How much should I charge?
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
i start with the completely arbitrary value of $60/hr. then, i fudge my hourly estimates based on how much i think the customer is willing to pay. so, i guess what i really do is per project fees starting from per hour estimates. i can afford to be this flexible with the numbers because it's not my full-time job. i'm basically charging for the headache of having to deal with the customer at all :) -c
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
I had a friend who was contracted to build an e-commerce site from scratch. The site had many specific needs which is why the customer was looking for a custom solution. My friend, priced the project out and handed the customer the contract. As development continued, several issues popped up. Changes to the site, which required changes to the base code engine. Additions to the site, which required changes and additions to the code engine. etc. All told, my friend had about 6 months of solid work into this site. Many, many hours. Truthfully, he lost out big on the deal because he spent alot of time outside the contract making changes that he didnt get paid for. ....SO..... The moral of the story is, if you charge a flat rate per project, make sure that you add specific clauses in the contract (AND BY GOD USE A CONTRACT!!) for changes, and additions to the codebase, and how much you will charge per hour for those changes. If you charge by the hour, make sure you can document your time. As for how much $$. How much is this project worth to the customer? Is it mission critical? Are you the only one who can do it for them? Your time is valuable to you, so you set the bar as high as you need to. :) Good luck, Frank
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
If it's a big project get clearly outlined specs for the project before you even start, Get a contract is important and (if it's a big project once again) make sure you get provisonal payments built into the project. Depending on the client Don't ever hand over the completed project until you get your final payment. Now days, I only hand over the completed project, when I already have a good working relationship with the other party. But I, have been shafted sorely by various seemingly respectable companies over the web etc. If the other party is outside of your country "demand" the way payment will be made, or you can wait weeks or even months for international cheques to clear. ------- Charging by the hour: there are two basic ways of doing this, actual hours and perceived hours, the more experienced you are the better the idea of percieved hours can be, otherwise if you are in doubt use actual hours. How much to charge: You'll get paid what you negotiate for not what you are actually worth. this can cut both ways. If in doubt as to a starting point, Ask them to make you an offer for your services ! Most companies don't like doing this but they probably already have a budgeted figure for your services. If there figure comes in either low or high, Ask them if they can lift the figure for you, (They probably already expected you to do this, and if you don't it will show them you don't have great business accumen) Good luck ! Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
Do it by the hour and have a signed contract. If you don't do it by the hour then things tend to drag on and on and on. If you do it for a flat fee, then they should supply a functional spec. Changes to the spec cost extra. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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If it's a big project get clearly outlined specs for the project before you even start, Get a contract is important and (if it's a big project once again) make sure you get provisonal payments built into the project. Depending on the client Don't ever hand over the completed project until you get your final payment. Now days, I only hand over the completed project, when I already have a good working relationship with the other party. But I, have been shafted sorely by various seemingly respectable companies over the web etc. If the other party is outside of your country "demand" the way payment will be made, or you can wait weeks or even months for international cheques to clear. ------- Charging by the hour: there are two basic ways of doing this, actual hours and perceived hours, the more experienced you are the better the idea of percieved hours can be, otherwise if you are in doubt use actual hours. How much to charge: You'll get paid what you negotiate for not what you are actually worth. this can cut both ways. If in doubt as to a starting point, Ask them to make you an offer for your services ! Most companies don't like doing this but they probably already have a budgeted figure for your services. If there figure comes in either low or high, Ask them if they can lift the figure for you, (They probably already expected you to do this, and if you don't it will show them you don't have great business accumen) Good luck ! Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
Along the same lines if you ask them to front a figure for you doesn't that as well show them you do not have "great business accumen" as well? I feel that going the other way around by giving them a quote that is much higher and then negotiating down is better. That way they feel they are getting a bargain by the lowered price, and if you pad it just right you may come out making more than you have anticipated for in the beginning :-) For example you feel that $60/hour is fair, you pitch the job for $75, they come down to $65 you make $5 more than you anticipated :-) I work this way, but I don't do it often so I can't give you a good track record if it works out well in the long run. Plus they feel that they are getting you at a deal, or bargain, in which you make them feel better about the whole thing. Sam C ---- Allsys Technologies http://www.allsystech.com "Making software simpler..."
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Along the same lines if you ask them to front a figure for you doesn't that as well show them you do not have "great business accumen" as well? I feel that going the other way around by giving them a quote that is much higher and then negotiating down is better. That way they feel they are getting a bargain by the lowered price, and if you pad it just right you may come out making more than you have anticipated for in the beginning :-) For example you feel that $60/hour is fair, you pitch the job for $75, they come down to $65 you make $5 more than you anticipated :-) I work this way, but I don't do it often so I can't give you a good track record if it works out well in the long run. Plus they feel that they are getting you at a deal, or bargain, in which you make them feel better about the whole thing. Sam C ---- Allsys Technologies http://www.allsystech.com "Making software simpler..."
Sam C wrote: Along the same lines if you ask them to front a figure for you doesn't that as well show them you do not have "great business accumen" as well? You have a point Sam, but I think it depends on the way you word it. This negotiating "trick" puts your "opponents" on the back foot, so to speak. :-) You try to give them the feeling that you would like to do the work, but you are also busy with other "real stuff". Contracts are all about negotiation at the end of the day. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
I personally don't have any advice for you, but I know a book that might: http://www.wrox.com/Books/Book_Details.asp?ISBN=1861004761 I bought this to learn more about DB development and while I thought it was overly technical for someone with no DB devel experience like myself, the first third of the book is a fantastic and detailed discussion about the process of contracts with clients, how to work with them after you've agreed on a contract, etc. :suss: -Jason
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
I have done it both ways and they both have they're advantages. When I was working full time and took on a side project I charged a "flat fee". I figured the project would take about 180 hours and I didn't actucally need to deliver the finished product for 9 months (they were expecting a "beta" around 6 months). This worked out well because I had alot of time and I could work on it at MY CONVIENENCE- it didn't interfere with my fulltime job and I didn't need to kill myself by working long hours at home after long hours at the office. A few learned suggestions for this method: 1) Get everything in writing. 2) Put a project plan together that includes milestones and deliverables. Make sure that you agree on a procedure for large scale changes/redisgns that may affect your time estimates/delivery dates. 3) Setup a payment schedule- Collect a % of the money at each milestone or at major points (i.e 25% at each of 4 points etc). I would shoot for at least 75% of the money collected BEFORE final delivery and 100% at delivery of final product. Do not turn over source code until final payment is made. 4) At each milestone, make sure you get your customer to "sign-off" on the items. Have a meeting at each review to discuss progress and make sure you are all still on the same page. Use your judgement on requested changes- if they're small and don't have impact on the schedule go ahead and do it (build good will with the customer; alot of little things are easy and customers appreciate them). If they're major changes and you designed it based on a spec- you will have an easier time getting more money if more time is involved. 5) Consider charging for the project plan- this will take many hours and will also demonstrate that you are serious about the plan. If you think the client will not go for this, show it as a discount on the total project (i.e. Total project amout $6500: $7500 base cost - $1000 for project plan - of course you already figured in extra hours for the project plan) The nice thing about doing this is that you get a decent sum of money up front early in the project- this can be spent on expenses to help with the project- hardware upgrade, software- and you don't need to worry about dipping into your own money. It also gives you a good sense as to what to expect with payments- Are they quick to pay out, do you wait weeks to get a PO only to submit it back to the company to wait another 2 weeks to get a check, etc... (if they screw around this early in a project when it comes
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Sam C wrote: Along the same lines if you ask them to front a figure for you doesn't that as well show them you do not have "great business accumen" as well? You have a point Sam, but I think it depends on the way you word it. This negotiating "trick" puts your "opponents" on the back foot, so to speak. :-) You try to give them the feeling that you would like to do the work, but you are also busy with other "real stuff". Contracts are all about negotiation at the end of the day. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
True it all seems to be ones "point of view" then, well actually the point of view of the person the you are in negotiations with :-) Sam C ---- Allsys Technologies http://www.allsystech.com "Making software simpler..."
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
I bill by the hour. My going rate is $125.00 US per hour, dropping to $75.00 per hour for jobs over 80 hours. This is for hard-core C++ development (much numerical and device control). Given the demands of my day job and my family, it's not worth it to consult for less (I have to buy a lot of take-out meals and housecleaner time to substitute for things I would otherwise be available to do evenings and weekends.). I generally provide a lot of unpaid support after the job is complete, but with limits. Draw a firm line: explanations, bug-fixes, hand-holding are unpaid. Anything that changes the original specification and requires rewriting for reasons other than buggy code requires a new billable engagement.
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I bill by the hour. My going rate is $125.00 US per hour, dropping to $75.00 per hour for jobs over 80 hours. This is for hard-core C++ development (much numerical and device control). Given the demands of my day job and my family, it's not worth it to consult for less (I have to buy a lot of take-out meals and housecleaner time to substitute for things I would otherwise be available to do evenings and weekends.). I generally provide a lot of unpaid support after the job is complete, but with limits. Draw a firm line: explanations, bug-fixes, hand-holding are unpaid. Anything that changes the original specification and requires rewriting for reasons other than buggy code requires a new billable engagement.
Jonathan Gilligan wrote: Given the demands of my day job and my family, it's not worth it to consult for less Very good point ! Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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I have a potential client that wants to buy some of my time for DB development. I've never done this so I'm not sure if I should charge by the hour or just for the completed project. If by the hour, I'm not sure what $ amount to start with. Anyone have any advice for me? :) Thanks in advance!
Sounds very familiar. I have a full time job but recently a friend approached me with a proposition. One of his business clients needed a website and he knew that I would be able to do it. I decided to give it a shot. In the end it went very well, that I have decided that I want to do more of the same thing... Anyway to answer your question. First of all work out how long its going to take you by writing down a list of milestones. Charge by the hour having worked out how many hours it will take. In fact to begin with overquote and then negotiate with the client over the price. Having made an agreement on the overall project cost, divide this by the hours to obtain your new hourly figure. If the client decides he wants other mods made later, then you can use this rate as the base of your calculations for extra costs. The project I did recently worked out well because I drew up a plan and set a number of milestones. The client paid on time for each one. This is the approach I will take in future. As for the base rate it very much depends on how much you would like to make out of it and whether you need to make a living out of it or just to pay for your next years holiday! Nick.
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Along the same lines if you ask them to front a figure for you doesn't that as well show them you do not have "great business accumen" as well? I feel that going the other way around by giving them a quote that is much higher and then negotiating down is better. That way they feel they are getting a bargain by the lowered price, and if you pad it just right you may come out making more than you have anticipated for in the beginning :-) For example you feel that $60/hour is fair, you pitch the job for $75, they come down to $65 you make $5 more than you anticipated :-) I work this way, but I don't do it often so I can't give you a good track record if it works out well in the long run. Plus they feel that they are getting you at a deal, or bargain, in which you make them feel better about the whole thing. Sam C ---- Allsys Technologies http://www.allsystech.com "Making software simpler..."
I quote my flat rate take-it-or-leave-it. This is straightforward for the customer and me. Aggressive negotiations on price may well leave the customer worried more over whether he could have haggled me down another 5% than over the quality of my work. This would leave him feeling dissatisfied and be less likely to get me return business. Instead, I tell him that if he is dissatisfied at any point in the contract, he can terminate and I will not bill him. However, I will not work for him again. This has worked well for me and builds trust with clients. It also means that if I get a bad feeling about a client's good will at the start, I will not bid on the job, since I don't want to be taken advantage of. On the whole, think about how pleasant negotiations are for most people. Think car dealers. Quoting a straightforward price take-it-or-leave-it reduces aggravation on both sides. There is an important precondition: I am not starving, so I can afford to walk away. George Bernard Shaw is said to have asked a pretty ingenue at a dinner party whether she would sleep with a man who gave her ten thousand pounds. She blushed and allowed as how she probably would. He then asked whether she would do the same for a pound and sixpence. "What kind of girl do you think I am, Mr. Shaw?" she replied indignantly. "We have already established that, my dear," replied the playwright. "Now we're haggling over the price."