Here we go again - part 2
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That's a fair question. At first I would probably be mad, disappointed, etc. But in the long run I would adapt and find new work. If I couldn't find work as a programmer I'd do one of the following: :bob: Find temporary work, perhaps in another field or doing something crazy, like devlivering newspapers.. assuming it pays better than unemployment benefits... while continuing to find a better job. :bob: Go back to school... one can spend a lot of time in school, racking up loans, but maintaining a good standard of living. :bob: Learn a new trade. Hopefully I'd be smart enough to see the writing on the wall *before* I lost my job. :bob: Marry somebody rich. :) An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
I already started on the new trade thing. If nothing else, I'll combine the two and start making software for this industry. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Navin wrote: So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? From a global perspective, outsourcing is not a bad thing. I often hear business people or the president say that it helps everyone. They seem to be basing this on the fact that free trade does make increase the total wealth of the entire system (what they fail to mention, of course, is that the "total system" includes people outside your country - which is where the real benefit happens). However, "increasing the total wealth of the entire system" does not mean everyone wins. It's entirely possible that some people suffer a great deal as a result. There are several effects that I see from the outsourcing trend: the total wealth of the entire globe will increase, third-world nations will gain a great deal of wealth and will begin to play a role in technology development, the western world will loose wealth and technology development, the average pay of engineers and scientists will decline. Now, if you live in the West, you are faced with the prospect of a loss of the "good" jobs - both in terms of doing something interesting and intellectual and in terms of pay. Your options dwindle until you are faced with bad opportunities: boring jobs with low pay. If you want a job that you love and is intellectually challenging, you are going to have a harder and harder time. Globally, it has some good effects, but very bad if you're the one with your head on the chopping block. Now, you can argue that we should all be happy that the global community will benefit from this, but you can sum up the situation by asking yourself this question: "If you could help the global economy by losing your job to someone making 1/2 as much money, how much will "helping the global economy" mitigate your loss of your sole source of income?" [Edit] You can also use hypothetical scenarios to explore the same issues - for example, if someone suddenly found the lost continent of Atlantis and it was full of educated but poor natives, and tech jobs suddenly moved out of India in into Atlantis, would the fact that "the global economy benefits" do much to make Indians feel good about the whole situation? Of course not, their jobs and their hope for a technological India would be gone. There would be an overwhelming sense of loss about the whole thing. Yet, there might be some people walking around saying, "It's good for the global economy", which would probably be a bit irritating. [\Edit] ----------------------------
"If you could help the global economy by losing your job to someone making 1/2 as much money, how much will "helping the global economy" mitigate your loss of your sole source of income?" Not much, but what *does* mitigate it is the fact that the US has had this happen in the past. Complete job classes have gone away, been outsourced, are no longer relevant, etc. And we have always adapted. If I lose my job, I have a lot of options (mentioned above.) If somebody in a third-world country loses their job, they have far fewer options. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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And, if MS can claim OSS is communism, then I can say the same thing about a global economy and outsourcing. :) BTW, I don't buy into the fact that outsourcing will save the world. One of the main reasons India is like it is, is because of over population. So, even a small percentage having tech jobs won't solve the issue. Jeremy Falcon
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Overpopulation is a completely different issue... it is mostly due to the fact that people are living longer than they ever have... An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
But it still affects their economy. In the end, that's what it's all about, right? Making sure all countries have a strong economy. Jeremy Falcon
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I already started on the new trade thing. If nothing else, I'll combine the two and start making software for this industry. :) Jeremy Falcon
That's actually a smart thing to do, I can forsee in the future technology being more vertical... there will be a need for, say, medical professionals who can program, etc. I've even thoguht about getting an MBA... businesspeople who are tech-savvy can make a ton of money... An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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That's actually a smart thing to do, I can forsee in the future technology being more vertical... there will be a need for, say, medical professionals who can program, etc. I've even thoguht about getting an MBA... businesspeople who are tech-savvy can make a ton of money... An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
An MBA is another good idea. You'll be flexible enough to enter almost any industry with that. Jeremy Falcon
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Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
From a global perspective it isn't a bad thing, in my mind anyway. The goods and service move naturally (for the most part) to where they are most efficiently produced. Job markets come and go for various reasons and for the most part people have the means to be prepared and adjust when times change. the problem isn't necessarily keeping an industry in one spot, but making the transition to something else as successful as possible. Now for those who are forced to look elsewhere it is a bad thing, but we're not talking about that. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
"If you could help the global economy by losing your job to someone making 1/2 as much money, how much will "helping the global economy" mitigate your loss of your sole source of income?" Not much, but what *does* mitigate it is the fact that the US has had this happen in the past. Complete job classes have gone away, been outsourced, are no longer relevant, etc. And we have always adapted. If I lose my job, I have a lot of options (mentioned above.) If somebody in a third-world country loses their job, they have far fewer options. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: Not much, but what *does* mitigate it is the fact that the US has had this happen in the past. Complete job classes have gone away, been outsourced, are no longer relevant, etc. But, that has always happened at a slower pace (which give workers time to adapt) and there have always been jobs "higher up the ladder" - by which I mean going from farm worker to factory worker to intellectual. The intellectual classes are being filled up by foreigners now, so the US workers have nothing to do except contemplate moving back down the ladder to jobs like "walmart salesperson". ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
