The Final Indignity
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I don't think the fact that it catches a few guilty people makes up for the insult and inconvenience to all the innocent people. I stopped shopping at Fry's years ago for this very reason and that's why I'm unhappy everyone else is starting to do it -- there'll be no place left to go. (Central Computer still doesn't do it and I like them better anyway -- thanks to Fry's for implementing their gestapo policy and helping me to look elsewhere!). You could use the same logic to say that police should be able to stop anyone on the street and submit them to a full search for no reason. I'm also not sure of the rationale that I'm in their store. After I've given them money for something, is it not yet mine? Seems to me that it is my property that they are asking to search (for the possibility that I may have stolen some of theirs). I think that if they are concerned about theft and security, that's fine, but they should not punish and insult all their honest customers in the process. By the way, as I mentioned before, I don't think it is to protect against customers adding stuff to their bag, since you can't really get back into the store proper after you've gone through the checkout; I think it is to prevent store employees from stealing (the checkout guy has his friend come in to buy a bag of corn chips, then the he throws in a few expensive computer chips into the bag). Maybe they should work on seeing what could be done to increase employee loyalty and integrity? I think there are better ways and it would only take a modest amount of thought (as well as respect and consideration of the customer) to devise them. Matt Gerrans
Matt Gerrans wrote: You could use the same logic to say that police should be able to stop anyone on the street and submit them to a full search for no reason. Sometimes they do. I've been driving along and then been subjected to a mile long traffic snarl because the cops were checking everyone's license, registration, and insurance. No reason, just they were bored, I guess. And of course there's the sobriety check points during the holidays in San Diego (or at least when I was living there. hmmmm). Another "you're guilty until proven innocent" example. Although, I certainly see good reason for those! But it's the same concept. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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Wasn't there something on the news recently (in maybe the last month) about a large group of people being burned alive in a store due to this very reason. I just can't remember the country. Gary
I don't recall either - but I think it was in South America.
"If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell Not getting the response you want from a question asked in an online forum: How to Ask Questions the Smart Way!
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I don't know if this phenomenon is statewide, nation-wide or world-wide, but these days more and more stores like to submit customers to a receipt check at the door. This is essentially saying "Thanks for shopping here, but we don't trust you, you filthy criminal." (Actually, it is probably their employees they don't trust, but they are assuming you are colluding with them in your crime). When I approach the exit after making a purchase, I usually simply walk past the jack-booted-thug-for-hire. If he is busy with the other sheep -- er, people, who are submitting to the search, I go unnoticed. If not, the guard may ask "can I see your receipt?" to which I'll reply "can I see your warrant?", or when I'm feeling more taciturn, "no." The look of shock and uncertainty on his face tells me just how rare it is for anyone to challenge this process. (Also, when other people are with me, they get very uneasy, too. Our capacity for docility is an amazing thing.) So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? Do they have the right to detain me? I'm not sure whether these questions would fall under state or federal jurisdiction. Is this search process just popular with stores in California, or is it nation wide? What about those of you in other countries? Anyone else out there offer any resistence? If so, how do you deal with it? Matt Gerrans
It is more of a visible messure to caution against theft. Around me only a few stroes do so on a regular basis (fry's and Sam's) although if some one acts funny then the store security will ask to check when they leave. For it to be theft they must have passed through the doors at least in my city. Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have a legal right to do this? They have the legal right to ask many things. Most likely places like Sam's which are clubs, if you read the fine print you gave them the right. (I assume) Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have the right to detain me? Actually no they do not, now if the store security finds you have stolen goods they probably will anyways and risk any jury to not find them guilty. But they actually have kidnapped you. (I am speaking for my city laws, I just went through citizen's patrol training a little while back and this issue was very clear.) I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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Wasn't there something on the news recently (in maybe the last month) about a large group of people being burned alive in a store due to this very reason. I just can't remember the country. Gary
Paraguay, according CNN[^] 300 death. Some other newspapers[^] (more recent information?) 426 dead. CNN: Some witnesses said victims were not able to escape the flames because the exits had been locked, possibly to avoid robberies. "I ran toward the main door, but it was closed," survivor Esther Benitez told The Associated Press from her hospital bed. "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning." - Robert Cringley
