informal survey...
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<sarcasm> I'd never pay for CDs. Nope, in fact, I d/l tracks all day. Oh, but it doesn’t stop there. Since it’s ok and all, I generally steal CDs from the store too (because they are overpriced mind you, never mind that big screen TV I can’t afford because it won’t fit in my pocket). It’s only music; it’s not like something real. I mean, it’s nothing like stealing software. I mean, with software your stealing bits and bytes and with digital music you’re not! Music is nothing! Heck no, it’s not hypocritical either. It’s also convenient because shopping online is too much of a bother and I’m impatient. Nah, I’m not making excuses to steal music either, and yes I’m the only one with bills so I should save my money not give it to those evil CD makers. </sarcasm> Jeremy Falcon
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Good artists are worth €18 / CD. I'll still download though. I mean, there's no way I am going to pay for anything before knowing what it is. If it's good, I'll pay for it. Nobody seriously expects you to buy a car without taking it out for a test drive. Why is music any different? (And no. Radio doesn't count as a test drive, as there isn't anything on the radio worth paying for) My CD collection contains 300 CDs and growing, and I'll be damned if I ever get another bad CD in it again (it has happened) :) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
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WTF?? That's what you call being a jerk? Whatever. Jeremy Falcon
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Good artists are worth €18 / CD. I'll still download though. I mean, there's no way I am going to pay for anything before knowing what it is. If it's good, I'll pay for it. Nobody seriously expects you to buy a car without taking it out for a test drive. Why is music any different? (And no. Radio doesn't count as a test drive, as there isn't anything on the radio worth paying for) My CD collection contains 300 CDs and growing, and I'll be damned if I ever get another bad CD in it again (it has happened) :) -- Ich bin Joachim von Hassel, und ich bin Pilot der Bundeswehr. Welle: Erdball - F104-G Starfighter
I believe your reason is the only legit point about downloading music. I think the way we buy CDs do need refinement. I mean, even MS (and most ISVs) give evals, etc. with their software. I believe the music industry needs something similar as well. But, it doesn't make stealing music right. Jeremy Falcon
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I try to buy second-hand now, paying $5-$6/disc. But i still try to download tracks first, if it's an artist i'm not familiar with. Services that allow previewing a track are useful... to a point (partial tracks or low quality would be fine, both together kinda sucks). To be honest, even if record stores started giving away CDs to whoever walked in the door, i would probably download tracks first. Convenience.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...That is the same as I do; the local CD Exchange here in Ottawa gets my money more often than not when it comes to music, heck, even some DVDs. I got They Might Be Giants on DVD from there for $12(CDN) used (wheee!). Used CDs range from $5(CDN) to $10(CDN) depending on the artist and how new the CD is. If any of you are always buying new I suggest you check out your local used music stores, and visit more than 1 because content differs greatly from store to store (at least here in Ottawa). I am finding that I can find more music that meats my taste in these stores, and the people that work there often like the same music... and they are often quite knowledgeable about music/artists. : Dean 'Karnatos' Michaud
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<sarcasm> I'd never pay for CDs. Nope, in fact, I d/l tracks all day. Oh, but it doesn’t stop there. Since it’s ok and all, I generally steal CDs from the store too (because they are overpriced mind you, never mind that big screen TV I can’t afford because it won’t fit in my pocket). It’s only music; it’s not like something real. I mean, it’s nothing like stealing software. I mean, with software your stealing bits and bytes and with digital music you’re not! Music is nothing! Heck no, it’s not hypocritical either. It’s also convenient because shopping online is too much of a bother and I’m impatient. Nah, I’m not making excuses to steal music either, and yes I’m the only one with bills so I should save my money not give it to those evil CD makers. </sarcasm> Jeremy Falcon
So anyway, just about every time this discussion comes up, i try to clarify the difference between theft and copyright violation. And frankly, i'm sick of it. I'm not "stealing" from anyone. Music producers, publishers, distributors, and retailers have made money off of me for years, and will likely continue to do so. I listen to the radio, i watch MTV, i pay subscriptions for digital cable or satellite TV so that i can get the all-music channels that come with it, i visit pawn shops and second hand stores, swap mix discs with friends, hold cell phones up to my stereo speakers so as to introduce friends far away with my latest obsessions, buy tracks off of Napster, trade MP3s over email, and yes, download music. Why? Because i'm cheap? Because i'm trying to "stick it to the man"? naw. i. like. music. This has nothing at all to do with walking out of Best Buy with a stolen TV. Such comparisons are low, and ring more of parroted propaganda than any objective opinion.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan... -
I believe your reason is the only legit point about downloading music. I think the way we buy CDs do need refinement. I mean, even MS (and most ISVs) give evals, etc. with their software. I believe the music industry needs something similar as well. But, it doesn't make stealing music right. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I believe the music industry needs something similar as well. There are some few good record stores around yet, that will let you sit down and listen to any CD before you decide to buy it. These stores rock. But your average mall/Best Buy/Walmart***** tends to limit such previewing to the handful of discs that they're currently being paid to pimp. Then again, if you're selling to the Top-40 crowd, why would you bother? :sigh: *but don't ever buy CDs at Wal*mart. Seriously, just don't.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan... -
