CP Ads - Missing point?
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I have read through a ton of messages about the new targeted Google ads in articles. There seems to be a missing point, although it was mentioned vaguely in some posts. Some feel that CP is earning from the author's work and they want a piece of the pie and others simply feel that site should be free of ads since they do not like them and even suggest methods to block them. Suggestions have run from making a subscription site to get rid of the ads to allowing authors to pay fees to keep ads off their articles. Another suggestion was to allow donations to offset the ads. Point is that CP requires revenue as it is a business. It is really that simple. Who will run a business if they have to pay to run the business so that everyone can use its services for free? While CP was built by the articles that authors have posted, CP provides a place where those articles can be posted and shared. Beyond that, it provides a community stronger than any other developer site I know. Does it really stop there? Might I suggest that many authors post articles for one of the following reasons: 1) Excited about programming and generally wants to share their work with others 2) Wants the praise and respect of other developers 3) Allows them to showcase their work for possible contract work or job placement 4) To promote their services, products or company in general 5) To have others help them debug and/or improve their code at no cost to them 6) To win prizes from CP contests (that must be a small group :) ) I would imagine there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. It is not that CP is making money from you work, it is what benefits does CP provide to you? Think how many people receive benefit by access to articles or the message bases for help. Or how about the general geekdom fellowship? What about all of us that have links in our signatures to promote ourselves or our businesses, CP does not forbid them. The plain simple fact is that almost everyone receives benefit from CP or they would not be here. The question is, does the benefit you receive outweigh the effort you have spent, such as posting articles, helping others, or simply clicking on some ads that are of interest to you? I would say that most people posting articles here have received more benefits in one form or another than they would have received had they sold those articles to a company. The missing point is simply that we all benefit from CP and CP should be a flourishing business. Does not
Hi Rocky, Nice post. I think it isn't the whole picture though. For me, it is unethical to use my article's content to generate targetted advertisement. This isn't an issue of how much time I've put in writing articles, what I've gotten out of them, or whether CP can pay its bills. For me, it is first a question of ethics. I find the google ads unethical and offensive. If we could approach the problem of funding CP by looking at ethics first, instead of last (or never), I think we could find better solutions, many of which have already been repeatedly suggested over the years. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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Good post Rocky. I'd like to add something here that I found interesting when reading the posts and I cannot stress enough that I don't mean to offend anyone. A few authors said that they were going to remove their articles from CP. I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership :-) Nish
My take on gmail - Is gmail just a fashion statement? My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: A few authors said that they were going to remove their articles from CP. I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership You know, there comes a time when what one believes in is more important than any material benefits coming from compromising those beliefs. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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Nishant S wrote: A few authors said that they were going to remove their articles from CP. I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership You know, there comes a time when what one believes in is more important than any material benefits coming from compromising those beliefs. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc Clifton wrote: You know, there comes a time when what one believes in is more important than any material benefits coming from compromising those beliefs. Marc As an author I am sure you'll appreciate my view point that however much you enjoy writing an article, there is a huge amount of satisfaction to be obtained from the knowledge that 1000s of people are reading your article. And CP helps authors get readership in a massive way. If an author registers a web site and wrote articles there, how many people do you think would come there? CP gives the author an immediate viewership and what's more important is that most of this viewership are fellow MS-technology developers who will give you the best kind of feedback you can get on the web. And to say that an author will want to remove his articles because he is mentally against putting contextual ads on his article is somehow ungrateful sounding in my opinion. An author gets a lot out of CP, so why can't CP get something back from his/her articles? Nish
My take on gmail - Is gmail just a fashion statement? My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Marc Clifton wrote: You know, there comes a time when what one believes in is more important than any material benefits coming from compromising those beliefs. Marc As an author I am sure you'll appreciate my view point that however much you enjoy writing an article, there is a huge amount of satisfaction to be obtained from the knowledge that 1000s of people are reading your article. And CP helps authors get readership in a massive way. If an author registers a web site and wrote articles there, how many people do you think would come there? CP gives the author an immediate viewership and what's more important is that most of this viewership are fellow MS-technology developers who will give you the best kind of feedback you can get on the web. And to say that an author will want to remove his articles because he is mentally against putting contextual ads on his article is somehow ungrateful sounding in my opinion. An author gets a lot out of CP, so why can't CP get something back from his/her articles? Nish