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I don't know if this phenomenon is statewide, nation-wide or world-wide, but these days more and more stores like to submit customers to a receipt check at the door. This is essentially saying "Thanks for shopping here, but we don't trust you, you filthy criminal." (Actually, it is probably their employees they don't trust, but they are assuming you are colluding with them in your crime). When I approach the exit after making a purchase, I usually simply walk past the jack-booted-thug-for-hire. If he is busy with the other sheep -- er, people, who are submitting to the search, I go unnoticed. If not, the guard may ask "can I see your receipt?" to which I'll reply "can I see your warrant?", or when I'm feeling more taciturn, "no." The look of shock and uncertainty on his face tells me just how rare it is for anyone to challenge this process. (Also, when other people are with me, they get very uneasy, too. Our capacity for docility is an amazing thing.) So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? Do they have the right to detain me? I'm not sure whether these questions would fall under state or federal jurisdiction. Is this search process just popular with stores in California, or is it nation wide? What about those of you in other countries? Anyone else out there offer any resistence? If so, how do you deal with it? Matt Gerrans
Our local Wal-Mart used to do this on occasion. The first time they tried this with me, I walked over to the service desk, and insisted on an immediate refund. I told the manager that every time I came into their store, and they were executing searches, I would walk out and shop in one of their competitor's stores that day, even if I had to drive to the next town (30 minutes). This infuriates me. Like you, it feels like they are accusing me of being a criminal without cause. Matt Gerrans wrote: So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? I don't know if they have a legal right to do this or not. The store is not a governmental body, so the Constitutional prohibition against illegal search and siezure would not seem to apply. Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have the right to detain me? I think the more appropriate question is: Can they detain me? If they're not a cop, they most certainly are not going to physically detain me. I will assume that I am in the process of being assaulted, and react accordingly. In most ways, I try to live and let live. This situation, however, is another example of the way civil behavior keeps being wittled away. Store owners, rather than opting for better security against shoplifting, choose the simpler route of harassing and insulting all of their customers. Final note: My Wal-Mart seems to have abandoned this practice, after a substantial uproar in the local newspaper about it.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
It is more of a visible messure to caution against theft. Around me only a few stroes do so on a regular basis (fry's and Sam's) although if some one acts funny then the store security will ask to check when they leave. For it to be theft they must have passed through the doors at least in my city. Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have a legal right to do this? They have the legal right to ask many things. Most likely places like Sam's which are clubs, if you read the fine print you gave them the right. (I assume) Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have the right to detain me? Actually no they do not, now if the store security finds you have stolen goods they probably will anyways and risk any jury to not find them guilty. But they actually have kidnapped you. (I am speaking for my city laws, I just went through citizen's patrol training a little while back and this issue was very clear.) I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Actually no they do not, now if the store security finds you have stolen goods they probably will anyways and risk any jury to not find them guilty. But they actually have kidnapped you. (I am speaking for my city laws, I just went through citizen's patrol training a little while back and this issue was very clear.) In Brazil, any citizen that caughts someone commiting a crime, can arrest the criminal until the police comes, but the police needs to be called immediately. If the person was not a criminal, or there's not enough proof of it, the citizen can be accused of "false crime communication", with very light penalties, tipically a fine of a minimum wage (~US$80). In real life, someone can rob you, kill you and no one will do nothing. Often even the police won't. Yes, even I am blogging now!
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I don't know if this phenomenon is statewide, nation-wide or world-wide, but these days more and more stores like to submit customers to a receipt check at the door. This is essentially saying "Thanks for shopping here, but we don't trust you, you filthy criminal." (Actually, it is probably their employees they don't trust, but they are assuming you are colluding with them in your crime). When I approach the exit after making a purchase, I usually simply walk past the jack-booted-thug-for-hire. If he is busy with the other sheep -- er, people, who are submitting to the search, I go unnoticed. If not, the guard may ask "can I see your receipt?" to which I'll reply "can I see your warrant?", or when I'm feeling more taciturn, "no." The look of shock and uncertainty on his face tells me just how rare it is for anyone to challenge this process. (Also, when other people are with me, they get very uneasy, too. Our capacity for docility is an amazing thing.) So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? Do they have the right to detain me? I'm not sure whether these questions would fall under state or federal jurisdiction. Is this search process just popular with stores in California, or is it nation wide? What about those of you in other countries? Anyone else out there offer any resistence? If so, how do you deal with it? Matt Gerrans
You might want to look at this. Most of these "jack-booted-thug-for-hire" don't give shoppers a hard time and ought to be looking to see if high priced items are accounted for, not toilet paper. Otherwise, I cut them slack because they are just doing their job. I have only seen one instance where a fake-cop was harrassing some one and that was about 7 years ago on the public trolley. I never saw him again. Come to think about it, I don't shop very often at stores that do this like WalMart, Costco and Fry's.
