Analyzing Kerry's acceptance speech...
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Chris Losinger wrote: i think they do now. i think the DNC did a good job of telling the country where he stands over the past few days. Yeah, with Michael Moore, and Jimmy Carter and the rest of the leftists in your party.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Yeah, with Michael Moore, and Jimmy Carter and the rest of the leftists in your party. Moore's a populist. -- his whole M.O. is Stick Up For The Little Guy . right now, he thinks w is screwing the Little Guy; ten years ago, it was General Motors. yes, there's an overlap with the Democrats there, but he's not a partisan Democrat as much as he is a Fight The Power kindof guy. he's said numerous times that he'll go after Kerry, if he thinks Kerry is screwing the little guy. Software | Cleek
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Chris Losinger wrote: Bush changed positions on all of those. i'm sure there are more. Granted, you can't effectively govern without changing your mind on some things.
- I didn't like the steel tariffs, big Bush mistake IMO.
- WMD Commission? Not sure what you're talking about.
- Testifying before 9/11 - come on.
- Dept. of Homeland Sec. - compromise. I think the Dems wanted this didn't they? Should make you happy.
- Ken Lay - this is a flip-flop?
- Chalabi - he ended up being a crook. you should be happy Bush dumped him.
- OBL - last I heard we were still looking for him
- final UN vote on Iraq - Not sure what you're talking about.
- McCain-Feingold - another mistake. nobody's perfect
- AWB - did he say he wouldn't renew it in the past?
Chris Losinger wrote: Kerry has flip-flopped repeatedly on Iraq alone. proof? really. let's see the quotes, the bills and the context for each. Jeez Chris, he voted to give Bush authority to into Iraq, and just a little while later he's against it. What more proof do you need? Chris Losinger wrote: He's got a more liberal voting record in the Senate than Kennedy. again, that's spin. different ranking systems give different results. and again, welcome to america. 'liberal' is not a dirty word and it's not some alien approach to politics: it's the way roughly 50% of the country feels the government should be run. Yes, but he's still rather high in most results. You can't say he's a moderate. 50% are not liberal. More like 25%. 50% aren't conservative either. Neither are dirty words, but don't both sides use them as such? Anyway, I don't want to use it as a dirty word, but rather as a descriptive term. Kerry is a liberal, not the great Satan mind you, but still the opposite of my ideology. Nothing wrong with being a liberal except that I don't agree with liberalism and I think its a messed up way of thinking. Not realistic and not appealing to me. If Kerry wants to be a liberal, that's fine, but the voting public should know where Kerry stands on the issues.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson<
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I can't believe it he tossed off such a sloppy salute. If he were going to do somthing that sappy at least he could have done it properly. Other than that, all I heard was the same Communinist Manefesto crap ("Tax the rich!!!! Feed the poor!!!!!")the Democrats have been trying to sell for the last 30 years. "We are here to save Americans (and the world) from America! Vote for me and the government will be used to solve all your problems for you. "... X| BTW, I think the notion of giving "tax relief" to the middle class but taxing the hell out of the "rich" people who give jobs to the middle class to be an utterly ludicrous notion as well as the notion that heatlh care and education are too expensive because the government isn't doing enough to help pay for them. Liberals are idiots. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
Well I think we ought to at least have a balanced budget and focus on not allowing corporations to escape paying taxes! Everyone should have the health care that members of Congress do. As for compassion, why is there no compassion for veterans who live on the streets or kids who sleep in the gutter and come from broken homes? Why are so many children in foster homes and in orphanages? Life is only sacred until you're born, then you're on your own buddy? Funny, Bush's reltative Lauren Bush is a TRUELY compassionate person. She's a top model for Elite yet she goes to 3rd world coutnries to help feed the poor with the world food program. W Only left the country once and it wasn't to fee the poor...Just saying it, doesn't make it so. :laugh:
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i thought his speech was pretty good. i'd never seen much of him speaking before - i'd only heard the GOP spin that he was wooden and fake and condescending. i didn't see any of that. he seemed sincere and honest and even likeable. he's certainly not as much of a speaker as the other three stars (Clinton, Obama and Edwards), but few are. most importantly, he gave me a reason to vote for him other than Anyone-But-Bush . Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: he seemed sincere and honest and even likeable. I'd hope so, He went to school for it... The problem is, he was trained too well in an obsolescent tradition. He studied oratory and won prizes for it in prep school and college, at St. Paul's School and Yale. When he graduated from Yale, he gave the class oration. As if that's not enough, he was a champion debater too.[^] ~Nitron.