My take on gmail - Is gmail just a fashion statement? My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: And to say that an author will want to remove his articles because he is mentally against putting contextual ads on his article is somehow ungrateful sounding in my opinion. Well, here's one of many possible responses. When I first wrote articles for CP, there were no targetted ads. Now, Chris has made a change that causes me to reconsider whether I want my articles on CP. Ungrateful? I'm incredibly grateful for CP, both as an author and as a user. But I really can't abide with this idea of targetted ads. It crosses the line for me. Some people don't have a problem with it, and that's fine too. Nishant S wrote: An author gets a lot out of CP, so why can't CP get something back from his/her articles? As I've said before, show me the donate button and I'll click on it. And what CP gets back is, by being the #1 coder site for its genre, it attracts ads from people like Microsoft as a result of the quantity and quality of the articles posted there. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
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Nishant S wrote: I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership You may be surprised that a few at least choose not to believe that and stand by their principles on not helping others make money. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: You may be surprised that a few at least choose not to believe that and stand by their principles on not helping others make money. You got it all wrong ;) It has nothing to do with "not want others to make money", its about adds in all the article pages, even adds that adapt to the words in the articles. For me it was just too much, and I think that CP turns into CodeGuru, as one big flashing add :(( And I do totally understand people who have some sort of business, say making software firewalls, that show some of their technologies in some articles and dont want links to the competition there. And yes yes yes, I know that the article is not what they sell, but if they did not have that business, we would not be able to read the articles. - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!" ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application [^]
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You make some good points. The ads don't really bother me, apart from the fact that the google ads look tacky and don't fit in with the colour scheme. There is the also implied endorsement of the products advertised by the writer of the article. This probably be rectified by making the ads look a little more like that rest of the CP ads. And maybe a statement above the box, saying the author of the article in no way endorses the products being advertised. Rocky Moore wrote: The missing point is simply that we all benefit from CP and CP should be a flourishing business. Does not matter if their page is 90% ads, if that is what it will take to keep CP going, then great! I don't like the sound of that at all. 90% ads will turn us into CodeGuru. Whilst I certainly have more faith in Chris than I do the bunch of *expeletive deleted* behind CodeGuru, the day there are more ads than content is the day that CodeProject dies. Rocky Moore wrote: People have talked about donations to CP to make sure it continues to grow. Can you consider you time to be a donation to help CP grow? That can be in the form of articles, posting messages, promoting CP or simply browsing around their advertisers and selecting a few that are of interest to you. Do we need a donation button? How about we just donate a little time in one form or another? As somebody who couldn't write a good article to save his life, that avenue is closed to me. Whilst I can be of a little help in the forums, that isn't going to keep CP running. I evanglise CP as much as I can. In job interviews, two of the questions I ask are "Do you have an MSDN subscription and what does your team think of CodeProject" Currently when purchasing from the CP shop, you can get CP supporter status. All I'm asking is that we are given the opportunity to purchase that status as a seperate item. CP is as useful to me as the MSDN library, so I would have no qualms of paying $100 a year to support CP and help keep it running. I'm sure others feel that way too. Donating would also be a great idea, I'd be quiet happy to ocassionally donate some spare cash to the cause of keeping CodeProject running. Michael CP Blog [
Michael P Butler wrote: Currently when purchasing from the CP shop, you can get CP supporter status. All I'm asking is that we are given the opportunity to purchase that status as a seperate item. I've suggested that on numerous occasions. There are other simple money making methods that could be used as well. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Nishant S wrote: And to say that an author will want to remove his articles because he is mentally against putting contextual ads on his article is somehow ungrateful sounding in my opinion. Well, here's one of many possible responses. When I first wrote articles for CP, there were no targetted ads. Now, Chris has made a change that causes me to reconsider whether I want my articles on CP. Ungrateful? I'm incredibly grateful for CP, both as an author and as a user. But I really can't abide with this idea of targetted ads. It crosses the line for me. Some people don't have a problem with it, and that's fine too. Nishant S wrote: An author gets a lot out of CP, so why can't CP get something back from his/her articles? As I've said before, show me the donate button and I'll click on it. And what CP gets back is, by being the #1 coder site for its genre, it attracts ads from people like Microsoft as a result of the quantity and quality of the articles posted there. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc Clifton wrote: But I really can't abide with this idea of targetted ads. It crosses the line for me. I've noticed that you've mentioned that you think this whole "targetted ads" thing is unethical in your opinion. Could you make it clearer how exactly it is unethical? [Perhaps you might have done so alreday in some other post that I've missed, if so apologies] Is it CP that's being unethical by putting Google ads on articles? Or is it the Google ads system that you think is unethical? What is unethical about showing an ad that is somehow connected to the core topic of the article that a user is reading? Nish p.s. I am seriously interested in knowing the reasons for so many people getting so angry. I am not even remotely thinking of a debate.
