US and GWB
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JimRivera wrote: i feel totally invalidated You should feel ashamed. Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
and yet one-liners still don't pahse me if i am so stupid and wrong give me facts, atleast logic. Save the tsk tsk for some less competent, i like tangible stuff. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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There are many sarcastic comments I could make in response to all of that nonsense. You are basically repeating the same tired old refrain that the chaos in the Middle East is our fault because we are greedy, lazy, capitalistic pigs wallowing in wealth and depravity and thats why all the rest of the world is poor and angry. You cannot find it within yourself to place one iota of blame anywhere other than upon the US. Why? I don't know - but I suspect it is because you are a brain-washed neo-Marxist. However, the truth is that I for one would be willing to give your 'plan' a chance. As expensive and dangerous as is always is, I never cease to get a kick out of wathcing left wing attempts at solving the world's problems crash and burn. The question I have for you, is after we have spent all of the money you wish to spend in the Middle East - after we have helped destroy Israel, after we have done everything these people want us to do, and the terrorism does not stop - how much evidence will it take for you to admit that you were wrong? How many people have to die at the hands of terrorist for you to get it through your thick skull that the real reason these guys are mad is because we are winning a cultural war against Islam without firing a shot, and that powerful factions within Isalmic society are not happy about it and want to stop it by any means possible. The very last thing they want is your 'plan' or any other plan coming out of the West because it places them that much more under our cultural influence. "Benedict Arnold was a war hero too."
Stan Shannon wrote: the real reason these guys are mad is because we are winning a cultural war against Islam without firing a shot, and that powerful factions within Isalmic society are not happy about it and want to stop it by any means possible. I think there is probably a lot of truth in this. I would qualify it by saying that the group that is "not happy about it" is more numerous than the group that "want to stop it by any means possible". I would also point out that the winning of the cultural war is almost solely on the basis of economics --- both the temptations of affluence to Muslims and the way that economic strength translates into influence over a range of other areas. Stan Shannon wrote: The very last thing they want is your 'plan' or any other plan coming out of the West because it places them that much more under our cultural influence. Doesn't that make it a good thing from your point of view? There comes a point when success in the cultural war reaches a point where the other side gives up. Maybe the leaders don't, but they run out of followers. John Carson
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There are many sarcastic comments I could make in response to all of that nonsense. You are basically repeating the same tired old refrain that the chaos in the Middle East is our fault because we are greedy, lazy, capitalistic pigs wallowing in wealth and depravity and thats why all the rest of the world is poor and angry. You cannot find it within yourself to place one iota of blame anywhere other than upon the US. Why? I don't know - but I suspect it is because you are a brain-washed neo-Marxist. However, the truth is that I for one would be willing to give your 'plan' a chance. As expensive and dangerous as is always is, I never cease to get a kick out of wathcing left wing attempts at solving the world's problems crash and burn. The question I have for you, is after we have spent all of the money you wish to spend in the Middle East - after we have helped destroy Israel, after we have done everything these people want us to do, and the terrorism does not stop - how much evidence will it take for you to admit that you were wrong? How many people have to die at the hands of terrorist for you to get it through your thick skull that the real reason these guys are mad is because we are winning a cultural war against Islam without firing a shot, and that powerful factions within Isalmic society are not happy about it and want to stop it by any means possible. The very last thing they want is your 'plan' or any other plan coming out of the West because it places them that much more under our cultural influence. "Benedict Arnold was a war hero too."
Stan Shannon wrote: There are many sarcastic comments I could make in response to all of that nonsense. Its a shame you could not make any constructive comments that would better aid this discussion and allow me to undersand your perception of the world. Stan Shannon wrote: You are basically repeating the same tired old refrain that the chaos in the Middle East is our fault because we are greedy, lazy, capitalistic pigs wallowing in wealth and depravity and thats why all the rest of the world is poor and angry. You cannot find it within yourself to place one iota of blame anywhere other than upon the US. Why? I don't know - but I suspect it is because you are a brain-washed neo-Marxist. No basically i am saying that terrorist are people who come from nations that that are poor and suffering, and if it makes you feel better i will take the blame for it (somebody should anty up to something). The cause is not my concern, thats the past, cannot be undone. However if we were to help these countries, invest in them, give them the means to work together, you end alot of suffering. Old saying goes if you give a man fish, he eats for a day, teach him how to fish, he eats for a lifetime. Instead of shooting at these guys (something they are used to) lets try helping them replace the gun with tools, hatred with hope. I don't blame people for the situation, the US did not make this mess, but we have the power to clean it. Simple equation man, suffering leadds to hate, hate leads to terror. Stan Shannon wrote: However, the truth is that I for one would be willing to give your 'plan' a chance. As expensive and dangerous as is always is, I never cease to get a kick out of wathcing left wing attempts at solving the world's problems crash and burn. Could it be worse than whats going on now, do you really feel safer. If you think this has been the most effective way to handle this situation, then you my freind are as dangerous as the terrorist you hate. Stan Shannon wrote: How many people have to die at the hands of terrorist for you to get it through your thick skull that the real reason these guys are mad is because we are winning a cultural war against Islam without firing a shot, and that powerful factions within Isalmic society are not happy about it and want to stop it by any means possible. The very last thing they want is your 'plan' or any other plan coming out of the West b