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I don't know if this phenomenon is statewide, nation-wide or world-wide, but these days more and more stores like to submit customers to a receipt check at the door. This is essentially saying "Thanks for shopping here, but we don't trust you, you filthy criminal." (Actually, it is probably their employees they don't trust, but they are assuming you are colluding with them in your crime). When I approach the exit after making a purchase, I usually simply walk past the jack-booted-thug-for-hire. If he is busy with the other sheep -- er, people, who are submitting to the search, I go unnoticed. If not, the guard may ask "can I see your receipt?" to which I'll reply "can I see your warrant?", or when I'm feeling more taciturn, "no." The look of shock and uncertainty on his face tells me just how rare it is for anyone to challenge this process. (Also, when other people are with me, they get very uneasy, too. Our capacity for docility is an amazing thing.) So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? Do they have the right to detain me? I'm not sure whether these questions would fall under state or federal jurisdiction. Is this search process just popular with stores in California, or is it nation wide? What about those of you in other countries? Anyone else out there offer any resistence? If so, how do you deal with it? Matt Gerrans
The trend among companies providing products and services to the general public has been increasingly moving away from "the customer is always right", i.e., a dedication to customer satisfaction, and more towards, "the customer is an extreme PITA, let's deal with them as little as possible, and do so in the way that is most convenient to us regardless of how it affects their shopping experience." I'm the first one to proclaim that companies owe nothing to anyone but the bottom line profitability of their enterprise. However, this prevailing attitude is short term thinking as it can, and frequently does, result in long term customer (and therefore revenue) loss. This[^] is an example of the ongoing trend of complete disregard businesses are showing towards customer satisfaction. Eventually, some companies will start making "customer service and satisfaction" their competitive edge against the otherwise apathetic competition, and will doubtless make great profits from it. And I will actively support such businesses. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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The trend among companies providing products and services to the general public has been increasingly moving away from "the customer is always right", i.e., a dedication to customer satisfaction, and more towards, "the customer is an extreme PITA, let's deal with them as little as possible, and do so in the way that is most convenient to us regardless of how it affects their shopping experience." I'm the first one to proclaim that companies owe nothing to anyone but the bottom line profitability of their enterprise. However, this prevailing attitude is short term thinking as it can, and frequently does, result in long term customer (and therefore revenue) loss. This[^] is an example of the ongoing trend of complete disregard businesses are showing towards customer satisfaction. Eventually, some companies will start making "customer service and satisfaction" their competitive edge against the otherwise apathetic competition, and will doubtless make great profits from it. And I will actively support such businesses. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
Nice article Christopher. Best, Jerry
Contrary to the cliche, genuinely nice guys most often finish first or very near it.--Malcolm Forbes
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Nice article Christopher. Best, Jerry
Contrary to the cliche, genuinely nice guys most often finish first or very near it.--Malcolm Forbes
Thanks, Jerry. Needless to say, I'll be eating elsewhere in the future! :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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I don't know if this phenomenon is statewide, nation-wide or world-wide, but these days more and more stores like to submit customers to a receipt check at the door. This is essentially saying "Thanks for shopping here, but we don't trust you, you filthy criminal." (Actually, it is probably their employees they don't trust, but they are assuming you are colluding with them in your crime). When I approach the exit after making a purchase, I usually simply walk past the jack-booted-thug-for-hire. If he is busy with the other sheep -- er, people, who are submitting to the search, I go unnoticed. If not, the guard may ask "can I see your receipt?" to which I'll reply "can I see your warrant?", or when I'm feeling more taciturn, "no." The look of shock and uncertainty on his face tells me just how rare it is for anyone to challenge this process. (Also, when other people are with me, they get very uneasy, too. Our capacity for docility is an amazing thing.) So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? Do they have the right to detain me? I'm not sure whether these questions would fall under state or federal jurisdiction. Is this search process just popular with stores in California, or is it nation wide? What about those of you in other countries? Anyone else out there offer any resistence? If so, how do you deal with it? Matt Gerrans
If I ever got asked I would comply but I would demand a manager came down to check my receipt. If they want to waste my time, fine, but I will waste theirs.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Putting the laughter back into slaughter
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Matt Gerrans wrote: I don't know if this phenomenon is statewide, nation-wide or world-wide, but these days more and more stores like to submit customers to a receipt check at the door. This has been the case with Sam's Club, which is a club rather than a retail store, since it opened. The Home Depot and Lowes do it too, but not as often. Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have a legal right to do this? Certainly they do. It's called inventory control, or merchandise retention? Matt Gerrans wrote: Do I have the right to refuse? Sure you can, but for reasons other than being a pain, why would you want to? They are trying to keep products from leaving the store unpaid for. If too many five-finger discounts are given, a store-wide price increase is given to cover the loss. I see nothing wrong with it. If you've nothing to hide, it should be a non-issue. Another aspect of this that is often and conveniently overlooked by folks is that while they are seeing if you have too many items in your basket, they are also checking to see if you are leaving with everything you paid for. Read here and here for another take.
