Joel on Software
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Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My Articles -
Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesInteresting indeed, it would be damn amusing if Microsoft shot themselves in the foot by producing a well engineered project. Still, it is currently very difficult to produce a web applications that has as rich an interface as a native app. I guess ASP .NET application that deliver content to longhorn are going to rely on a platform lockin to be fully functional. This is unlikely to affect the likes of yahoo / google for a long while, but the temptation to use it for Intranet applications is going to be huge. Many Intranet applications rely on non portable technologies at the moment. My internet banking account has only recently started to support non IE browsers. Now, if only someone could write a set of browser independent controls, generated by XAML style markup that talk SOAP back to buisiness objects located on the server to minimise postaback and get it to run on Mono.. Shame I am too damn lazy/employed. Ryan
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Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesI found it an interesting read, although I felt he did not make his point really. So what if MS is giving up on the old API, when they have a superior API already available? He is right that many programs will remain as classic ASP or VB6, but I think that over time they will become the new COBOL. I do not think that it can be disputed that an experienced .NET developer will be more productive than a VB6 developer, and productivity is what drives the path that business software development takes. My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. He seems disillusioned with it, and attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management. Memory management is not why VB6 is more productive than C++; it is because of the API. The .NET API is far superior to the VB API, so I think that MS has bet on the correct horse.
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Interesting indeed, it would be damn amusing if Microsoft shot themselves in the foot by producing a well engineered project. Still, it is currently very difficult to produce a web applications that has as rich an interface as a native app. I guess ASP .NET application that deliver content to longhorn are going to rely on a platform lockin to be fully functional. This is unlikely to affect the likes of yahoo / google for a long while, but the temptation to use it for Intranet applications is going to be huge. Many Intranet applications rely on non portable technologies at the moment. My internet banking account has only recently started to support non IE browsers. Now, if only someone could write a set of browser independent controls, generated by XAML style markup that talk SOAP back to buisiness objects located on the server to minimise postaback and get it to run on Mono.. Shame I am too damn lazy/employed. Ryan
Now, if only someone could write a set of browser independent controls, generated by XAML style markup that talk SOAP back to buisiness objects located on the server to minimise postaback and get it to run on Mono.. Shame I am too damn lazy/employed. Are you sure this isn't being developed by someone already? If so, I would be very interested to hear about it. If not, do you know of any articles to get me started on my own? I have no knowledge of XAML, and only a little bit of experience with SOAP. I need a summer project. ok, maybe this would take longer than a summer :)
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Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesIts true what he says about the Empower ISV. For a mere $ 375 you can have 5 pc's up and running. You can literally start a small company with 5 developers for that amount !! "I believe I referred to her personality as a potential science exhibit." - Elaine, about Ellen, in "The Dog"
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I found it an interesting read, although I felt he did not make his point really. So what if MS is giving up on the old API, when they have a superior API already available? He is right that many programs will remain as classic ASP or VB6, but I think that over time they will become the new COBOL. I do not think that it can be disputed that an experienced .NET developer will be more productive than a VB6 developer, and productivity is what drives the path that business software development takes. My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. He seems disillusioned with it, and attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management. Memory management is not why VB6 is more productive than C++; it is because of the API. The .NET API is far superior to the VB API, so I think that MS has bet on the correct horse.
Steven Campbell wrote: My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. What gives you that impression? Steven Campbell wrote: attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management Have you had to track down memory leaks recently? - Nick Parker
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Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesWow! Really worth the read. Our company makes business software, we've traditionally always built them in Visual c++ and MFC. As of this year we have switched completely to c# for all new development and we are rigorously enforcing a policy of complete separate of UI code from business object code and offering all our apps with both a windows forms interface and an asp.net interface based on the same business object code. I'm really not looking forward to Avalon, while I think that Microsoft at some point had to draw a line and say "from here we start fresh" (the SimCity hack in the Windows OS code was *very* eye opening to say the least). The trouble is that Avalon on the heels of Winforms is just too much too digest and I'm a convert to .net. The bottom line for our company and our customers is that .net and c# is faster and cheaper to develop in and we can turn that into benefits for our customers. Enforcing strict separation of UI code and everything else gives us a lot of future-proofing. We'll offer a winforms client and a web client (and a mobile device client) and see where the chips fall. Excellent article, thanks for bringing it up.
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
Steven Campbell wrote: My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. What gives you that impression? Steven Campbell wrote: attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management Have you had to track down memory leaks recently? - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesNick Parker wrote: Have you had to track down memory leaks recently? Yeah, I agree with Joel on that point. However Steven does have a point in that the API for .net (for example) is so rich that it really is a major contributing factor in the time saved when programmin with it.
