killer weed!
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Christian Graus wrote: I hope you don't drink alcohol or smoke tobacco I don't. Christian Graus wrote: victimless crime If it were victimless I would not be opposed to it. One just has to take their head out of the sand and look around, you will see victims.
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](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote: One just has to take their head out of the sand and look around, you will see victims. It depends - do you propose that suicide is not a victimless crime, because it is murder ? The majority of suffering as a result of drugs is not because of the drugs, but because of our legal systems response to their existance. The fact that these laws do not reflect common sense is a reflection on politians who are scared to lose the votes of the uninformed. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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I agree with PJ. The world needs less addictive, unhealthy drugs. Not more. :( "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
I agree with this. The question is, how do you make this so ? You can't stop the stuff from existing, now can you ? Prohibition obviously does not work, and our schools are apparently scared to teach morals or responsibility for ones own well being. So where do we go from there ? Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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I agree with this. The question is, how do you make this so ? You can't stop the stuff from existing, now can you ? Prohibition obviously does not work, and our schools are apparently scared to teach morals or responsibility for ones own well being. So where do we go from there ? Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: The question is, how do you make this so ? That's where it gets tough. Here's my rationale for making/keeping it illegal: There are (IMHO) many, many young people who first try pot simply because it is illegal. The old "forbidden fruit" theory. Cigarettes and alcohol are illegal for minors but they're legal for adults so kids desire a "next step" that allows them to rebel. For most kids the first "next step" is all they need. They smoke a little pot through their teens and even early adulthood. They feel like they've rebeled against "the man", they mature and they move on. But what happens if pot were legal? I seriously fear that their first "next step" becomes cocaine, ecstasy or heroin. IMHO it's best to keep something "fairly" tame like pot as the first "next step". Yes - there are those who will get to the "hard stuff" no matter what is legal or illegal - I'm talking majorities and averages here. :) "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
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Christian Graus wrote: The question is, how do you make this so ? That's where it gets tough. Here's my rationale for making/keeping it illegal: There are (IMHO) many, many young people who first try pot simply because it is illegal. The old "forbidden fruit" theory. Cigarettes and alcohol are illegal for minors but they're legal for adults so kids desire a "next step" that allows them to rebel. For most kids the first "next step" is all they need. They smoke a little pot through their teens and even early adulthood. They feel like they've rebeled against "the man", they mature and they move on. But what happens if pot were legal? I seriously fear that their first "next step" becomes cocaine, ecstasy or heroin. IMHO it's best to keep something "fairly" tame like pot as the first "next step". Yes - there are those who will get to the "hard stuff" no matter what is legal or illegal - I'm talking majorities and averages here. :) "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
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Christian Graus wrote: I hope you don't drink alcohol or smoke tobacco I don't. Christian Graus wrote: victimless crime If it were victimless I would not be opposed to it. One just has to take their head out of the sand and look around, you will see victims.
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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Chris Losinger wrote: so why isn't alcohol illegal? why do you not think it's a gateway drug? In a strictly puritan world it probably would be. Alcohol has the benefit of historically being legal in the modern western world. Not to mention it's use in many mainstream religious ceremonies. Catholic communion comes to mind. In other words - The cat is already out of the bag. From a strictly fair vs. unfair comparison there really aren't many (if any) logical reasons why pot is illegal and tobacco and alcohol are not. For me personally, my opinion is highly hypocritical since I do drink on occassion. :-O "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
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Chris Losinger wrote: so why isn't alcohol illegal? why do you not think it's a gateway drug? In a strictly puritan world it probably would be. Alcohol has the benefit of historically being legal in the modern western world. Not to mention it's use in many mainstream religious ceremonies. Catholic communion comes to mind. In other words - The cat is already out of the bag. From a strictly fair vs. unfair comparison there really aren't many (if any) logical reasons why pot is illegal and tobacco and alcohol are not. For me personally, my opinion is highly hypocritical since I do drink on occassion. :-O "The gay marriage thing scared me, but that's only because I thought at first it was mandatory." Jon Stewart
Mike Mullikin wrote: From a strictly fair vs. unfair comparison there really aren't many (if any) logical reasons why pot is illegal and tobacco and alcohol are not. good enough for me. :) Mike Mullikin wrote: For me personally, my opinion is highly hypocritical since I do drink on occassion :beer: Software | Cleek