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Michael P Butler wrote: Currently when purchasing from the CP shop, you can get CP supporter status. All I'm asking is that we are given the opportunity to purchase that status as a seperate item. I've suggested that on numerous occasions. There are other simple money making methods that could be used as well. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Hi Rocky, Nice post. I think it isn't the whole picture though. For me, it is unethical to use my article's content to generate targetted advertisement. This isn't an issue of how much time I've put in writing articles, what I've gotten out of them, or whether CP can pay its bills. For me, it is first a question of ethics. I find the google ads unethical and offensive. If we could approach the problem of funding CP by looking at ethics first, instead of last (or never), I think we could find better solutions, many of which have already been repeatedly suggested over the years. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc, I appreciate you not wanting your articles making money for those companies that you have not personally endorsed. But that money, i believe, comes second to CodeProject getting money to keep the site up and running. The reason why I believe it comes second, is that in effect, CodeProject is allowing you to advertise your work and therefore you profit from the free service they provide you. So explain to me the difference between you benefiting from CodeProject, and CodeProject benefiting from you? Which therefore means you benefit, by keeping the site up. I think it's widely agreed that code and articles written on this site have benefitted many people. Not only people, but companies who have used this knowledge to incorporate into their own commercial products. So here, you articles, code, and ideas are being used for financial benefits behind your back. Is that ok, as long as it is behind your back and you don't see it ?? p.s. I think your articles are great and seriously hope you do not remove them from the site. Jubjub
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I have read through a ton of messages about the new targeted Google ads in articles. There seems to be a missing point, although it was mentioned vaguely in some posts. Some feel that CP is earning from the author's work and they want a piece of the pie and others simply feel that site should be free of ads since they do not like them and even suggest methods to block them. Suggestions have run from making a subscription site to get rid of the ads to allowing authors to pay fees to keep ads off their articles. Another suggestion was to allow donations to offset the ads. Point is that CP requires revenue as it is a business. It is really that simple. Who will run a business if they have to pay to run the business so that everyone can use its services for free? While CP was built by the articles that authors have posted, CP provides a place where those articles can be posted and shared. Beyond that, it provides a community stronger than any other developer site I know. Does it really stop there? Might I suggest that many authors post articles for one of the following reasons: 1) Excited about programming and generally wants to share their work with others 2) Wants the praise and respect of other developers 3) Allows them to showcase their work for possible contract work or job placement 4) To promote their services, products or company in general 5) To have others help them debug and/or improve their code at no cost to them 6) To win prizes from CP contests (that must be a small group :) ) I would imagine there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. It is not that CP is making money from you work, it is what benefits does CP provide to you? Think how many people receive benefit by access to articles or the message bases for help. Or how about the general geekdom fellowship? What about all of us that have links in our signatures to promote ourselves or our businesses, CP does not forbid them. The plain simple fact is that almost everyone receives benefit from CP or they would not be here. The question is, does the benefit you receive outweigh the effort you have spent, such as posting articles, helping others, or simply clicking on some ads that are of interest to you? I would say that most people posting articles here have received more benefits in one form or another than they would have received had they sold those articles to a company. The missing point is simply that we all benefit from CP and CP should be a flourishing business. Does not
In some cases, targeted ads can actually help articles as the author is giving free working solution with source for the products that are being advertised. :) //Start of joke Never comment ur code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand !!! //End of joke
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One way to appease some of the article authors who are upset about the google ads would be to offer a bounty from the advertising revenue to the top rated articles each month, or to the competition winners.
I don't think the amount received would make sense at all. How much do you xpect to get in a month? Flipping burgers is probably ten times more economical (plus you meet a lot of fat people and feel better about yourself) My most recent article would be absolutely uneconomical from a commercial standpoint. Getting another $10 for it would mean absolutely no motiviation at all.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
sighist || Agile Programming | doxygen -
Nishant S wrote: A few authors said that they were going to remove their articles from CP. I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership You know, there comes a time when what one believes in is more important than any material benefits coming from compromising those beliefs. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
I understand you sticking to your beliefs Marc. It would be a sad day if it comes to loosing your valuable work however.:(( Ant. I'm hard, yet soft.