"When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." - Gracie Allen
DavidCrow wrote: If you've nothing to hide, it should be a non-issue So, if police officers arrest you and search your car only to make sure you are not carrying weapons or drugs, without legitimate reasons, you think this is OK, since you have nothing to hide? -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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DavidCrow wrote: If you've nothing to hide, it should be a non-issue So, if police officers arrest you and search your car only to make sure you are not carrying weapons or drugs, without legitimate reasons, you think this is OK, since you have nothing to hide? -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
- The topic of discussion was searching a bag or basket while leaving a store. Comparing that to having your car searched by police officers is like the old apples vs. oranges adage. Other than the word "search" the whole premise is different. 2) If indeed I've done nothing wrong and therefore have nothing to hide, why would it not be OK? So it cost me a few extra minutes, big deal. So I had to wait behind someone that was being searched, big deal. If that small bit of time is all it costs to stave off a potential crime, I'm all for it. Why is my life/time so important that I cannot afford a small bit of inconvenience to help others? 3) Whether your car is searched by police officers, or your bag is searched by a store employee, it will indeed be done for legitimate reasons (what you consider legitimate is but a small subset of what a trained officer considers legitimate). The police officer is searching the car because he already has reason(s) to believe that something is not right. Once the driver starts acting suspicious (innocent people do not act suspicious), legitimacy has been raised and the officer will no doubt look around. It's a good thing that car/driver was searched, because he was on his way to the bank/store/airport to commit a crime. Had the driver/passengers not shown any of the tell-tale signs, they would have not been bothered. Had the search not taken place, that officer would surely be the target of insult for allowing the crime to happen (witness: He was swerving, his eyes were glossed over and the license plate was obscurred. Why was he not searched?). The store employee that is searching the bag is doing so for two reasons: one is to make sure you are not trying to leave without paying for an item, the other is to make sure you are not leaving anything behind that you did pay for. Folks that complain about this are the very same ones that would have driven home only to discover that part of their merchandise was left on the store's counter, and then it becomes the store's fault for not ensuring that they got home with everything they paid for.
"When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." - Gracie Allen
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It is more of a visible messure to caution against theft. Around me only a few stroes do so on a regular basis (fry's and Sam's) although if some one acts funny then the store security will ask to check when they leave. For it to be theft they must have passed through the doors at least in my city. Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have a legal right to do this? They have the legal right to ask many things. Most likely places like Sam's which are clubs, if you read the fine print you gave them the right. (I assume) Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have the right to detain me? Actually no they do not, now if the store security finds you have stolen goods they probably will anyways and risk any jury to not find them guilty. But they actually have kidnapped you. (I am speaking for my city laws, I just went through citizen's patrol training a little while back and this issue was very clear.) I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Actually no they do not...But they actually have kidnapped you. (I am speaking for my city laws, I just went through citizen's patrol training a little while back and this issue was very clear.) It's spelled out very plainly in the club's membership that the store has the right to search your bags, even those with paid-for merchandise, and they have the right to detain you if you refuse to have your bag(s) searched. Most folks are unaware of this becuase that do not read the entire club membership before signing. However, these rights are very different with retail stores (which may be what your citizen's patrol training was eluding to).
"When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." - Gracie Allen
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Our local Wal-Mart used to do this on occasion. The first time they tried this with me, I walked over to the service desk, and insisted on an immediate refund. I told the manager that every time I came into their store, and they were executing searches, I would walk out and shop in one of their competitor's stores that day, even if I had to drive to the next town (30 minutes). This infuriates me. Like you, it feels like they are accusing me of being a criminal without cause. Matt Gerrans wrote: So, the question I have is regarding the legalities of this thing. Do they have a legal right to do this? Do I have the right to refuse? I don't know if they have a legal right to do this or not. The store is not a governmental body, so the Constitutional prohibition against illegal search and siezure would not seem to apply. Matt Gerrans wrote: Do they have the right to detain me? I think the more appropriate question is: Can they detain me? If they're not a cop, they most certainly are not going to physically detain me. I will assume that I am in the process of being assaulted, and react accordingly. In most ways, I try to live and let live. This situation, however, is another example of the way civil behavior keeps being wittled away. Store owners, rather than opting for better security against shoplifting, choose the simpler route of harassing and insulting all of their customers. Final note: My Wal-Mart seems to have abandoned this practice, after a substantial uproar in the local newspaper about it.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote: Store owners, rather than opting for better security against shoplifting, choose the simpler route of harassing and insulting all of their customers. And what other security measures would you like to see implemented? They already have cameras on the ceiling, sensors on electronic items, clothing, media, guns, and people walking around looking for shoplifters. As I see it, the only thing left is to compare receipts with bag contents.
