Should Hitler be a person?
-
No one has a right to the situation they were raised in, whether it is good or bad. What happened in the world to put it in the place it was when you were born can hardly be considered. Debt can really only be paid back directly from offender to victim. I'm not saying you shouldn't reach out and help people up, but it's best not to look at it as payment for someone elses past wrong, but rather just helping someone out who needs it. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
I've had the a similar experience with a German girl I "dated". Like John Cleese says in Fawlty Towers; Don't mention the war! I tried a few times and all her answers were either thin lipped and terse as only a German can do or full on rants about the world labelling her, for being German, a killer. In retrospect I see her reactions are similar to mine when people ask me about apartheid in South Africa. I am white and was born in 1979 so had some part in it. People want to know how I could do what we did, or how I could have stood idly by. And it's hard to discuss it frankly and dispassionately*. Partly because I'm used to being judged before I open my mouth. Partly because I am ashamed. Partly because I simply was unaware of what the hell was going on and that's no good either. It's hard to reconcile something that people have already pigeonholed for you. * That is the hard bit. To talk about it dispassionately. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
The other thing to remember is that history is written by the victors. While this in no way excuses the Nazis for what they did, what is the one time in history you hear very little about? Answer: the post-war time in Europe. We never hear about millions of German POW's - regular army - not the Nazi's that starved to death due to lack of food in the holding camps. The Allies were not so kind to the Germans after the war, justifyiably some might say, but still if we took our piece of flesh then, then I think Germans have paid enough and shouldn't be labeled.
-
Very dangerous, baas. Master no go into jungle alone. ;) South Africa is really tame compared to the rest of Africa. There are no wild lions or cheetahs or tigers... wait, we don't have those at all... roaming the bush. They are all locked up in game reserves. The rest of the land is farm land or industrial. More chance of getting bitten by a shark than a lion here in S.A (unless you are one of those tourists who get out of game vechiles or climb over fences and try to pet the nice yet surprisingly hungry kitty for the photop.) Far more danger from our fellow man in S.A. than wild jungle kings. And we have about a kilometer strip of jungle in the whole of S.A. Mainly grassland ("veld" in the local lingo). :) Over the border into Zimbabwe, Zambia and Mozambique it gets a bit more dicey, but not a helluva lot. In Namibia you'll die of thirst in the dunes before you get bitten by anything or die in a car accident on their crazy roads. About the only time you need to worry is if you are on a dam or lake with hippo (crocodiles are pretty harmless if you practice common sense). Hippos are dangerous, kill more people every year than crocs, lions or snakes. I've had a few scares with hippos on Kariba in Zim. And I once got sunburnt on a dam in S.A. while my uncle got pricked by a guppie and his thumb swelled up, dangerous fish those, damned guppies. :-D I guess snakes can be a danger, though I personally have never had trouble with them on any of the hikes I have done. Chris will tell you Australia is far worse for snakes and spiders. The cities are more dangerous here. Really, practice safe se... I mean common sense and you won't get in trouble. As for the weather it's pretty grand all year round at sea level (winter just past the coldest it got here in Cape Town was 2 celcius and that was at night with a stiff breeze while going down hill.) In the interior it can get pretty cold during winter, -15 celcius being about the coldest I have ever seen and that was in some pon dokie town in the middle of nowhere (called Sutherland, hottest and coldest inhabited place in S.A). But I'd say -4 is generally the coldest it gets in populated interior regions. It snows on the tops of mountains. I wear a t-shirt and shorts all year round, though I'm a bit weird. A jersey and some jeans will get you by fine. So how are them bears like in Canada, eh? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Ga
Da bears in Canada, eh? Pretty harmless, except for the grizzlies and polar bears. Although where I lived neither of those were a problem. Grizzlies can be quite frightening. Alot of people have specially trained dogs that accompany them in the woods in order to alert to the presence of the bears. Polar bears are quite menacing. They are known to track humans across the arctic for days. Where I lived, we had black bears and some brown bears. Black bears are only dangerous if they have young cubs around or are hungry or startled. Once or twice I managed to run into one or two of them while cycling mountain bike trails in the bush. I was never attacked. The university I was working at had extensive wilderness on campus filled with blueberries that would attract the bears. They can be unnerving and campus security always posted warning of sightings. Generally when a bear becomes a 'nuisance bear' and keeps venturing into the city, the Ministry of