I'm coloured, yet clear.
I'm fuity and sweet.
I'm jelly, what am I? Muse on it further, I shall return! - David Williams (Little Britain) -
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: You may be surprised that a few at least choose not to believe that and stand by their principles on not helping others make money. You got it all wrong ;) It has nothing to do with "not want others to make money", its about adds in all the article pages, even adds that adapt to the words in the articles. For me it was just too much, and I think that CP turns into CodeGuru, as one big flashing add :(( And I do totally understand people who have some sort of business, say making software firewalls, that show some of their technologies in some articles and dont want links to the competition there. And yes yes yes, I know that the article is not what they sell, but if they did not have that business, we would not be able to read the articles. - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!" ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application [^]
Anders Molin wrote: You got it all wrong I do not think so. Everything you say supports my statement. May be you are taking to fine of an interpretation though. Anders Molin wrote: And I do totally understand people who have some sort of business, say making software firewalls, that show some of their technologies in some articles and dont want links to the competition there. Understand and agree with what we want. I want to be paid to dollar and have all my resources given with no cost. Sorry it does not work that way. CP and Chris have to support themselves that is a fact of life. A few adds is a small price to pay for it. Chris has suggested a fee system that would allow companies to not have adds on their pages. This sounds fine to me. Anders Molin wrote: For me it was just too much, and I think that CP turns into CodeGuru, as one big flashing add CP is a long way from what CodeGuru became. I would gladly also support a contibution option. I do not want the only option to be a company funded and biased site and I see that as about the only option your path leads to. Actually I find the google adds preferable to the banners as they are rather bland and not all flashy, easy for me to ignore when I choose so. I also do not find tailored adds bad. It may make me aware of some option I had missed. So a little box at the end of the article, that I only even see if I choose to read the whole article, with some info I find as acceptable as a big flashy thing ahead of the article. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Good post Rocky. I'd like to add something here that I found interesting when reading the posts and I cannot stress enough that I don't mean to offend anyone. A few authors said that they were going to remove their articles from CP. I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership :-) Nish
My take on gmail - Is gmail just a fashion statement? My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: A few authors said that they were going to remove their articles from CP. I seriously doubt if any of those people would dare to do that. If they did so, then they'd lose 99% of their viewership As a CP employee, you are not supposed to talk like that. You probably already offended those authors. Doesn't CP offer "sensitivity training" to its employees? :-D
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I have read through a ton of messages about the new targeted Google ads in articles. There seems to be a missing point, although it was mentioned vaguely in some posts. Some feel that CP is earning from the author's work and they want a piece of the pie and others simply feel that site should be free of ads since they do not like them and even suggest methods to block them. Suggestions have run from making a subscription site to get rid of the ads to allowing authors to pay fees to keep ads off their articles. Another suggestion was to allow donations to offset the ads. Point is that CP requires revenue as it is a business. It is really that simple. Who will run a business if they have to pay to run the business so that everyone can use its services for free? While CP was built by the articles that authors have posted, CP provides a place where those articles can be posted and shared. Beyond that, it provides a community stronger than any other developer site I know. Does it really stop there? Might I suggest that many authors post articles for one of the following reasons: 1) Excited about programming and generally wants to share their work with others 2) Wants the praise and respect of other developers 3) Allows them to showcase their work for possible contract work or job placement 4) To promote their services, products or company in general 5) To have others help them debug and/or improve their code at no cost to them 6) To win prizes from CP contests (that must be a small group :) ) I would imagine there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. It is not that CP is making money from you work, it is what benefits does CP provide to you? Think how many people receive benefit by access to articles or the message bases for help. Or how about the general geekdom fellowship? What about all of us that have links in our signatures to promote ourselves or our businesses, CP does not forbid them. The plain simple fact is that almost everyone receives benefit from CP or they would not be here. The question is, does the benefit you receive outweigh the effort you have spent, such as posting articles, helping others, or simply clicking on some ads that are of interest to you? I would say that most people posting articles here have received more benefits in one form or another than they would have received had they sold those articles to a company. The missing point is simply that we all benefit from CP and CP should be a flourishing business. Does not