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose Bierce -
Nick Parker wrote: Have you had to track down memory leaks recently? Yeah, I agree with Joel on that point. However Steven does have a point in that the API for .net (for example) is so rich that it really is a major contributing factor in the time saved when programmin with it.
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. - Ambrose BierceThat is why the learning curve for .NET is not in any particular language syntax but the class library/framework itself. - Nick Parker
My Blog | My Articles -
Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My Articleswow!! he articulates brilliantly the subtle-back-of-my-mind feeling ive been having for the past 6 months or so ... i completely agree thats what ive been trying to see with linux ... i dont need a new computer every 2 yrs just to run enough os and tools to do my job ... linux will run fantastically well on a 5yr old machine unless im writing windows desktop apps i dont need windows
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I found it an interesting read, although I felt he did not make his point really. So what if MS is giving up on the old API, when they have a superior API already available? He is right that many programs will remain as classic ASP or VB6, but I think that over time they will become the new COBOL. I do not think that it can be disputed that an experienced .NET developer will be more productive than a VB6 developer, and productivity is what drives the path that business software development takes. My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. He seems disillusioned with it, and attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management. Memory management is not why VB6 is more productive than C++; it is because of the API. The .NET API is far superior to the VB API, so I think that MS has bet on the correct horse.
wow have u misunderstood the whole point of his article? users dont care what api is running the same as i dont care what my mechanic does to fix my car ... just make it run i have always said that .NOT presents a zero value proposition to most people and very many developers ... i get the feeling that longhorn is turning into an os/2 fiasco
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wow!! he articulates brilliantly the subtle-back-of-my-mind feeling ive been having for the past 6 months or so ... i completely agree thats what ive been trying to see with linux ... i dont need a new computer every 2 yrs just to run enough os and tools to do my job ... linux will run fantastically well on a 5yr old machine unless im writing windows desktop apps i dont need windows
l a u r e n wrote: wow!! Hey, I finally posted something that got a lauren wow-ism! ;) - Nick Parker
My Blog | My Articles -
I found it an interesting read, although I felt he did not make his point really. So what if MS is giving up on the old API, when they have a superior API already available? He is right that many programs will remain as classic ASP or VB6, but I think that over time they will become the new COBOL. I do not think that it can be disputed that an experienced .NET developer will be more productive than a VB6 developer, and productivity is what drives the path that business software development takes. My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. He seems disillusioned with it, and attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management. Memory management is not why VB6 is more productive than C++; it is because of the API. The .NET API is far superior to the VB API, so I think that MS has bet on the correct horse.
Steven Campbell wrote: I do not think that it can be disputed that an experienced .NET developer will be more productive than a VB6 developer, An experienced .NET developer will be more productive than a VB6 developer, but I can't take for granted that .NET makes programmers more productive. Sometimes does, sometimes doesn't, it depends. Steven Campbell wrote: Memory management is not why VB6 is more productive than C++ First, automatic memory management can be achieved easily with C++ as well. Second, VB6 developers are sometimes more productive than C++ developers - in many situations they are not. In my experience, productivity has little to do with a choice of programming language - it is all about development process, tools and libraries.
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Its true what he says about the Empower ISV. For a mere $ 375 you can have 5 pc's up and running. You can literally start a small company with 5 developers for that amount !! "I believe I referred to her personality as a potential science exhibit." - Elaine, about Ellen, in "The Dog"
>> You can literally start a small company with 5 developers Great, we really needed more of that attitude. "All it takes to produce a software product is..." Those ... are .... sorry i just puked, nasty words.
"No matter where you go, there your are." - Buckaroo Banzai
-pete
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Steven Campbell wrote: My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. What gives you that impression? Steven Campbell wrote: attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management Have you had to track down memory leaks recently? - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesMy impression on his understanding of object-oriented programming is based primarily on the fact that he dismisses it as a productivity booster. In reality, object oriented APIs have been a huge productivity boost. Compare using a COM object API to using a Win32 API. It adds a whole other dimension to the API. Even before .NET, we were realising the power of OO. IMO, if someone cannot grasp that, then they do not understand OO. Secondly, while Joel has experience in C++, and that certainly qualifies as a language with object-oriented features, it is hardly proof that he knows OO. Programming in C++, Joel may or may not have good OO experience. Given that Joel states that he has experience in VB6, ASP and C++, I doubt that he has had the chance to really grow in that area. Regarding memory leaks, yes I have tracked down a few. Yes, it took some time. But it was nothing compared to the time I spent in actual development, so it did not have any more effect on my productivity than other non-trivial bugs.