"When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." - Gracie Allen
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Actually no they do not...But they actually have kidnapped you. (I am speaking for my city laws, I just went through citizen's patrol training a little while back and this issue was very clear.) It's spelled out very plainly in the club's membership that the store has the right to search your bags, even those with paid-for merchandise, and they have the right to detain you if you refuse to have your bag(s) searched. Most folks are unaware of this becuase that do not read the entire club membership before signing. However, these rights are very different with retail stores (which may be what your citizen's patrol training was eluding to).
"When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." - Gracie Allen
DavidCrow wrote: It's spelled out very plainly in the club's membership Fry's, Lowes do not have memberships. I took the question to be any business, not just clubs. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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DavidCrow wrote: It's spelled out very plainly in the club's membership Fry's, Lowes do not have memberships. I took the question to be any business, not just clubs. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I took the question to be any business, not just clubs. Fair enough. Unlike I did with Sam's, I've not yet had a chance to speak with (legal) counsel at Lowe's.
"When I was born I was so surprised that I didn't talk for a year and a half." - Gracie Allen
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You might want to look at this. Most of these "jack-booted-thug-for-hire" don't give shoppers a hard time and ought to be looking to see if high priced items are accounted for, not toilet paper. Otherwise, I cut them slack because they are just doing their job. I have only seen one instance where a fake-cop was harrassing some one and that was about 7 years ago on the public trolley. I never saw him again. Come to think about it, I don't shop very often at stores that do this like WalMart, Costco and Fry's.
There were so many lengthy article links, it took a while before I had time to catch up. But the link here seems completely irrelevant. Are you relying on the the logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Fear" here? What's the connection? Because criminals exist in the world, we should all be willing to submit to searches at at any time and by anyone who suspects us? By the way, I don't have a beef against the poor guards who are "just doing their job" as much as I do against the corporations who decide that customers are criminals, or at least suspect. Matt Gerrans
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There were so many lengthy article links, it took a while before I had time to catch up. But the link here seems completely irrelevant. Are you relying on the the logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Fear" here? What's the connection? Because criminals exist in the world, we should all be willing to submit to searches at at any time and by anyone who suspects us? By the way, I don't have a beef against the poor guards who are "just doing their job" as much as I do against the corporations who decide that customers are criminals, or at least suspect. Matt Gerrans
Matt Gerrans wrote: But the link here seems completely irrelevant. I hardly think so. Are you relying on the the logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Fear" here? No, I am simply pointing out that there is a rational basis for the checks that stores use to discourage shoplifting. Where are you getting "Appeal to Fear" from? What's the connection? Because criminals exist in the world, we should all be willing to submit to searches at at any time and by anyone who suspects us? That is quite a leap. I think there is a difference between someone checking your shopping bag to make sure that what is in you bag is on your receipt and being stopped indiscriminately and searched. Furthermore, nobody has said that you must shop at these stores. By the way, I don't have a beef against the poor guards who are "just doing their job" as much as I do against the corporations who decide that customers are criminals, or at least suspect. Corporations haven't "decided" that customers are criminals (or suspects). They are simply protecting their business and most of these businesses treat everyone exactly the same to avoid discrimination lawsuits. Probably one of the most famous of kind of lawsuit is the class action suit against [Denny's](<a)[^] about 12 years ago. What I am trying to say is that those companies who stop everyone are more fair than those companies that engage in "profiling". I never said that I agreed with the practice of stopping and checking bags. I am saying that I understand the reasoning for it (calling customers criminals is not a reason, protecting profits is). I also noted that I tend not to shop at these stores. If you don't like how you are treated at a store, stop going to it. Write the manager a letter explaining your grievance rationally and your intention to stop shopping at his store (most managers laugh at such letters because they are filled with rants, hyperbole and exclamation marks--but they do take seriously letters which are sober and well-reasoned... unless they are jackasses!)