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PJ Arends wrote: One just has to take their head out of the sand and look around, you will see victims. It depends - do you propose that suicide is not a victimless crime, because it is murder ? The majority of suffering as a result of drugs is not because of the drugs, but because of our legal systems response to their existance. The fact that these laws do not reflect common sense is a reflection on politians who are scared to lose the votes of the uninformed. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
So you are saying that you would have no problem with your daughter getting high on marijuana every night, slowly frying her brains to the point she can't function. Heck, why stop at pot, kids are doing crystal meth, so we might as well legalize that too. That way the goverment can make money off it, can set quality standards so that the meth is pure, not laced with crap. It only kills those dumb enough to over do it, but that is their problem, right? The same can be said for any drug. Legalize them all! It's the law that's the problem, not the drugs. We as a civil society have a responsibility to look after the weak among us. And it is better to stop them from hurting themselves in the first place, rather then picking them up after they have hit rock bottom. We will never have 100% success, but we still have to try. Laws are not there to stop people from having fun, they are there to stop people from hurting themselves and others. I would have thought that you, as a Christian, would realize that. Seems that common sense is not so common after all:sigh:
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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And the rest we just throw away?
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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And the rest we just throw away?
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](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
of course not. but, as with alcohol, not everybody abuses pot. and those people who don't shouldn't (logically, IMO) be forced to forgo it just to protect those who would abuse it. and those who do abuse it (pot, alcohol, sex, gambling, chocolate, etc) need to either get treatment themselves, or be dragged kicking and screaming by their friends and family into a place where they can get help. Software | Cleek
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PJ Arends wrote: why marijuana (or any other hallucinagenic(sp?) drug) Dope is not an hallucinagen. LSD is, magic mushrooms can be ( only were for me the first time, and I took a LOT that time ). If you're anti dope, I hope you don't drink alcohol or smoke tobacco. If you do, you're kind of a hypocrite. Personally, I don't do any of them, but I don't care what is and isn't legal. To me, it's all just a form of natural selection, and I'd rate dope as less of a problem than either of the legal drugs I mentioned. PJ Arends wrote: continue to vote for the political party that holds the same view. You'd prefer to vote for a party that wants to spend all your money prosecuting victimless crime ? Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: victimless crime I've never understood this "victimless crime" thing. Numerous studies have shown that the victims are brain damaged children born to alcoholic/drug abusing mothers, children alcoholic/drug abusive parents, not to mention the hundreds of pointless maimings and deaths of innocent people by drunk drivers and drug crazed people with weapons. Where, please tell me where, anyone can say taking drugs or abusing alcohol is victimless? Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog Hunt The Wumpus RealDevs.Net
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Chris Losinger wrote: because That stupid answer does not explain to me why any one wants to scrammble their brains. I know to many people who seemed to be reasonably intelligent when they were younger and now can't hold down a minimum skill job because their brains are all messed up. Their lives are totally ruined because of drug abuse. From what I have seen, absolutely no good comes from it, and a lot of bad. Drugs are a lose-lose situation. Until someone can give me a logical, well thought out reason why marijuana (or any other hallucinagenic(sp?) drug) is a good or neccesary thing I will continue to oppose them, and continue to vote for the political party that holds the same view. 1
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote: Drugs are a lose-lose situation. I was pretty floored reading this article: http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsecst0802,0,3665289.story?coll=ny-top-headlines[^] [edit]"I'd like to see it widely used in psychiatry," said Harvard psychiatrist John Halpern, a leading proponent. "It is potentially a very valuable tool."[/edit] WTF? What are these people thinking? Oh wait. They're not! Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog Hunt The Wumpus RealDevs.Net
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Christian Graus wrote: victimless crime I've never understood this "victimless crime" thing. Numerous studies have shown that the victims are brain damaged children born to alcoholic/drug abusing mothers, children alcoholic/drug abusive parents, not to mention the hundreds of pointless maimings and deaths of innocent people by drunk drivers and drug crazed people with weapons. Where, please tell me where, anyone can say taking drugs or abusing alcohol is victimless? Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog Hunt The Wumpus RealDevs.Net
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PJ Arends wrote: One just has to take their head out of the sand and look around, you will see victims. It depends - do you propose that suicide is not a victimless crime, because it is murder ? The majority of suffering as a result of drugs is not because of the drugs, but because of our legal systems response to their existance. The fact that these laws do not reflect common sense is a reflection on politians who are scared to lose the votes of the uninformed. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: these laws do not reflect common sense is a reflection on politians who are scared to lose the votes of the uninformed. That is one argument that I really get sick of hearing. The notion that political success is predicated upon pandering to the politically "uninformed" (and therefore that it is in the vested interest of politicians to keep people "uninformed" so that they can be more easily controlled.) That is such an arrogant, elitist attitude. "Oh, if only everyone else were as smart as me, they would all vote the way I vote." What a pile of horse shit. First, I would argue that it is preferable to be uninformed than it is to be disinformed. Most people I know who consider themselves educated and therefore "informed" are more likely than not to have simply bought into one line or another of propaganda and are therefore disinformed and vote accordingly. The so-called "uninformed" (i.e., those not mindlessly accepting of the same propaganda as the disinformed) generally are those who depend on a broader range of life experiences than a single strain of disinformation to base their pollitical judgements on. Most drug related laws do not exist because of an uninformed rabble freightened into submission by pandering politicians. They exist because the typical voter wisely understands that no society is infinitely adaptable to every bad habit and vice that those most predisposed to reject prevailing social mores set around dreaming up. For better or worse, we expect a bit of restraint from those we share our civilization with and we expect our democratically elected officials to respect our concerns. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." James Madison, "Father of the U.S. Constitution"
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PJ Arends wrote: Drugs are a lose-lose situation. I was pretty floored reading this article: http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsecst0802,0,3665289.story?coll=ny-top-headlines[^] [edit]"I'd like to see it widely used in psychiatry," said Harvard psychiatrist John Halpern, a leading proponent. "It is potentially a very valuable tool."[/edit] WTF? What are these people thinking? Oh wait. They're not! Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C# MyXaml MyXaml Blog Hunt The Wumpus RealDevs.Net
From the article: "Doblin, 50, is not a doctor or a researcher, he has extensive experience with the drug, having taken it more than 100 times" And these are the type of people who are trying to push the drugs on society. "It didn't hurt me yet, so make it legal for everyone!"
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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Chris Losinger wrote: i've taken drugs Now that explains a lot.
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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Chris Losinger wrote: i've taken drugs Now that explains a lot.
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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The question of "Where are the victims?" has been answered, you just don't accept the answer. But I am still waiting for someone, anyone, to answer my question of "Why?". So far all I have gotten is mockery and excuses of how the current laws are bad, not why people want to fry their brains use drugs.
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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So you are saying that you would have no problem with your daughter getting high on marijuana every night, slowly frying her brains to the point she can't function. Heck, why stop at pot, kids are doing crystal meth, so we might as well legalize that too. That way the goverment can make money off it, can set quality standards so that the meth is pure, not laced with crap. It only kills those dumb enough to over do it, but that is their problem, right? The same can be said for any drug. Legalize them all! It's the law that's the problem, not the drugs. We as a civil society have a responsibility to look after the weak among us. And it is better to stop them from hurting themselves in the first place, rather then picking them up after they have hit rock bottom. We will never have 100% success, but we still have to try. Laws are not there to stop people from having fun, they are there to stop people from hurting themselves and others. I would have thought that you, as a Christian, would realize that. Seems that common sense is not so common after all:sigh:
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote: We as a civil society have a responsibility to look after the weak among us. Hmm, that's a decidedly _un_right-wing thing to say. Interesting how your views flip-flop back and forth based on what people are talking about. I still haven't found what I'm lookin' for - U2
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Chris Losinger wrote: i've taken drugs Now that explains a lot.
[
](http://www.canucks.com)"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" mYkel - 21 Jun '04 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
You're an idiot. Haven't you heard? Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and those quotes of yours are damn near pride. X| See, responding off-topic with stupid ad-hominem attacks gets us nowhere, and just makes people lose respect for your opinion. As for me, well I don't really mind if you think I'm an idiot. you're Canadian for the rest of the Canadians out there, relax, it's a joke I still haven't found what I'm lookin' for - U2