I just want to you remind you all that CodeProject isn't the only one with bills. You think people like Marc and I live free as well? What it sounds like to me, is that most want us to be grateful for some website allowing us the privilege to take our time and write an article. Why do to think that when someone shares code that eventually becomes commercial quality they pull their articles (think Kirk Stowell)? For some, (not all) it's a training ground to help pull in extra revenue down the road - just like some authors use their books for. The fact of the matter is I'm sure ppl like Marc enjoying helping but not at the cost of being (even if only perceived) of being finically detrimental to himself and his family. CodeProject grew because of the sacrifice of more than one person. Now, I'm sure that Chris and Co. sacrificed the most, and therefore deserver the most from it. But, the fact still remains that not many people enjoy shooting themselves in the foot financially. If it can come down to money for one, it can come down to money for another. And, as it was it said to me, it's just business right? Jeremy Falcon
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I just want to you remind you all that CodeProject isn't the only one with bills. You think people like Marc and I live free as well? What it sounds like to me, is that most want us to be grateful for some website allowing us the privilege to take our time and write an article. Why do to think that when someone shares code that eventually becomes commercial quality they pull their articles (think Kirk Stowell)? For some, (not all) it's a training ground to help pull in extra revenue down the road - just like some authors use their books for. The fact of the matter is I'm sure ppl like Marc enjoying helping but not at the cost of being (even if only perceived) of being finically detrimental to himself and his family. CodeProject grew because of the sacrifice of more than one person. Now, I'm sure that Chris and Co. sacrificed the most, and therefore deserver the most from it. But, the fact still remains that not many people enjoy shooting themselves in the foot financially. If it can come down to money for one, it can come down to money for another. And, as it was it said to me, it's just business right? Jeremy Falcon
Also, before the commons start assuming everything I believe again let me just say this: I personally don't intend on pulling my articles. I don't intend to stop writing them (if I can stop procrastinating). I do, however understand the disagreement of some. And, I don't want to see CP turn the way of the dark side. Jeremy Falcon
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I don't think the amount received would make sense at all. How much do you xpect to get in a month? Flipping burgers is probably ten times more economical (plus you meet a lot of fat people and feel better about yourself) My most recent article would be absolutely uneconomical from a commercial standpoint. Getting another $10 for it would mean absolutely no motiviation at all.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
sighist || Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: My most recent article would be absolutely uneconomical from a commercial standpoint. Getting another $10 for it would mean absolutely no motiviation at all. Ditto. Jeremy Falcon
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In some cases, targeted ads can actually help articles as the author is giving free working solution with source for the products that are being advertised. :) //Start of joke Never comment ur code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand !!! //End of joke
For myself, I have benefited from CP because it contains many articles that have been useful to me. I have also benefited by the feedback I receive on the articles I post. And now, with the google ads, I will receive one more benefit - if the ads are targeted properly, they might be of interest to me, and so I believe I will be much more likely to click them, than on the banner ads. Because of this (possible) benefit, and because the google ads are tucked away at the bottom of articles, I do not find them intrusive, and I am willing to give them a chance, as Chris has asked. (But change the colors, please).
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Nishant S wrote: And to say that an author will want to remove his articles because he is mentally against putting contextual ads on his article is somehow ungrateful sounding in my opinion. Well, here's one of many possible responses. When I first wrote articles for CP, there were no targetted ads. Now, Chris has made a change that causes me to reconsider whether I want my articles on CP. Ungrateful? I'm incredibly grateful for CP, both as an author and as a user. But I really can't abide with this idea of targetted ads. It crosses the line for me. Some people don't have a problem with it, and that's fine too. Nishant S wrote: An author gets a lot out of CP, so why can't CP get something back from his/her articles? As I've said before, show me the donate button and I'll click on it. And what CP gets back is, by being the #1 coder site for its genre, it attracts ads from people like Microsoft as a result of the quantity and quality of the articles posted there. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog
Marc Clifton wrote: it attracts ads from people like Microsoft as a result of the quantity and quality of the articles posted there I wish that were true, Marc. I really do. cheers, Chris Maunder Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
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Also, before the commons start assuming everything I believe again let me just say this: I personally don't intend on pulling my articles. I don't intend to stop writing them (if I can stop procrastinating). I do, however understand the disagreement of some. And, I don't want to see CP turn the way of the dark side. Jeremy Falcon