Even Worse, JDeveloper 10g!
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It just arrived. Alright, I admit, being an impoverished technocrat I sign up for anything free. Oracle is strongly backing Java as a language for client access to their DBMS, and this offerring was for a complete IDE for developing such apps. I will definitely install it, just for the IDE, as I don't have a copy of Oracle handy at the moment to develop against. Does anyone have any experience with this release? Is it useful for general Java development? I know that I risk flaming by the C++ prima donnas here, but Java has a valid place in the software world, and I think it's worth learning. Not all apps require real-time access to hardware, and speed is not an issue in most applications. No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, regardless of what language is used, including VB. I'm just interested in what others have done and experienced with this IDE, if indeed any of you have tried it. Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies...;P Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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It just arrived. Alright, I admit, being an impoverished technocrat I sign up for anything free. Oracle is strongly backing Java as a language for client access to their DBMS, and this offerring was for a complete IDE for developing such apps. I will definitely install it, just for the IDE, as I don't have a copy of Oracle handy at the moment to develop against. Does anyone have any experience with this release? Is it useful for general Java development? I know that I risk flaming by the C++ prima donnas here, but Java has a valid place in the software world, and I think it's worth learning. Not all apps require real-time access to hardware, and speed is not an issue in most applications. No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, regardless of what language is used, including VB. I'm just interested in what others have done and experienced with this IDE, if indeed any of you have tried it. Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies...;P Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
Used 9i version, and seemed pretty OK - think that you may struggle without an Oracle install though - seem to remember 9 not letting you do pretty much ANYHTING unless it could connect to an ORADB (even a console app with no DB requirements!) - may be wrong on that one though - haven't used it for AGES!!! So what do you think of Database10G then Roger - useful upgrade, or cynical marketing ploy? NOt tried it myself yet! "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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It just arrived. Alright, I admit, being an impoverished technocrat I sign up for anything free. Oracle is strongly backing Java as a language for client access to their DBMS, and this offerring was for a complete IDE for developing such apps. I will definitely install it, just for the IDE, as I don't have a copy of Oracle handy at the moment to develop against. Does anyone have any experience with this release? Is it useful for general Java development? I know that I risk flaming by the C++ prima donnas here, but Java has a valid place in the software world, and I think it's worth learning. Not all apps require real-time access to hardware, and speed is not an issue in most applications. No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, regardless of what language is used, including VB. I'm just interested in what others have done and experienced with this IDE, if indeed any of you have tried it. Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies...;P Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
Roger Wright wrote: Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies... Ok, I'll bite the bait: on browsing the Internet performance isn't so much important (we all know someone who still uses a Celeron 300 to browse it), so why don't you see anyone using Sun's Java browser? I don't even recall the name right now! Roger Wright wrote: No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, Just code in Java and anyone will out-type and out-click most modern CPU. While Sun and Oracle insists on putting Java as the best thing on Earth, its design principle was "code once, run anywhere": whether or not it achieves it, it's another discussion - some may say "code once, debug everywhere". Java is only strong at server side because doing UI in java is painful, and produces ugly, slow and unresponsive applications. If you do server applications in Java, no one will notice, as there will be a fast browser showing the HTML for you. And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now. So, you come to C# and Java. With Java, you don't have to worry if the market will chose Windows or Linux, so this is a good strategic choice. Until Mono runs better, C# is still tied to Windows platform and having a Linux/OSS strategy can help big corporations to negotiate better prices with MS. Yes, even I am blogging now!