Natural Resources comes and traps and then relocates the bear. It is not uncommon for the bear to make his way back to town and become a re-offender. They come for the McDonald's grease bins. One of the more frightening things are cougars. There have been several sightings and these are large cats than can be quite dangerous and are known to attack humans. I used to have to walk a wilderness trail to get home from the university - which was generally at night. During one period of frequent cougar sightings I used to have to walk (translation:run really fast) this damned trail late at night all the time. I was always a bit uneasy about that. We also have a poisonous species of snake. I had encountered wolves before but at the time I had a Black Labrador retriever and a German Shepard and (fortunately) wasn't bothered by them. They can be intimidating. Curious uh, I mean randy moose can also pose a problem to cyclists. :suss: Aside from that it's pretty tame! Temperatures are not worth noting or experiencing. Probably more dangerous than animals. I have experienced -40C (no wind-chill) and that is not fun - it's quite life-threatening. Ah home.... John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
-
I've had the a similar experience with a German girl I "dated". Like John Cleese says in Fawlty Towers; Don't mention the war! I tried a few times and all her answers were either thin lipped and terse as only a German can do or full on rants about the world labelling her, for being German, a killer. In retrospect I see her reactions are similar to mine when people ask me about apartheid in South Africa. I am white and was born in 1979 so had some part in it. People want to know how I could do what we did, or how I could have stood idly by. And it's hard to discuss it frankly and dispassionately*. Partly because I'm used to being judged before I open my mouth. Partly because I am ashamed. Partly because I simply was unaware of what the hell was going on and that's no good either. It's hard to reconcile something that people have already pigeonholed for you. * That is the hard bit. To talk about it dispassionately. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Gassho rei, Watson-san!" Crikey! ain't life grand?
I'm half German, and apart from enduring speechs from my grandmother about how Hitler may have been mean to Jews, but he did wonders for the road system, I don't have any hangups about discussing it. I guess because I did not grow up there, I don't consider myself German, as such. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
-
Da bears in Canada, eh? Pretty harmless, except for the grizzlies and polar bears. Although where I lived neither of those were a problem. Grizzlies can be quite frightening. Alot of people have specially trained dogs that accompany them in the woods in order to alert to the presence of the bears. Polar bears are quite menacing. They are known to track humans across the arctic for days. Where I lived, we had black bears and some brown bears. Black bears are only dangerous if they have young cubs around or are hungry or startled. Once or twice I managed to run into one or two of them while cycling mountain bike trails in the bush. I was never attacked. The university I was working at had extensive wilderness on campus filled with blueberries that would attract the bears. They can be unnerving and campus security always posted warning of sightings. Generally when a bear becomes a 'nuisance bear' and keeps venturing into the city, the Ministry of Natural Resources comes and traps and then relocates the bear. It is not uncommon for the bear to make his way back to town and become a re-offender. They come for the McDonald's grease bins. One of the more frightening things are cougars. There have been several sightings and these are large cats than can be quite dangerous and are known to attack humans. I used to have to walk a wilderness trail to get home from the university - which was generally at night. During one period of frequent cougar sightings I used to have to walk (translation:run really fast) this damned trail late at night all the time. I was always a bit uneasy about that. We also have a poisonous species of snake. I had encountered wolves before but at the time I had a Black Labrador retriever and a German Shepard and (fortunately) wasn't bothered by them. They can be intimidating. Curious uh, I mean randy moose can also pose a problem to cyclists. :suss: Aside from that it's pretty tame! Temperatures are not worth noting or experiencing. Probably more dangerous than animals. I have experienced -40C (no wind-chill) and that is not fun - it's quite life-threatening. Ah home.... John Theal Physicist at Large Got CAD? http://www.presenter3d.com[^]
I've been in cougar country at night lots of times, and I've seen mountain lion tracks in my own yard. Can be scary to think about, but I'm used to it. Interestingly, although I've seen plenty of tracks, I've never actually seen a wild cougar. It's rare to see them unless they want you to. I used to have to walk (translation:run really fast) this damned trail late at night all the time. Not smart to run - cats have an instinct that tells them that if something is running and it's not substantially bigger than them, that it's potential food and they should chase it. IMO better to walk and be on the trail longer than to run and risk triggering this instinct.