So anyway, just about every time this discussion comes up, i try to clarify the difference between theft and copyright violation. And frankly, i'm sick of it. I'm not "stealing" from anyone. Music producers, publishers, distributors, and retailers have made money off of me for years, and will likely continue to do so. I listen to the radio, i watch MTV, i pay subscriptions for digital cable or satellite TV so that i can get the all-music channels that come with it, i visit pawn shops and second hand stores, swap mix discs with friends, hold cell phones up to my stereo speakers so as to introduce friends far away with my latest obsessions, buy tracks off of Napster, trade MP3s over email, and yes, download music. Why? Because i'm cheap? Because i'm trying to "stick it to the man"? naw. i. like. music. This has nothing at all to do with walking out of Best Buy with a stolen TV. Such comparisons are low, and ring more of parroted propaganda than any objective opinion.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...Shog9 wrote: i try to clarify the difference between theft and copyright violation Yeah, on one hand, you're stealing a product that somebody else (the store) paid for. On the other hand, you're taking something which would've otherwise made some company revenue. Yeah, your right, I can't find any similarities between the two. Shog9 wrote: I'm not "stealing" from anyone. Yes you are. Just because it's not tangible doesn't mean you're not taking some entity illegally. What, it's wrong to steal a CDR from the store, but ok to steal the content on a CD that makes it valuable? Shog9 wrote: naw. i. like. music. So if you like software does that make it ok to pirate Windows? Jeremy Falcon
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WTF?? That's what you call being a jerk? Whatever. Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: I believe the music industry needs something similar as well. There are some few good record stores around yet, that will let you sit down and listen to any CD before you decide to buy it. These stores rock. But your average mall/Best Buy/Walmart***** tends to limit such previewing to the handful of discs that they're currently being paid to pimp. Then again, if you're selling to the Top-40 crowd, why would you bother? :sigh: *but don't ever buy CDs at Wal*mart. Seriously, just don't.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...Shog9 wrote: *but don't ever buy CDs at Wal*mart. Seriously, just don't. What I never understood about Wal-Mart is that they'll buy the censored versions of CDs, but yet sell unedited movies like Basic Instinct. Jeremy Falcon
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So anyway, just about every time this discussion comes up, i try to clarify the difference between theft and copyright violation. And frankly, i'm sick of it. I'm not "stealing" from anyone. Music producers, publishers, distributors, and retailers have made money off of me for years, and will likely continue to do so. I listen to the radio, i watch MTV, i pay subscriptions for digital cable or satellite TV so that i can get the all-music channels that come with it, i visit pawn shops and second hand stores, swap mix discs with friends, hold cell phones up to my stereo speakers so as to introduce friends far away with my latest obsessions, buy tracks off of Napster, trade MP3s over email, and yes, download music. Why? Because i'm cheap? Because i'm trying to "stick it to the man"? naw. i. like. music. This has nothing at all to do with walking out of Best Buy with a stolen TV. Such comparisons are low, and ring more of parroted propaganda than any objective opinion.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...Shog9 wrote: This has nothing at all to do with walking out of Best Buy with a stolen TV. Such comparisons are low, and ring more of parroted propaganda than any objective opinion. IMO theft is theft, whether it be a plasma TV or a track of music. Artists, like programmers, have a right to be paid for their work. your statement smacks of moral relativism... when does it become theft? only when it is worth more than $xxx? There is no ethical or moral difference between theft of a few minutes of music and theft of that TV. Theft is theft... :suss: Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely. - Vint Cerf
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I'm in a mood. ;P Jeremy Falcon
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I believe your reason is the only legit point about downloading music. I think the way we buy CDs do need refinement. I mean, even MS (and most ISVs) give evals, etc. with their software. I believe the music industry needs something similar as well. But, it doesn't make stealing music right. Jeremy Falcon
Nothing will ever make stealing anything right - taking something without permission from others is always going to be wrong. I do agree that we need to go about buying music differently; but it's not right to steal a copy and then decide you want to buy it. I think if it became more feasible for bands to sell me their music directly I'd be much more inclined to buy music because I'd their time and talent was being compensated. As things are right now, I buy my music used 90% of the time, I cought up the $5-$10(CDN) for the CD and if it's only so-so I can always return it for roughly half of what I paid for it. This does not happen to often because I can usually get a good listen of the CD at the store before I purchase it (yeah, I'm one of those boneheads with the 'phones on listen to CD after CD at the store :P). This works well for me, and I'm hardly ever burned. : Dean 'Karnatos' Michaud
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Actually, here in Canada, I download albums off allofmp3.com for about sixty cents an album. It's a Russian site: I am staying within legal boundaries in Canada, and they are staying within legal boundaries in Russia. $.60 a CD: not bad. Jason nirgle@gmail.com SonorkID 100.611