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It just arrived. Alright, I admit, being an impoverished technocrat I sign up for anything free. Oracle is strongly backing Java as a language for client access to their DBMS, and this offerring was for a complete IDE for developing such apps. I will definitely install it, just for the IDE, as I don't have a copy of Oracle handy at the moment to develop against. Does anyone have any experience with this release? Is it useful for general Java development? I know that I risk flaming by the C++ prima donnas here, but Java has a valid place in the software world, and I think it's worth learning. Not all apps require real-time access to hardware, and speed is not an issue in most applications. No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, regardless of what language is used, including VB. I'm just interested in what others have done and experienced with this IDE, if indeed any of you have tried it. Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies...;P Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
...WhoooooooooooOOOOOF... :):):)
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Roger Wright wrote: Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies... Ok, I'll bite the bait: on browsing the Internet performance isn't so much important (we all know someone who still uses a Celeron 300 to browse it), so why don't you see anyone using Sun's Java browser? I don't even recall the name right now! Roger Wright wrote: No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, Just code in Java and anyone will out-type and out-click most modern CPU. While Sun and Oracle insists on putting Java as the best thing on Earth, its design principle was "code once, run anywhere": whether or not it achieves it, it's another discussion - some may say "code once, debug everywhere". Java is only strong at server side because doing UI in java is painful, and produces ugly, slow and unresponsive applications. If you do server applications in Java, no one will notice, as there will be a fast browser showing the HTML for you. And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now. So, you come to C# and Java. With Java, you don't have to worry if the market will chose Windows or Linux, so this is a good strategic choice. Until Mono runs better, C# is still tied to Windows platform and having a Linux/OSS strategy can help big corporations to negotiate better prices with MS. Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote: And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Daniel Turini wrote: With Java, you don't have to worry if the market will chose Windows or Linux This has left me baffled for a long time. I have a hard time believing that a C++-application should be much harder to write than a Java-one on the server. And for non-GUI-apps, it is possible to write platform-independent code in C++ (at least to the level of Java). So, in my opinion, Java has made the greatest inroads in the area where it is of the least use :-)
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Used 9i version, and seemed pretty OK - think that you may struggle without an Oracle install though - seem to remember 9 not letting you do pretty much ANYHTING unless it could connect to an ORADB (even a console app with no DB requirements!) - may be wrong on that one though - haven't used it for AGES!!! So what do you think of Database10G then Roger - useful upgrade, or cynical marketing ploy? NOt tried it myself yet! "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
RichardGrimmer wrote: what do you think of Database10G I dunno... haven't used it yet. They sent me a free copy of 8i a few years ago; I assume that's because no one would buy it. I never got around to installing it, though, having my hands full trying to use SQL Server 7 at the time. Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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Roger Wright wrote: Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies... Ok, I'll bite the bait: on browsing the Internet performance isn't so much important (we all know someone who still uses a Celeron 300 to browse it), so why don't you see anyone using Sun's Java browser? I don't even recall the name right now! Roger Wright wrote: No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, Just code in Java and anyone will out-type and out-click most modern CPU. While Sun and Oracle insists on putting Java as the best thing on Earth, its design principle was "code once, run anywhere": whether or not it achieves it, it's another discussion - some may say "code once, debug everywhere". Java is only strong at server side because doing UI in java is painful, and produces ugly, slow and unresponsive applications. If you do server applications in Java, no one will notice, as there will be a fast browser showing the HTML for you. And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now. So, you come to C# and Java. With Java, you don't have to worry if the market will chose Windows or Linux, so this is a good strategic choice. Until Mono runs better, C# is still tied to Windows platform and having a Linux/OSS strategy can help big corporations to negotiate better prices with MS. Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote: finding good C++ programmers is hard. Finding good programmers is hard, period. It doesn't matter what language they use. Daniel Turini wrote: Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now Ridiculous. VB is pernicious, and I see far more 'real world' apps written in it than C++. It's far easier to code a working app (not necessarily a good one, but usable) in VB than VC++, and it doesn't take near the amount of training and study to learn to do so. This lets CIOs hire relatively inexperienced programmers to do the grunt work, and reserve their expensive heavy hitters for powerful systems programming in C++. You're dead right, though, about Java producing ugly GUIs - the stock packages are poorly done, or just badly rendered by VMs. That's a shame, as the concept of cross-platform development is a good one. Perhaps .Net will make some strides in that direction. Some people think of it as a six-pack; I consider it more of a support group.
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Daniel Turini wrote: And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Daniel Turini wrote: With Java, you don't have to worry if the market will chose Windows or Linux This has left me baffled for a long time. I have a hard time believing that a C++-application should be much harder to write than a Java-one on the server. And for non-GUI-apps, it is possible to write platform-independent code in C++ (at least to the level of Java). So, in my opinion, Java has made the greatest inroads in the area where it is of the least use :-)
It's all about marketing... (Which was actually a failure since Java was originally designed to be a language for small embedded devices) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