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My impression on his understanding of object-oriented programming is based primarily on the fact that he dismisses it as a productivity booster. In reality, object oriented APIs have been a huge productivity boost. Compare using a COM object API to using a Win32 API. It adds a whole other dimension to the API. Even before .NET, we were realising the power of OO. IMO, if someone cannot grasp that, then they do not understand OO. Secondly, while Joel has experience in C++, and that certainly qualifies as a language with object-oriented features, it is hardly proof that he knows OO. Programming in C++, Joel may or may not have good OO experience. Given that Joel states that he has experience in VB6, ASP and C++, I doubt that he has had the chance to really grow in that area. Regarding memory leaks, yes I have tracked down a few. Yes, it took some time. But it was nothing compared to the time I spent in actual development, so it did not have any more effect on my productivity than other non-trivial bugs.
Steven Campbell wrote: I doubt that he has had the chance to really grow in that area. Joel used to work at Microsoft, I believe he has had more than the chance to grow in that area. :) - Nick Parker
My Blog | My Articles -
Steven Campbell wrote: I doubt that he has had the chance to really grow in that area. Joel used to work at Microsoft, I believe he has had more than the chance to grow in that area. :) - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesNick Parker wrote: Joel used to work at Microsoft, I believe he has had more than the chance to grow in that area. MS develops in more than just C++ ya know. A lot of the lower-level stuff is still in C. And, for that matter, he could've been doing mainly VB6 development for MS. Just because someone works for MS doesn't guarantee they know OOP well. Jeremy Falcon
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Steven Campbell wrote: My overall impression is that Joel does not understand object-oriented programming. What gives you that impression? Steven Campbell wrote: attributes productivity advances primarily to memory management Have you had to track down memory leaks recently? - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesNick Parker wrote: What gives you that impression? For one, he thinks .NET is an "upgrade" for VB6. Not true at all. VB is constrained by OLE automation, .NET is not and is, in some ways, lower level than the VB VM. And of course there's P/Invoke. :) And 2, 3, or 4 languages for .NET? I don't think he understands the CLI at all. Maybe saying he doesn't understand OOP is wrong, but I certainly would agree he doesn't understand .NET as well as he should before spouting off such rants (though I did find some of his arguments well put, and often amusing the way they were written).
Microsoft MVP, Visual C# My Articles
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Interesting read, rather lengthy but interesting none the less. What is your opinion? How Microsoft Lost the API War[^] - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesHis best point was that, in most cases, people *don't upgrade* their OS. If their computer works fine, what point is there in upgrading? Unlike what some people in this thread have said, and as much as we hate to admit it, development is driven by what customers want. I could be a billion times more productive writing some cool GUI in Avalon, but if nobody will buy it because it only runs on Longhorn and nobody has it, what good is that? ... though I disliked his stick-shift analogy. Once you've driven a stick-shift for a while, it's just as easy to drive as an automatic. And they usually cost less, and certainly are cheaper to work on, and since they weigh less, get better gas mileage. "Fish and guests stink in three days." - Benjamin Franlkin
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My impression on his understanding of object-oriented programming is based primarily on the fact that he dismisses it as a productivity booster. In reality, object oriented APIs have been a huge productivity boost. Compare using a COM object API to using a Win32 API. It adds a whole other dimension to the API. Even before .NET, we were realising the power of OO. IMO, if someone cannot grasp that, then they do not understand OO. Secondly, while Joel has experience in C++, and that certainly qualifies as a language with object-oriented features, it is hardly proof that he knows OO. Programming in C++, Joel may or may not have good OO experience. Given that Joel states that he has experience in VB6, ASP and C++, I doubt that he has had the chance to really grow in that area. Regarding memory leaks, yes I have tracked down a few. Yes, it took some time. But it was nothing compared to the time I spent in actual development, so it did not have any more effect on my productivity than other non-trivial bugs.
Steven Campbell wrote: Regarding memory leaks, yes I have tracked down a few. Yes, it took some time. But it was nothing compared to the time I spent in actual development, so it did not have any more effect on my productivity than other non-trivial bugs. I agree. If you can do something in VB in one line of code what would require ten in C/C++ it's not because of automatic memory management. It's because VB's class library has always been more abstract than, say MFC's. But that's Microsoft's fault for not making MFC much more than a simple wrapper around the Win32 API. Regards, Alvaro
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.