishes to survive. The Palestinians, in fact, have many choices but they do not choose wisely. In other words, the Palestinians are too stupid, is that what you are saying?
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_17[^] One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. Sure there is the problem with suicide attacks_(which i only have a problem with because i know the intent of those Hamas bastards isn't noble, otherwise i consider it a means to an end. Not everyone beleives in protesting for their rights.)_, but Isreal's actions have been out of control. It seems they only listen to the US. What i don't understand is why they're opposed to having NATO move in. It is completely unacceptable to leave Isreal to decide how to resovle that mess, they're incapable of it. Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
One of the most chilling things I ever saw was a TV new article where an on-the-spot reporter in Israel was stopping people on the street and asking for their opinions about their country's retalliation againt Palestinian terrorist acts. One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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One of the most chilling things I ever saw was a TV new article where an on-the-spot reporter in Israel was stopping people on the street and asking for their opinions about their country's retalliation againt Palestinian terrorist acts. One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Were there some kind of KristallNacht[^] in Israel? I don't think so. That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (:omg:!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. Moreover, there are Israeli organizations trying to help the Palestinians (Bat Salom, Women's Coalition for Peace..). Is there the same thing on the other side? Cataloging people because of their ethnic origin is deeply racist, and is a negation of the choice any individual can make.
Mais donnez-moi aussi Le courage et la force et la foi Car vous êtes le seul à donner Ce que l'on ne peut obtenir que de soi.
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Stan Shannon wrote: The notion that they could arrive at a peaceful settlement with people who are committed entirely to their destruction is rediculous. They must either fight or flee, they have no other choice. [sarcasm] I can see that you are totally on Israel's side because they had been the victims in the past. You probably don't mind if some Palestinians camp in your backyard because they lost their homeland even if you had nothing to do with their loss their homeland. As for the Palestinians, yes, they are committed to the destruction of Israel. They have no choice, either they fight or live a life with no dignity. Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. [/sarcasm]
Small Dragon wrote: Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. BTW, there are some Indians left. What really irks me is today's total disregard for historical perspective. The Pal/Israeli conflict is a modern fight so modern sensibilities can be applied, but 150 or even 100 years ago, the attitudes of most people were totally different when it came to war. Only after the atrocities of WWII and better methods of information sharing have we become appalled at the civilian cost of war. Throughout history we see conquering nations completely destroy whole cities. Some would even destroy a city and spread salt over the land so no one could farm it and ever live there again. The past is the past. Learn from it, but don't hold our atrocities against us. No one is innocent.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Dr Herbie wrote: I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Were there some kind of KristallNacht[^] in Israel? I don't think so. That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (:omg:!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. Moreover, there are Israeli organizations trying to help the Palestinians (Bat Salom, Women's Coalition for Peace..). Is there the same thing on the other side? Cataloging people because of their ethnic origin is deeply racist, and is a negation of the choice any individual can make.
Mais donnez-moi aussi Le courage et la force et la foi Car vous êtes le seul à donner Ce que l'on ne peut obtenir que de soi.
KaЯl wrote: IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Maybe I should have been more plain: The parallels between (some) Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians and the (general) attitudes of Nazi Germany to the Jews are obvious -- both see an entire race as worth less than they are. KristallNacht was a major pogrom. Wikipedia[^] defines pogrom as: The Russian word pogrom ("погром") denotes a massive violent attack on people with simultaneous destroying of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). Historically the term has been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews and other ethnic minorities living in Europe. IMHO pogrom and genocide are NOT the same, genocide wants to rid the world of a race, while pogroms are more localised and shorter lived. There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. KaЯl wrote: That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. In pretty much all of these situations the protagonists are a minority -- it's the same in Ireland. Most of Belfast and the majority of Nothern Ireland have always been quite peaceful, there are just a few areas that you would want to avoid. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Small Dragon wrote: Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. BTW, there are some Indians left. What really irks me is today's total disregard for historical perspective. The Pal/Israeli conflict is a modern fight so modern sensibilities can be applied, but 150 or even 100 years ago, the attitudes of most people were totally different when it came to war. Only after the atrocities of WWII and better methods of information sharing have we become appalled at the civilian cost of war. Throughout history we see conquering nations completely destroy whole cities. Some would even destroy a city and spread salt over the land so no one could farm it and ever live there again. The past is the past. Learn from it, but don't hold our atrocities against us. No one is innocent.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Speaking of history course, the pathetic Thanksgiving fairy tale is still being taught to kids in public schools in USA. Jason Henderson wrote: No one is innocent. Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said.