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palbano wrote: So separatism is a good thing then? Schools in the affluent areas would be much better than those in poor communities correct? And you endorse this idea? Our very system of government was predicated on such separation. And, yes, the rich would have better education than the poor. The poor would have to work harder. Being poor sucks. The only responsibility the government has to the poor is to maximize their opportunities to work their way out of it. And that means a healthy, growing economy, with low taxes across the board. Government will never, can never, solve the problems we have with education. The more it tries to solve the problem, the worse the problem will become because government is the problem. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
I disagree that government is the problem, it's parents and their lack of attention to students and their progress in school. If parents spent more time with their kids helping with homework and being involved with school and voting for representatives that pushed for better funding in schools, public schools would improve. I realize propety taxes have a lot to do with it but parents should be vigorously involved in supporting and shaping the education of their kids. Face it, if as much out of pocket money was spend on schools and school activities as is spend on sports, education would be much better. It's about priorities... :(
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Chris Losinger wrote: he seemed sincere and honest and even likeable. I'd hope so, He went to school for it... The problem is, he was trained too well in an obsolescent tradition. He studied oratory and won prizes for it in prep school and college, at St. Paul's School and Yale. When he graduated from Yale, he gave the class oration. As if that's not enough, he was a champion debater too.[^] ~Nitron.
ññòòïðïðB A
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Well I think we ought to at least have a balanced budget and focus on not allowing corporations to escape paying taxes! Everyone should have the health care that members of Congress do. As for compassion, why is there no compassion for veterans who live on the streets or kids who sleep in the gutter and come from broken homes? Why are so many children in foster homes and in orphanages? Life is only sacred until you're born, then you're on your own buddy? Funny, Bush's reltative Lauren Bush is a TRUELY compassionate person. She's a top model for Elite yet she goes to 3rd world coutnries to help feed the poor with the world food program. W Only left the country once and it wasn't to fee the poor...Just saying it, doesn't make it so. :laugh:
I disagree completely. Corporations should not be taxed at all. They should pay penalties for environmental damage but aside from that the only taxation they should be reguired to pay would be for transporting their goods over public roads. adonisv wrote: Everyone should have the health care that members of Congress do. Health care should be up to the individual to provide for themselves. It is no more a right than any other commodity a person needs access to in order to function in a capitalisitic society. adonisv wrote: As for compassion, why is there no compassion for veterans who live on the streets or kids who sleep in the gutter and come from broken homes? Why are so many children in foster homes and in orphanages? Life is only sacred until you're born, then you're on your own buddy? I'm not anti-abortion (although I am anti-roe-v-wade) so I'm immune to that silly argument. I think poverty sucks, and I think the government should do everything possible to maximize people's ability to work their way out of it. Fortunantly, by simply supporting capitalisitic systems, doing that is a very easy thing to accomplish. It doesn't require a lot of complex government programs to do. Capitalism is the best friend the poor have, socialism is their worst enemy. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
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Chris Losinger wrote: he seemed sincere and honest and even likeable. I'd hope so, He went to school for it... The problem is, he was trained too well in an obsolescent tradition. He studied oratory and won prizes for it in prep school and college, at St. Paul's School and Yale. When he graduated from Yale, he gave the class oration. As if that's not enough, he was a champion debater too.[^] ~Nitron.