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower -
I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
He was a person, screwed up as he was. There's no good reason to oppose a film that shows his personal side, as long as it sticks to the facts. Maybe it will help us better understand the history of the situation, and give us insights that could help us prevent such a situation from occurring again.
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower -
Very dangerous, baas. Master no go into jungle alone. ;) South Africa is really tame compared to the rest of Africa. There are no wild lions or cheetahs or tigers... wait, we don't have those at all... roaming the bush. They are all locked up in game reserves. The rest of the land is farm land or industrial. More chance of getting bitten by a shark than a lion here in S.A (unless you are one of those tourists who get out of game vechiles or climb over fences and try to pet the nice yet surprisingly hungry kitty for the photop.) Far more danger from our fellow man in S.A. than wild jungle kings. And we have about a kilometer strip of jungle in the whole of S.A. Mainly grassland ("veld" in the local lingo). :) Over the border into Zimbabwe, Zambia and Mozambique it gets a bit more dicey, but not a helluva lot. In Namibia you'll die of thirst in the dunes before you get bitten by anything or die in a car accident on their crazy roads. About the only time you need to worry is if you are on a dam or lake with hippo (crocodiles are pretty harmless if you practice common sense). Hippos are dangerous, kill more people every year than crocs, lions or snakes. I've had a few scares with hippos on Kariba in Zim. And I once got sunburnt on a dam in S.A. while my uncle got pricked by a guppie and his thumb swelled up, dangerous fish those, damned guppies. :-D I guess snakes can be a danger, though I personally have never had trouble with them on any of the hikes I have done. Chris will tell you Australia is far worse for snakes and spiders. The cities are more dangerous here. Really, practice safe se... I mean common sense and you won't get in trouble. As for the weather it's pretty grand all year round at sea level (winter just past the coldest it got here in Cape Town was 2 celcius and that was at night with a stiff breeze while going down hill.) In the interior it can get pretty cold during winter, -15 celcius being about the coldest I have ever seen and that was in some pon dokie town in the middle of nowhere (called Sutherland, hottest and coldest inhabited place in S.A). But I'd say -4 is generally the coldest it gets in populated interior regions. It snows on the tops of mountains. I wear a t-shirt and shorts all year round, though I'm a bit weird. A jersey and some jeans will get you by fine. So how are them bears like in Canada, eh? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: "Ga
John, you can tell Paul grew up in a city ;) I grew up on a normal farm, not a game reserve or any such thing. We had a large population of leopard in the area. I once was camping alone with my dogs, when a leopard came up to the tent. The dogs refused to go outside, and were quivering. I only had a little .22 rifle with me. I sang in a loud voice and generally made a lot of noise. The next morning my suspicions were confirmed when I saw a fresh leopard stool outside the tent. I have many such stories. While lion were not permanent residents on the farm, they did pass through. When they did we didn't ride horses or motorbikes until we were sure they had passed. Hippo's passed through more often, sometimes wreaking havoc with crops. We had leopard take goats and young calves on occasion, but never went after them. After all - the wildlife was the reason we loved that farm in the mountains so much. Changing from farming to ecotourism was easy in fact, with our main market being other Saffa's from the cities. Even though SA is their home country area's such as the one I was fortunate to grow up in were unusual to them, and just like foreign tourists they'd try to bring their expensive BMW's down our dusty roads :-D Whether talking about people or the country itself, it's almost impossible to describe every aspect. Makes it all the more worthwhile to visit :)
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
John, you can tell Paul grew up in a city ;) I grew up on a normal farm, not a game reserve or any such thing. We had a large population of leopard in the area. I once was camping alone with my dogs, when a leopard came up to the tent. The dogs refused to go outside, and were quivering. I only had a little .22 rifle with me. I sang in a loud voice and generally made a lot of noise. The next morning my suspicions were confirmed when I saw a fresh leopard stool outside the tent. I have many such stories. While lion were not permanent residents on the farm, they did pass through. When they did we didn't ride horses or motorbikes until we were sure they had passed. Hippo's passed through more often, sometimes wreaking havoc with crops. We had leopard take goats and young calves on occasion, but never went after them. After all - the wildlife was the reason we loved that farm in the mountains so much. Changing from farming to ecotourism was easy in fact, with our main market being other Saffa's from the cities. Even though SA is their home country area's such as the one I was fortunate to grow up in were unusual to them, and just like foreign tourists they'd try to bring their expensive BMW's down our dusty roads :-D Whether talking about people or the country itself, it's almost impossible to describe every aspect. Makes it all the more worthwhile to visit :)
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
Ah yes, the glorious Lowveld. Heaven in 1/3 of a province. BTW - Kruger National Park is in the Lowveld :cool: Paul Watson wrote: The rest is far more civilised and sanitised Read "industrial and smoggy" :rolleyes:
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog Photography -
I think it is a good idea to treat Hitler frankly. It will help Germans to reconcile with their history. I have always wondered - what is the difference between Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm? Wilhelm is nowhere near as villified as Hitler. Both started brutal wars in which millions died. Some say WWI was started by a web of complicated alliances, but that is only part of the story. Wilhelm engaged in an arms race with Britain for control of the seas, and attempted to create a oligarchy in Germany. Now he just portayed as a bumbling leader who got in over his head. But I can't believe that he was all that blameless.