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Roger Wright wrote: Flame away - I'm wearing my Nomex undies... Ok, I'll bite the bait: on browsing the Internet performance isn't so much important (we all know someone who still uses a Celeron 300 to browse it), so why don't you see anyone using Sun's Java browser? I don't even recall the name right now! Roger Wright wrote: No one I've ever met can out-type or out-click any modern CPU, Just code in Java and anyone will out-type and out-click most modern CPU. While Sun and Oracle insists on putting Java as the best thing on Earth, its design principle was "code once, run anywhere": whether or not it achieves it, it's another discussion - some may say "code once, debug everywhere". Java is only strong at server side because doing UI in java is painful, and produces ugly, slow and unresponsive applications. If you do server applications in Java, no one will notice, as there will be a fast browser showing the HTML for you. And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now. So, you come to C# and Java. With Java, you don't have to worry if the market will chose Windows or Linux, so this is a good strategic choice. Until Mono runs better, C# is still tied to Windows platform and having a Linux/OSS strategy can help big corporations to negotiate better prices with MS. Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote: And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now. So, you come to C# and Java. The part of finding good C++ programmers is very true, but isn't the only reason. It has to do with productivity! With c++ you lose too much time regarding obscure and technical issues instead of actually solving the business problems. You loose too much time waiting for the damn thing to compile, it only gets worse with templates. Java and c# are so much productive !!! Currently I doing mixed c++/java programming with corba, on the c++ side I waste somedays 50% of my time compiling , many times we really are forced to think extremely well if doing the *right thing* is better than wasting until 6 hours for the program to compile for the programming thing that we implemented right. On the java side , the programming is so much easy , the time spent with compilation is minimum, my productivity gains are great. With Eclipse with it's own incremental background compiler, the compilation time is minimum and their refactoring support is great, sparing me a lot of wasted time doing error prone labour. The level of code that I make on the java side is an order of magnitude higher than on c++.Beacuse IDEs matter in IMHO C# will gain a lot when jetbrains the company of a great java editor IntelliJ Idea finnishes Resharper their c# pluggin for VS.Net 2003, this stuff will make finally good refactoring support for VS. For larger projects java and C# will rule the market, C++ will be used in much more restrict markets and products. On this world where time is a precious thing and the world RAD is imperative, java and c# will flourish and C++ is going to be used less and less. I only hope that C++ doesn't disappear like many guys are saying , and I'm most certain it's not going away anytime soon. I love the language , and it still continues to be the most powerfull language out there. Cheers,Joao Vaz Three primary LAN architectures for Network Engineers, under the sky, Seven OSI layers for the Open System Architects, in their halls of stone, Nine N-xDU operations* for mortal Developers, doomed to die, One protocol suite for the Dark Sysadmin, in his dark server room, In the land of mordor.net, where the shadowed fibers lie
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It's all about marketing... (Which was actually a failure since Java was originally designed to be a language for small embedded devices) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
Yes, I'm sure that is an important part of it - but what surprises me is on the server... :confused:
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Daniel Turini wrote: And why Java on the server? In my experience, CIOs are afraid that C++ deadlines aren't met, and finding good C++ programmers is hard. Even CIOs know that VB is out of question, now. So, you come to C# and Java. The part of finding good C++ programmers is very true, but isn't the only reason. It has to do with productivity! With c++ you lose too much time regarding obscure and technical issues instead of actually solving the business problems. You loose too much time waiting for the damn thing to compile, it only gets worse with templates. Java and c# are so much productive !!! Currently I doing mixed c++/java programming with corba, on the c++ side I waste somedays 50% of my time compiling , many times we really are forced to think extremely well if doing the *right thing* is better than wasting until 6 hours for the program to compile for the programming thing that we implemented right. On the java side , the programming is so much easy , the time spent with compilation is minimum, my productivity gains are great. With Eclipse with it's own incremental background compiler, the compilation time is minimum and their refactoring support is great, sparing me a lot of wasted time doing error prone labour. The level of code that I make on the java side is an order of magnitude higher than on c++.Beacuse IDEs matter in IMHO C# will gain a lot when jetbrains the company of a great java editor IntelliJ Idea finnishes Resharper their c# pluggin for VS.Net 2003, this stuff will make finally good refactoring support for VS. For larger projects java and C# will rule the market, C++ will be used in much more restrict markets and products. On this world where time is a precious thing and the world RAD is imperative, java and c# will flourish and C++ is going to be used less and less. I only hope that C++ doesn't disappear like many guys are saying , and I'm most certain it's not going away anytime soon. I love the language , and it still continues to be the most powerfull language out there. Cheers,Joao Vaz Three primary LAN architectures for Network Engineers, under the sky, Seven OSI layers for the Open System Architects, in their halls of stone, Nine N-xDU operations* for mortal Developers, doomed to die, One protocol suite for the Dark Sysadmin, in his dark server room, In the land of mordor.net, where the shadowed fibers lie
Joao Vaz wrote: wasting until 6 hours for the program to compile You must have a really shitty development environment :-)
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Joao Vaz wrote: wasting until 6 hours for the program to compile You must have a really shitty development environment :-)
Johan Rosengren wrote: You must have a really shitty development environment Solaris SPARC machines are reliable but damn slow ... X| Cheers,Joao Vaz Three primary LAN architectures for Network Engineers, under the sky, Seven OSI layers for the Open System Architects, in their halls of stone, Nine N-xDU operations* for mortal Developers, doomed to die, One protocol suite for the Dark Sysadmin, in his dark server room, In the land of mordor.net, where the shadowed fibers lie
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Yes, I'm sure that is an important part of it - but what surprises me is on the server... :confused:
After the total failure to push java on the client and desktop side, there aren't many other places to push it. Add a couple of billion dollars to that, and you will have a server side "perfection". Heck, given enough time and money, VB6 could be made into the best thing on the server side since sliced bread. :) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
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After the total failure to push java on the client and desktop side, there aren't many other places to push it. Add a couple of billion dollars to that, and you will have a server side "perfection". Heck, given enough time and money, VB6 could be made into the best thing on the server side since sliced bread. :) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: VB6 could be made into the best thing on the server side since sliced bread *shudder* Note: I've nothing againts VB - only the crappy systems (that seems inevitable) resulting from it.