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startSo what, better than being a mindless DOLT who likes to "dig in the dirt" at this Texas rancb in Crawford. The trush, Bush stole the election and that was a harbinger of bad things to come, recession, 911, Enron collapse, Iraq war. Dubya is the devil. No actually DICK cheney is the devil and Dubya is his hand puppet. Plus the Bush family has a conflict of interest when it comes to oil. They will never lead this country into an alternative fuel economy...:laugh:
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: socialist platform Socialism, communism, modern liberalism, fascism - all variations of the same theme... The distinctions are not significant enough to be concerned with. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
Stan Shannon wrote: The distinctions are not significant enough to be concerned with. I have to say intent is important to me so there are distinctions. Communist government = the government is in control and gives to the people what they need (with of course the leadership needing and receiving more.) Socialist = Yes the government giving to the people what they need. but with some control of the government by the people or at least more equality amongst all people than a communistis gov. Modern Liberalism unfortunatly is much closer to communist but I do not think it is the intent to be so. They are so consummed by their own agenda the do not see they fail to meet standard of a socialist society compared to it is their intent not to. This last statement is to me a core issue of why our nation is so divided. The liberals do not see that encouraging courts to issue court orders to achieve their agenda is dictating law versus having the legisature create or modifies laws is a major issue that conservatives have with their platform. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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I disagree completely. Corporations should not be taxed at all. They should pay penalties for environmental damage but aside from that the only taxation they should be reguired to pay would be for transporting their goods over public roads. adonisv wrote: Everyone should have the health care that members of Congress do. Health care should be up to the individual to provide for themselves. It is no more a right than any other commodity a person needs access to in order to function in a capitalisitic society. adonisv wrote: As for compassion, why is there no compassion for veterans who live on the streets or kids who sleep in the gutter and come from broken homes? Why are so many children in foster homes and in orphanages? Life is only sacred until you're born, then you're on your own buddy? I'm not anti-abortion (although I am anti-roe-v-wade) so I'm immune to that silly argument. I think poverty sucks, and I think the government should do everything possible to maximize people's ability to work their way out of it. Fortunantly, by simply supporting capitalisitic systems, doing that is a very easy thing to accomplish. It doesn't require a lot of complex government programs to do. Capitalism is the best friend the poor have, socialism is their worst enemy. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
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Jason Henderson wrote: But he has flip-flopped on several issues the standard GOP talking points on this are pretty weak. they require the reader to ignore how the Senate works, how situations change over time, and generally they leave out all context (ie. what else was in the bill, was it a procedural vote, were there alternative bills out there, etc). but, just taking all of them superficially and assuming the spin is the truth: if flip-flop is a sin, w's headed for the hot place. Jason Henderson wrote: He is a lib shocking. welcome to america. Jason Henderson wrote: He does want to appease the axis of weasles proof? i know the GOP slime machine keeps saying it, but that doesn't make it true. -c Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: and generally they leave out all context ROFLOL I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Chris Losinger wrote: Bush changed positions on all of those. i'm sure there are more. Granted, you can't effectively govern without changing your mind on some things.
- I didn't like the steel tariffs, big Bush mistake IMO.
- WMD Commission? Not sure what you're talking about.
- Testifying before 9/11 - come on.
- Dept. of Homeland Sec. - compromise. I think the Dems wanted this didn't they? Should make you happy.
- Ken Lay - this is a flip-flop?
- Chalabi - he ended up being a crook. you should be happy Bush dumped him.
- OBL - last I heard we were still looking for him
- final UN vote on Iraq - Not sure what you're talking about.
- McCain-Feingold - another mistake. nobody's perfect
- AWB - did he say he wouldn't renew it in the past?