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Shog9 wrote: i try to clarify the difference between theft and copyright violation Yeah, on one hand, you're stealing a product that somebody else (the store) paid for. On the other hand, you're taking something which would've otherwise made some company revenue. Yeah, your right, I can't find any similarities between the two. Shog9 wrote: I'm not "stealing" from anyone. Yes you are. Just because it's not tangible doesn't mean you're not taking some entity illegally. What, it's wrong to steal a CDR from the store, but ok to steal the content on a CD that makes it valuable? Shog9 wrote: naw. i. like. music. So if you like software does that make it ok to pirate Windows? Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: On the other hand, you're taking something which would've otherwise made some company revenue. Funny, i can cook my own burgers too. Does that mean i'm stealing from McDonalds? "Potential revenue" is bullshit, Jeremy - though if we must disagree on this, i'd love to sell you some fine oak furniture that just seems to look like a bag of acorns... ;)
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan... -
CDs were I live run from $30 to $40. I still buy some music, and download some. I tend to buy more the CD's of obscure artists that I like, and sometimes buy something because I downloaded it and found I listened to it a lot. If CD's dropped in price to about $10 ( which is reasonable, the introduction of CD's involved a huge price hike, when they are cheaper to make, and it's rare that any music I like has a heavy advertising budget ), then I'd spend more than I do now, and probably in effect only download stuff I am completely unsure of, and buy it if it was any good. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: On the other hand, you're taking something which would've otherwise made some company revenue. Funny, i can cook my own burgers too. Does that mean i'm stealing from McDonalds? "Potential revenue" is bullshit, Jeremy - though if we must disagree on this, i'd love to sell you some fine oak furniture that just seems to look like a bag of acorns... ;)
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...Shog9 wrote: Funny, i can cook my own burgers too. Does that mean i'm stealing from McDonalds? You're comparing two different things. A direct analogy would be you're taking a big mac that somebody took from McDonalds without their permission in the first place, but they're giving it to you with their B2P (Burger-To-Person) network. You see, in effect those bits and bytes belong to the originator (band, ISV, etc.) as IP. My point is there's no distinction between IP and physical, tangible products like a big mac. And, if technology permitted and we could "copy" big macs molecule for molecule, we'd be in the same hole with people pirating tangible products. Shog9 wrote: Jeremy - though if we must disagree on this, i'd love to sell you some fine oak furniture that just seems to look like a bag of acorns... If you can guarantee me they'll feel soft and comfortable we may have a deal. :) Jeremy Falcon
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I've never downloaded music. I don't expect to down load music in the near future either. I expect to continue buying CDs - occasionally ranting and raging because some won't place on my CD personal stereo as it doesn't see past the security on some new disks. BTW, where do you get CDs for $12? They are about £15 ($27) in the UK. When I was in the US last they were charging $18 for a CD.
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Shog9 wrote: This has nothing at all to do with walking out of Best Buy with a stolen TV. Such comparisons are low, and ring more of parroted propaganda than any objective opinion. IMO theft is theft, whether it be a plasma TV or a track of music. Artists, like programmers, have a right to be paid for their work. your statement smacks of moral relativism... when does it become theft? only when it is worth more than $xxx? There is no ethical or moral difference between theft of a few minutes of music and theft of that TV. Theft is theft... :suss: Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely. - Vint Cerf
Rob Graham wrote: your statement smacks of moral relativism... when does it become theft? Not at all - music/software/movie/whatever piracy is wrong to the extent that it breaks the social norm, codified in law, that says that the originator of an intellectual work has right to profit from its distribution. This is, however, not the same as theft, regardless of scale. Definitions of theft vary, but all are typified by the notion that "a person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". This is not hard to understand. If i make a copy of your CD, and leave with the copy, you are still in possession of your CD - i have taken none of your property. If i go on to make 100,000 copies of that CD, you are still not deprived of it. It is not a fine line. Attempts to blur the distinction between theft and copyright violation usually bring up the notion that there is some "loss of potential revenue". This is bullshit - if i make unauthorized copies of your work, it is still a violation of your copyright, even if you had no intention of profiting from it. I'm sorry, but the idea that i can steal millions of dollars by setting up a CD duplication plant, regardless of whether the duplicates are ever sold or even distributed is ludicrous at best.
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan... -
Jeremy Falcon wrote: On the other hand, you're taking something which would've otherwise made some company revenue. Funny, i can cook my own burgers too. Does that mean i'm stealing from McDonalds? "Potential revenue" is bullshit, Jeremy - though if we must disagree on this, i'd love to sell you some fine oak furniture that just seems to look like a bag of acorns... ;)
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...Shog9 wrote: just seems to look like a bag of acorns I ALWAYS look forward to reading your posts :P Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder