Bad News........
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I pretty much agree. We are moving into a new component world for software development and basically will be aranging components to build our solutions. A simple picture is the free portals floating around out there like IBuySpy, that for many sites can be a simple key which about anyone in the company can throw the components together and make a site do mostly what they want. A few years down the road, I think the demand for developers will be far less and this includes senior positions and managment. Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"
Rocky Moore wrote: simple picture is the free portals floating around out there like IBuySpy, that for many sites can be a simple key which about anyone in the company can throw the components together and make a site do mostly what they want. If I judge based on some of my clients. The day that they can throw components together and produce a site is a long way off :-D Rocky Moore wrote: A few years down the road, I think the demand for developers will be far less and this includes senior positions and managment. I no longer consider myself a developer. I'm a software solution provider. I create software solutions to business problems or software to automate business processes. I'm frustrated that we haven't yet reached the level of component interoperabilty that I want to see. Michael CP Blog [^]
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The offshore outsourcers will adopt the same tools and techniques. Here in South Africa we have a Proudly South African initialtive, with an easily recognizable logo, etc. to create awareness of keeping money from flowing out of the country. http://www.proudlysouthafrican.co.za/[^] I believe that a solidarity movement like this would be a first step. Or (I don't approve of this, but) a UNION of IT professionals who will punish companies that shed too many jobs over outsourcing. From our perspective here in South Africa, we have the skills, and we need the work. For various reasons many companies do not qualify for large contracts, due to demographic reasons (affirmative action in the strongest sense). So the US/UK market is, for some, the only growth market out there. For many years the USA has enjoyed its island universe of prosperity, and the rest of the world has been through a long walk to stability and an acceptable standard of living. We're still working on that every day. Maybe this is a sign that the hollywood days are fading fast, and membership in the world economy is being grasped (perhaps hastily) by cost-cutting executives, no matter what the long-term cost to the fabric of the US IT services industry. American businesses have made fortunes in the developing world. And now the world is asking for it back.
caractacus wrote: The offshore outsourcers will adopt the same tools and techniques. Of course they will. Competition is good. The winners will be the ones who adapt to the new situation and provide the better service. The consumer will choose where they get their software from. I'm gambling on that I can provide a better, personalised service than the competiton. Isn't that what our free-market economies are all about. As with all evolution. You either adapt our die. And as we improve our tools and techniques, then the more opportunities there will be for all of use to build software solutions. Michael CP Blog [^]
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Rocky Moore wrote: simple picture is the free portals floating around out there like IBuySpy, that for many sites can be a simple key which about anyone in the company can throw the components together and make a site do mostly what they want. If I judge based on some of my clients. The day that they can throw components together and produce a site is a long way off :-D Rocky Moore wrote: A few years down the road, I think the demand for developers will be far less and this includes senior positions and managment. I no longer consider myself a developer. I'm a software solution provider. I create software solutions to business problems or software to automate business processes. I'm frustrated that we haven't yet reached the level of component interoperabilty that I want to see. Michael CP Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote: I'm frustrated that we haven't yet reached the level of component interoperabilty that I want to see. Sad part is when that day arrives, you may not have work any longer as there will be millions of people who can do the very same thing. They easier solutions become to provide, the more people will jump on the gravy train and the faster the train will derail! Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"
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Michael P Butler wrote: Seeing as we aren't likely to take a pay cut, the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. Cool :-) As usual, a sensible unemotional reply from you :-) Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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I do not agree. Most of the companies offshoring their work are looking to increase their pockets. They do not lower the price of their products, they just pull in more revenue to keep their investors happy. It is the Walmart mentality that you want the lowest possible price regardless. If they can find someone who will do the work for far less than you, they jump on it. They have no morals. The only real answer is to build your own products to sell and be done with the greed misters! Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"
Rocky Moore wrote: The only real answer is to build your own products to sell and be done with the greed misters! I totally agree. My current plan is to provide low-cost software solutions to local businesses. "A local (development) shop for local people". Of course, first thing I need to do is reduce my development costs. Michael CP Blog [^]
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Michael P Butler wrote: I'm frustrated that we haven't yet reached the level of component interoperabilty that I want to see. Sad part is when that day arrives, you may not have work any longer as there will be millions of people who can do the very same thing. They easier solutions become to provide, the more people will jump on the gravy train and the faster the train will derail! Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"
Rocky Moore wrote: Sad part is when that day arrives, you may not have work any longer as there will be millions of people who can do the very same thing. They easier solutions become to provide, the more people will jump on the gravy train and the faster the train will derail! Thats the fun part isn't it. Keeping having to adapt to new circumstances, to make yourself stand out from the rest of the crowd by providing a better service. After all, if we didn't like adapting to changing circumstances and technologies, we'd be 'Walmart Greeters" rather than software developers. :-D Michael CP Blog [^]
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Peeps A Few weeks After writing this article http://www.codeproject.com/gen/work/outsource.aspx I have had some bad news.... I have just heard that I am being made redundant in 3 months time. The entire development operation is being shifted overseas. Its obiviously a cost reasoning.. So my question to you all.... Is how do we compete with these guys?? So Im off to go round the jobs sites... JC :((:(:(( John Crocker
That's bad news and Best of Luck for your future. Lost your IT job? Blame HR and your management. Don't blame India, or Indians.[^]
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
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Ramanan Sivan wrote: Just out of curiousity, Overseas where ? Probably India? Ramanan Sivan wrote: I have a feeling I'm not going to like the answer As an Indian working in the US, why would work being outsourced to India worry you? Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Why would work being outsourced to India worry us? Are you serious? Well, it might have something to do with the shrinking availability of jobs for US developers.
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Ramanan Sivan wrote: Just out of curiousity, Overseas where ? Probably India? Ramanan Sivan wrote: I have a feeling I'm not going to like the answer As an Indian working in the US, why would work being outsourced to India worry you? Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: As an Indian working in the US, why would work being outsourced to India worry you? What difference that makes? 1 US Developer salary = 4 Indian Developers salary. So when the time comes to cut, it doesn't matter you are an Indian or Green Card holder or US Citizen. That's sad state right now in the US IT industry. Only benefit I can see for an Indian (who lost the job for outsourcing) who got no Green Card/House then atleast that person can get a job in India.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
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Why would work being outsourced to India worry us? Are you serious? Well, it might have something to do with the shrinking availability of jobs for US developers.
Ryan@SalamanderTechnologies wrote: Why would work being outsourced to India worry us? Are you serious? Well, it might have something to do with the shrinking availability of jobs for US developers. Not you :-) I meant Ramanan Sivan (he is from India). I can understand Americans worrying cause they are losing jobs. But in his case, he is an Indian working in the US :-) Indians working in the US will result in job losses to Americans too, just as outsourcing work does, except that there are far fewer Indians working there compared to the number of people here in India working on outsourced work. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Nishant S wrote: As an Indian working in the US, why would work being outsourced to India worry you? What difference that makes? 1 US Developer salary = 4 Indian Developers salary. So when the time comes to cut, it doesn't matter you are an Indian or Green Card holder or US Citizen. That's sad state right now in the US IT industry. Only benefit I can see for an Indian (who lost the job for outsourcing) who got no Green Card/House then atleast that person can get a job in India.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: What difference that makes? I wasn't saying his job is safe. I found it ironical that an Indian who is working in the US on a work-permit indirectly complains that work is being outsourced to India (his mother-country). I wasn't trying to be rude to Ramanan either, but I thought he had for a moment forgotten where he had come from. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Sorry to hear that. John Crocker wrote: So my question to you all.... Is how do we compete with these guys?? We have to drive the costs of software development down. Make software cheaper so that we can sell more of it to those who can't currently afford it. Seeing as we aren't likely to take a pay cut, the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. As developers we need to add value to ourselves. Improve our communication skills, learn how and why businesses work. Understand our market and customers better. Offer the things that can't be as easily done by overseas workers. Michael CP Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote: Seeing as we aren't likely to take a pay cut, the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. That will help to some degree but the value of that move will decline as they begin to do the same things overseas. ----------------------------------------------------- Bush To Iraqi Militants: 'Please Stop Bringing It On' - The Onion "Moore's prominent presence in the news brings to light some serious questions, such as 'Can't he at least try to look presentable?'" - The Onion
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The offshore outsourcers will adopt the same tools and techniques. Here in South Africa we have a Proudly South African initialtive, with an easily recognizable logo, etc. to create awareness of keeping money from flowing out of the country. http://www.proudlysouthafrican.co.za/[^] I believe that a solidarity movement like this would be a first step. Or (I don't approve of this, but) a UNION of IT professionals who will punish companies that shed too many jobs over outsourcing. From our perspective here in South Africa, we have the skills, and we need the work. For various reasons many companies do not qualify for large contracts, due to demographic reasons (affirmative action in the strongest sense). So the US/UK market is, for some, the only growth market out there. For many years the USA has enjoyed its island universe of prosperity, and the rest of the world has been through a long walk to stability and an acceptable standard of living. We're still working on that every day. Maybe this is a sign that the hollywood days are fading fast, and membership in the world economy is being grasped (perhaps hastily) by cost-cutting executives, no matter what the long-term cost to the fabric of the US IT services industry. American businesses have made fortunes in the developing world. And now the world is asking for it back.
caractacus wrote: American businesses have made fortunes in the developing world. Right on. No one talks about that. Early 90's when the Indian government opened the flood gates to outside companies to enter the country, US companies poured in. No one complained in India about these foreign companies invading them with their products.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
Michael P Butler wrote: Seeing as we aren't likely to take a pay cut, the first thing we need to do is to reduce the time taken to build software. We need to start looking into new techniques and tools that help produce code faster and produce more robust code in the first release. That will help to some degree but the value of that move will decline as they begin to do the same things overseas. ----------------------------------------------------- Bush To Iraqi Militants: 'Please Stop Bringing It On' - The Onion "Moore's prominent presence in the news brings to light some serious questions, such as 'Can't he at least try to look presentable?'" - The Onion
Brit wrote: That will help to some degree but the value of that move will decline as they begin to do the same things overseas. It is a starting point though. It may slow the outsourcing process down a while ( or it may not). However we have to do something to safe-guard our jobs, because I don't see anybody else helping us out. I watched the British Coal industry destroyed by cheaper foreign fuel. (The same for the Steel industry). The same will happen to the IT industry unless we adapt to the new market pressures. And I'd rather do that without having to work for less money :-D Michael CP Blog [^]
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Kant wrote: What difference that makes? I wasn't saying his job is safe. I found it ironical that an Indian who is working in the US on a work-permit indirectly complains that work is being outsourced to India (his mother-country). I wasn't trying to be rude to Ramanan either, but I thought he had for a moment forgotten where he had come from. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: I found it ironical that an Indian who is working in the US Sometimes I feel very happy that India is becoming IT mecca, but on other hand me working in US gives me shivers given shrinking US IT industry. (outsourcing is one of 100 factors for that, but I am against anybody who says outsourcing is the only reason for this downturn.)
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
Ryan@SalamanderTechnologies wrote: Why would work being outsourced to India worry us? Are you serious? Well, it might have something to do with the shrinking availability of jobs for US developers. Not you :-) I meant Ramanan Sivan (he is from India). I can understand Americans worrying cause they are losing jobs. But in his case, he is an Indian working in the US :-) Indians working in the US will result in job losses to Americans too, just as outsourcing work does, except that there are far fewer Indians working there compared to the number of people here in India working on outsourced work. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: I can understand Americans worrying cause they are losing jobs. But in his case, he is an Indian working in the US. Indians working in the US will result in job losses to Americans too, just as outsourcing work does Well, that's a relative statement. If you are in America working, even if you are from another country, be it India or anywhere else, some of the money you are making is still being spent here in America. You have to pay rent, buy food and clothes and thus it is helping America prosper. Ramanan is living in the US and has just as good a chance to lose his job as an American, or do you disagree? - Nick Parker
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Nishant S wrote: I can understand Americans worrying cause they are losing jobs. But in his case, he is an Indian working in the US. Indians working in the US will result in job losses to Americans too, just as outsourcing work does Well, that's a relative statement. If you are in America working, even if you are from another country, be it India or anywhere else, some of the money you are making is still being spent here in America. You have to pay rent, buy food and clothes and thus it is helping America prosper. Ramanan is living in the US and has just as good a chance to lose his job as an American, or do you disagree? - Nick Parker
My Blog | My ArticlesNick Parker wrote: Ramanan is living in the US and has just as good a chance to lose his job as an American, or do you disagree? Yes, but that simply means he comes back to his home country where he can prolly work on one of the outsourced jobs. Unlike an American who loses his job and has no other means to make an income. Again, I am not denying Ramanan's right to feel anxious, but I personally wish he hadn't forgotten where he came from - or maybe I am overly sentimental about such things. Somehow, I had a different picture of the guy :-( Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Nishant S wrote: I found it ironical that an Indian who is working in the US Sometimes I feel very happy that India is becoming IT mecca, but on other hand me working in US gives me shivers given shrinking US IT industry. (outsourcing is one of 100 factors for that, but I am against anybody who says outsourcing is the only reason for this downturn.)
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: Sometimes I feel very happy that India is becoming IT mecca, but on other hand me working in US gives me shivers given shrinking US IT industry. Hi Kant, That's fine that you feel worried, but why should you be scared of returning to India? Is India so unbearable to return to after life in a 1st world country? BTW, my question is more out of curiosity than because of any specific views I have on this subject :-)
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Rocky Moore wrote: Sad part is when that day arrives, you may not have work any longer as there will be millions of people who can do the very same thing. They easier solutions become to provide, the more people will jump on the gravy train and the faster the train will derail! Thats the fun part isn't it. Keeping having to adapt to new circumstances, to make yourself stand out from the rest of the crowd by providing a better service. After all, if we didn't like adapting to changing circumstances and technologies, we'd be 'Walmart Greeters" rather than software developers. :-D Michael CP Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote: we'd be 'Walmart Greeters" rather than software developers There's a future position :) Actually, I think that the gravy train has already flew off the tracks as far as development goes. The days when you can expect to make a professional salary from through software together is heading down hill with over crowding even though the demand is high. However, this is not a problem. Technology is still in its baby state and the vast majority of businesses use little if any of it. The saturation is very low and along with that comes opportunity. The gold nuggets are not laying on the ground anymore but when you dig, there are still large viens available. Most people just walk around the ground looking and never think to pick up a shovel. Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - 2004 Election poll is #33 www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com "We plan for the future, we learn from the past, we live life in the present!"
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caractacus wrote: American businesses have made fortunes in the developing world. Right on. No one talks about that. Early 90's when the Indian government opened the flood gates to outside companies to enter the country, US companies poured in. No one complained in India about these foreign companies invading them with their products.
Promise only what you can do. And then deliver more than what you promised.
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: No one complained in India about these foreign companies invading them with their products. Cause we got better products than what we had :-) Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com