Chris Losinger wrote: Kerry has flip-flopped repeatedly on Iraq alone. proof? really. let's see the quotes, the bills and the context for each. Jeez Chris, he voted to give Bush authority to into Iraq, and just a little while later he's against it. What more proof do you need? Chris Losinger wrote: He's got a more liberal voting record in the Senate than Kennedy. again, that's spin. different ranking systems give different results. and again, welcome to america. 'liberal' is not a dirty word and it's not some alien approach to politics: it's the way roughly 50% of the country feels the government should be run. Yes, but he's still rather high in most results. You can't say he's a moderate. 50% are not liberal. More like 25%. 50% aren't conservative either. Neither are dirty words, but don't both sides use them as such? Anyway, I don't want to use it as a dirty word, but rather as a descriptive term. Kerry is a liberal, not the great Satan mind you, but still the opposite of my ideology. Nothing wrong with being a liberal except that I don't agree with liberalism and I think its a messed up way of thinking. Not realistic and not appealing to me. If Kerry wants to be a liberal, that's fine, but the voting public should know where Kerry stands on the issues.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson<
Jason Henderson wrote: Neither are dirty words, but don't both sides use them as such? Anyway, I don't want to use it as a dirty word, but rather as a descriptive term. Kerry is a liberal, not the great Satan mind you, but still the opposite of my ideology. Nothing wrong with being a liberal except that I don't agree with liberalism and I think its a messed up way of thinking. Not realistic and not appealing to me. If Kerry wants to be a liberal, that's fine, but the voting public should know where Kerry stands on the issues. Well Said. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Stan Shannon wrote: The distinctions are not significant enough to be concerned with. I have to say intent is important to me so there are distinctions. Communist government = the government is in control and gives to the people what they need (with of course the leadership needing and receiving more.) Socialist = Yes the government giving to the people what they need. but with some control of the government by the people or at least more equality amongst all people than a communistis gov. Modern Liberalism unfortunatly is much closer to communist but I do not think it is the intent to be so. They are so consummed by their own agenda the do not see they fail to meet standard of a socialist society compared to it is their intent not to. This last statement is to me a core issue of why our nation is so divided. The liberals do not see that encouraging courts to issue court orders to achieve their agenda is dictating law versus having the legisature create or modifies laws is a major issue that conservatives have with their platform. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Modern Liberalism unfortunatly is much closer to communist i can't imagine living in a world where this could be even close to meaningful. really, when was the last time you heard anyone in the US call for the state to seize the means of production ? do you think anyone in the Democratic party wants the government to own all the factories ? that's a really frikkin big part of communism. saying something is close to being communism even if it doesn't call for state-owned production is like saying "C++ is really like C, except for all that object stuff!" well, yeah, true. but that "object stuff" is like the whole frikkin point. lots of languages are like C, if you ignore all the differences. Software | Cleek
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Chris Losinger wrote: and generally they leave out all context ROFLOL I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Can you provide any specifics? How would a child provide health care for itself??????????? How does capitalism help the poor?
adonisv wrote: How does capitalism help the poor? By providing a free market economy where they can work hard, improve their lot and never be poor again. How does socialism help the poor? :confused: "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
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Can you provide any specifics? How would a child provide health care for itself??????????? How does capitalism help the poor?
adonisv wrote: How would a child provide health care for itself??????????? Probably the same way they did before Government gave itself the job. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
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adonisv wrote: How does capitalism help the poor? By providing a free market economy where they can work hard, improve their lot and never be poor again. How does socialism help the poor? :confused: "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
Mike Mullikin wrote: By providing a free market economy where they can work hard, improve their lot and never be poor again. Precisely! Thanks... "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Modern Liberalism unfortunatly is much closer to communist i can't imagine living in a world where this could be even close to meaningful. really, when was the last time you heard anyone in the US call for the state to seize the means of production ? do you think anyone in the Democratic party wants the government to own all the factories ? that's a really frikkin big part of communism. saying something is close to being communism even if it doesn't call for state-owned production is like saying "C++ is really like C, except for all that object stuff!" well, yeah, true. but that "object stuff" is like the whole frikkin point. lots of languages are like C, if you ignore all the differences. Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: when was the last time you heard anyone in the US call for the state to seize the means of production Yesterday. All you are doing is proving my point, you miss what is the issues for conservatives. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Jason Henderson wrote: Yeah, with Michael Moore, and Jimmy Carter and the rest of the leftists in your party. Moore's a populist. -- his whole M.O. is Stick Up For The Little Guy . right now, he thinks w is screwing the Little Guy; ten years ago, it was General Motors. yes, there's an overlap with the Democrats there, but he's not a partisan Democrat as much as he is a Fight The Power kindof guy. he's said numerous times that he'll go after Kerry, if he thinks Kerry is screwing the little guy. Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: populist new spelling for fat moron. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times "I don't want a president who is friends with France or Germany" Me Paraphrasing Kerry: I've spoken to many world leaders - they all look at me and say, you've got to win. I just can't tell you who they are. Me
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Chris Losinger wrote: when was the last time you heard anyone in the US call for the state to seize the means of production Yesterday. All you are doing is proving my point, you miss what is the issues for conservatives. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: All you are doing is proving my point, you miss what is the issues for conservatives as far as i can tell, the issue is that conservatives think the country is on an slippery slope to inevitable communism. that never ceases to amuse me. but, you missed my point completely. i'll say as simply as i can: you can't be close to something if you aren't close to what distinguishes it from everything else. Software | Cleek