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And, if MS can claim OSS is communism, then I can say the same thing about a global economy and outsourcing. :) BTW, I don't buy into the fact that outsourcing will save the world. One of the main reasons India is like it is, is because of over population. So, even a small percentage having tech jobs won't solve the issue. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I don't buy into the fact that outsourcing will save the world definitely not, but to fight that force in a capitalistic market is hardly worth the effort. We should instead learn to adjust better. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Nothing is ever bad until it affects you personally. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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I already started on the new trade thing. If nothing else, I'll combine the two and start making software for this industry. :) Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I already started on the new trade thing. Yep, me too. Got out of the coding business and went full time into writing, speaking, and composing music for film / tv. Of course, I'll still be involved in tech as a writer and speaker, but I'm done with the coding thing. 15 years is enough, and I was getting bored. I tend to change careers every 10 or 12 years, so by my clock the decision was a little behind schedule anyway. :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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Navin wrote: Not much, but what *does* mitigate it is the fact that the US has had this happen in the past. Complete job classes have gone away, been outsourced, are no longer relevant, etc. But, that has always happened at a slower pace (which give workers time to adapt) and there have always been jobs "higher up the ladder" - by which I mean going from farm worker to factory worker to intellectual. The intellectual classes are being filled up by foreigners now, so the US workers have nothing to do except contemplate moving back down the ladder to jobs like "walmart salesperson". ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
Not so sure about that - what about doctors, lawyers, tax advisers, businesspeople, etc.? Lots of good jobs still in demand, of course it takes a lot of work to become a doctor or lawyer. A lot of manual labor but well-paying jobs are in demand too, such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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But it still affects their economy. In the end, that's what it's all about, right? Making sure all countries have a strong economy. Jeremy Falcon
Right, but it affects it in a different way. And it will affect the US just the same even if we never outsource another job. Hence, that's why I think it is a separate issue. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: I don't buy into the fact that outsourcing will save the world definitely not, but to fight that force in a capitalistic market is hardly worth the effort. We should instead learn to adjust better. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesIt may not save the world, but I think it will make it better.. And yes, you're right too, learning to adjust is how Americans have always been able to improve themselves in the past, and will do so in the future. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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From a global perspective it isn't a bad thing, in my mind anyway. The goods and service move naturally (for the most part) to where they are most efficiently produced. Job markets come and go for various reasons and for the most part people have the means to be prepared and adjust when times change. the problem isn't necessarily keeping an industry in one spot, but making the transition to something else as successful as possible. Now for those who are forced to look elsewhere it is a bad thing, but we're not talking about that. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesNow for those who are forced to look elsewhere it is a bad thing, but we're not talking about that. In the short run, yes, but in the long run it can be a great opportunity. Hey, Colonel Sanders didn't make it big until his original restaurant declinded because an interstate was built that bypassed it, and he decided to try it somewhere else... An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Nothing is ever bad until it affects you personally. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: I already started on the new trade thing. Yep, me too. Got out of the coding business and went full time into writing, speaking, and composing music for film / tv. Of course, I'll still be involved in tech as a writer and speaker, but I'm done with the coding thing. 15 years is enough, and I was getting bored. I tend to change careers every 10 or 12 years, so by my clock the decision was a little behind schedule anyway. :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
I know what you mean, when learning a new industry I find myself eager to learn like when I was a teenager. I've long since lost that after finding out about the downside of the tech industry. It's kinda fun to be dumb again. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
well i'll say what has alrady been said in this type of debate ... its all about the value proposition you present to the potential buyer ... outsourcing overseas is happening because companies see a better potential value proposition in using indian (for example) programmers instead of american ones ... whether this is a real cost saving remains to be seen as there are other costs involved like managing remote workers who have a different culture and time zone (to mention just 2) when oo methodology was first coming to the marketplace it was embraced because it said it would save money for the companies that adopted it outsourcing is no different and it will stand or fall when the financial results start showing up meantime if you want to keep in work (and i do) you have to change ur expectations to match what is reality in the marketplace ... value for money is always going to win out :)
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Not so sure about that - what about doctors, lawyers, tax advisers, businesspeople, etc.? Lots of good jobs still in demand, of course it takes a lot of work to become a doctor or lawyer. A lot of manual labor but well-paying jobs are in demand too, such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: Not so sure about that - what about doctors, lawyers, tax advisers, businesspeople, etc.? Lots of good jobs still in demand, of course it takes a lot of work to become a doctor or lawyer. A lot of manual labor but well-paying jobs are in demand too, such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. Research and Development: GE Research center created in Bangalore[^] Pharmacutical Research moves to India[^] Here's a big list of things being outsourced: http://www.outsource2india.com/why_india/articles/what_outsource.asp[^] Doctors jobs are increasingly being outsourced to India (though obviously some of them have to stay here). For example, people are increasingly being flown to India to have major surgury done because it is so much cheaper (even with the cost of air travel). Medical transcription and X-ray interpretation of US patients is also being done more and more in India. Tax preparation is also being done in India. Indians are being trained in American law so that they can do legal work for Americans ( "Forrester Research Inc., a Cambridge, Mass.-based market research firm, predicts that more than 489,000 U.S. lawyer jobs, nearly 8 percent of the field, will shift abroad by 2015." http://www.law.com/jsp/cc/pubarticleCC.jsp?id=1090180413835[^] ) The jobs that stay in the US are the ones that require geographical proximity. Unfortunately, there are a lot of jobs that don't require geographical proximity. If I left the software development field, I would like to go into biotechnology, but that is increasingly being shipped to India as well because there is no geographical proximity requirement for biotechnology. (See the link above about the pharmacutical research being shifted to India.) So the trick is: can I find an interesting,
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And bad is subjective. Some people consider any change as bad. Others adapt to it, still others grow and improve because of it. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
I understand what you're saying, and to a degree agree with you. However, most people consider spontaneous loss of income a Bad Thing, particularly when the bills come due. Having changed careers several times in my life, I'm all for moving on to the Next Cool Thing. But that's substantially different from losing a job and having no ready options to replace the income. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World