Jeff Bogan wrote: what is the difference between Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm? there are many differences! Here are some: * The Kaiser didn't plan an annexionist strategy as Hitler did * There was a kind of democracy during the 2nd Reich, not at all during the 3rd. * There were no concentration camp during WW1. * There was no genocide of Jews and Gypsies[^] (IMHO the forgotten holocaust) during WW1 * There was no Gestapo, no SD, no Einsatzgruppe [^] in the second Reich. * There was no "Operation T4"[^] during the second Reich * The Kaiser was dominated by his generals, Hitler dominated his generals I don't say the Kaiser was blameless, but IMO he can't hardly be compared to Hitler.
Fold With Us! War is too serious a matter to entrust to military men - Georges Clémenceau (1841-1929)
-
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Good question, I'm not going to answer it though. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies Attention: It's finally arrived, The worlds first DSP.
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Colin Davis: Good question, I'm not going to answer it though. Why don't you go for 'YES' :rolleyes: ************************** S r e e j i t h N a i r **************************
-
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Colin Davis: Good question, I'm not going to answer it though. Why don't you go for 'YES' :rolleyes: ************************** S r e e j i t h N a i r **************************
sreejith ss nair wrote: Why don't you go for 'YES' i think it's the correct answer, but it upset my stomach. Regardz Colin J Davies Attention: It's finally arrived, The worlds first DSP.
-
I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Yes. I think it's important to remember that people can be monsters, yet still be "a person". Frankly, it's this stark dichotomy that best defines "human" for me. Animals behave pretty much in only one way, as animals. But humans, ascending out of animalistic behavior, appear to be capable of descending even to lower depths as well. In any case, seeing Hitler as a person makes him more terrifying IMO, because it shows that there might just be a little Hitler in each of us. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
-
Paul Watson wrote: At what age do I become responsible? I'd say you become responsible at the point you understand your action is harmful, because it makes sense to me that way. Granted there are societal conditions that can be overwhleming and cause people to continue their actions beyond that point of recognition. As a child, I imagine you hardly had control over your own life, so can hardly be expected to make decisions let alone act on them regarding apartheid. It's an interesting train of thought, and is making me think about my responsibility in my community a bit harder. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Christian Graus wrote: Clinging to an idea of baddies in black hats who are always nasty is both unrealistic, and does not prepare us to recognise evil in our midst. Exactly right. John Carson "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote ... and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. - John F. Kennedy
I have to agree as well.
"If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell Not getting the response you want from a question asked in an online forum: How to Ask Questions the Smart Way!
-
Yes, for two reasons. 1. Freedom of speech. Even if the view it presents of Hitler is skewed, people should be free to work that out. 2. It's true. He WAS a human being, and no matter how evil his actions, that doesn't mean he never loved anyone, or never showed compassion, etc. It's dangerous to assume that being someone is sick, or evil, that they make that apparent to all who see or know them. I saw a doco which interviewed Stalin's daughter, and they asked what he was like. She said 'he was a father, he played with us, read to us, loved us.'. Clinging to an idea of baddies in black hats who are always nasty is both unrealistic, and does not prepare us to recognise evil in our midst. But there are enough threads about the US elections already, so I won't go any further. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
Christian Graus wrote: He WAS a human being, and no matter how evil his actions, that doesn't mean he never loved anyone, or never showed compassion, etc. It's dangerous to assume that being someone is sick, or evil, that they make that apparent to all who see or know them. ... Clinging to an idea of baddies in black hats who are always nasty is both unrealistic, and does not prepare us to recognise evil in our midst. Oh but its so easy to just call them evil and be done with it. Take a look back and you see Hitlers and Stalins throughout history. Whole people groups were slaughtered or enslaved after being conquered. If Xerxes, Alexander, or Caesar had tanks and gas chambers, just think of the destruction they would have wrought. We must recognize evil for what it is, a part of human nature, so we can do our best to snuff it out when it rears its ugly head. It should be something we expect to see from time to time, and not be caught off guard and unwilling to face it.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
I'll put this in here as there could be strong opinions. Basically there's a new film about the last days of the third reich which shows a personal side to Adolf Hitler. See here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3663044.stm[^] So should Hitler be seen as a person? pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: Should Hitler be a person? Nope, he tried it once and screwed it up - no second chances for maniacs. ;P pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Ohhhh! In that case, yes - as long as he is not romanticized or pitied. :) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
-
Jeff Bogan wrote: what is the difference between Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm? there are many differences! Here are some: * The Kaiser didn't plan an annexionist strategy as Hitler did * There was a kind of democracy during the 2nd Reich, not at all during the 3rd. * There were no concentration camp during WW1. * There was no genocide of Jews and Gypsies[^] (IMHO the forgotten holocaust) during WW1 * There was no Gestapo, no SD, no Einsatzgruppe [^] in the second Reich. * There was no "Operation T4"[^] during the second Reich * The Kaiser was dominated by his generals, Hitler dominated his generals I don't say the Kaiser was blameless, but IMO he can't hardly be compared to Hitler.
Fold With Us! War is too serious a matter to entrust to military men - Georges Clémenceau (1841-1929)
Yeah, Hitler was aggressively expansionistic and power hungry and would ignore treaties and lie through his teeth to expand his influence. In some ways he was pretty stupid too. Why not sit on your hands for a while after taking western europe, rather than turning on the Soviets and opening a second front. And why on earth declare war on America so early? I'm sure Wilhelm was the same in some ways, but Hitler was blatant and shameless about it.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
pseudonym67 wrote: So should Hitler be seen as a person? Yes. I think it's important to remember that people can be monsters, yet still be "a person". Frankly, it's this stark dichotomy that best defines "human" for me. Animals behave pretty much in only one way, as animals. But humans, ascending out of animalistic behavior, appear to be capable of descending even to lower depths as well. In any case, seeing Hitler as a person makes him more terrifying IMO, because it shows that there might just be a little Hitler in each of us. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
Marc Clifton wrote: In any case, seeing Hitler as a person makes him more terrifying IMO, because it shows that there might just be a little Hitler in each of us. <shiver/>
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
Yeah, Hitler was aggressively expansionistic and power hungry and would ignore treaties and lie through his teeth to expand his influence. In some ways he was pretty stupid too. Why not sit on your hands for a while after taking western europe, rather than turning on the Soviets and opening a second front. And why on earth declare war on America so early? I'm sure Wilhelm was the same in some ways, but Hitler was blatant and shameless about it.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: rather than turning on the Soviets and opening a second front. Many reasons, IMHO: * he needed a large continental base, with plenty of resources, to be able to face the sea powers. * He knew that if he didn't strike first, Stalin would, and the more he was waiting, the stronger would be Stalin? * He tought USSR was still a weak adversary, especially after the poor soviet demonstration during the war against Finland * Even his generals, who were very anxious before attacking France, were enthousiastic before invading USSR * Eastern Europe has always been his primary target. Remember "Mein Kampf" and the "Drang Nach Osten", defeating the West was just a way to have the free hands. * He probably believed he would be helped by his Japanese allies. The declaration of war against the US is more surprising, especially because the US didn't seem ready to declare war to the Third Reich. Maybe was he pushed to do so by Dönitz, who could then fight very aggressively in the Atlantic Ocean, and give severe blows to the allied merchand marines. The 6 first months of 1942 were very, very critical on this point for the Allies, and were "Happy Times[^] for the U-boats.
Fold With Us! War is too serious a matter to entrust to military men - Georges Clémenceau (1841-1929)