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Are you suggesting that people hand over everything they work for to others around the globe, essentially buying their friendship?? Good luck with that. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesNo I am saying that if one is in a position to aid another country y not. During Clintons run, he helped Mexico get out of chapter 11. By finding foriegn investors, and investing US aid, he helped them work into becoming a more prosperous nation. They have since paid back everything they have borrowed, we made a few bucks, helped out someone. I know at this moment about 200 billion dollars has been allocated for the war (not spent allocated). I say we would have spent less moeny and had a chance to actually profit had we used negotiations and had created investment projects such as mexico. Simple thing, lend them money, at the worst they can pay with oil. Its not like these countries dont have enough natural resources to make a good living, they just need the boost in the right direction. So instead of bombing them and forcing them to do thing s in our way, we could have convinced them to handle their own accords in oreder to become part of the international trade. I would also amde these deal open so that people know its their leaders, not the US, who are trying to keep them without food. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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brianwelsch wrote: Are you suggesting that people hand over everything they work for... Nope. Read his reply to Stan. We didn't work for it - we sat around and got rich. :rolleyes: "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
You know what would have been nice, if you had qouted me on it, but you really can't because i was not trying to say that. In every post i have it clear that we would expect some kinds of paybacks for or aid, wheter be in oil, or in just plain money once they were able to get situated. And i also said i waould use the 200 billion already allocated for the war. Is this not what bush wants, did i see another presidential debate where he said talk about spreading freedom. Thats what i am saying, and i am using a more deplomatic, efeective, and cheaper idea. But i guess you guys worked hard for your money, so you deseve to have the explosions and death. I mean f**k me for trying to be passive, what the f**k was i thinking. Dose not pay tto be nice anymore, but i do it anyway. ;P Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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[edit]I was reading the previous post and i like the republican support and pride for their leader. And yes i knew (by looking back at US history) war was going to be called for once 9/11 happened. What i do not understand firts of all, history is a representation of past actions recorded for the sake of knowledge and hopefully allow people to learn from their mistakes. Not that i want to go into a long debate about past wars and whether they were mistakes, i think all war is a mistake. Dose no one understand that weapons are getting to big and too powerful to be swinging them around like some toy. First nuclear weapons, now biological and chemical, we are just looking for new and inventive ways to wipe ourselves off the planet. These weapons are supposedly here to protect us, but now we fear terrorist from having them. Nuke can,t protect you from another nuke can it, and you cannot nuke a man, only a country. Which comes to my second point terrorist are not a country, rather a group of people who are bent on having their ideas "integrated" with those around them. To thier own peole they are heros, to others, people to be feared. When the United States attack afghanistan, their leaders pleaded "there are no buildings standing that are worth as much as the missles you will use to destroy them". terrorist used poor third world countries to exploit the fact that thier governments have little control and their peopole will do anything to eat. We attack this country to still have the man that plan the attacks (Osama) still running free in perhaps the very same spot. then we go to Iraq for which we beleive then "to stop hussein and his WMDs". Wars over and now you people look for every escuse under the sun besides WMDs. And those republicans who have the nerve to justify this, i assume none of your kids are there, frankly i pray they are not. Are we any closer to resolve for 9/11, no, are we safer, definately not. This dangerous "preemptive ordinance" is a dangerous game, since there are a few countries that fit the same criteria as Iraq or worse. North Korea has Nukes, Iran is trying to test them, and there are pounds of weapons grade plutonium floating all over Russia unaccounted for. And to top it off Homeland security is a load of bull. Osama could probably cross the mexican border with a ton of plutonium and nobody would be the wiser. When i wathc farenheit with micheal moore, he was full of crap, but there was one thing he said that stuck with me. He said we take the poorest kids, give
I am just a 25 year old kid, it should be aparent in the misguided optimism i have. But let tell you guys something i know life is f**ked up, its dog eat dog world. Just becuase that the way those around us choose to live does not mean i have to choose that way. I would rather die a poor shell of a man, endure and adversity life can throw at me, as long as my integrity stays in tact. So you guys can try to hush me away, but its a shame none of you could give me a valid argument. Name calling, "i should be ashamed of myself", what a load of crap. You should be ashamed at the fact that you think so little of the human race, we have endured many things for thousands of years. Technology has eliminated so many of these obstacles, our God given talent to "find a better way" is apparent in all we do and touch. I have let myself be screwed countless times cause of my ideals, more you guys could ever imagine. But i keep them, and i find a better way. You are all fools who rather be right so i give to you YOU WIN. When you have all reach a better maturity level, maybe then you can see that a solution is much more rewarding. Life was never meant to be easy, is was meant to be endure, and inevitably conquered, thats the human spirit. so if any more post are gonna hit my email, atleast try to be constructive. And i am not throwing pot shots at people, just would like to have a real discussion. like you guys said basically i am stupid and naive, well then enlighted me. [edit] And another thing, last time i checked my voter registraion card t said " ". Don't label, cause democrats are just as bad. I just presented a case agaisnt this administrations foreign policy and explored solutions. Sorry if all your name calling and sarcastic remarks stay along those political lines, guess you'll actually have to be original (and hopefully witty) [edit] Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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I am just a 25 year old kid, it should be aparent in the misguided optimism i have. But let tell you guys something i know life is f**ked up, its dog eat dog world. Just becuase that the way those around us choose to live does not mean i have to choose that way. I would rather die a poor shell of a man, endure and adversity life can throw at me, as long as my integrity stays in tact. So you guys can try to hush me away, but its a shame none of you could give me a valid argument. Name calling, "i should be ashamed of myself", what a load of crap. You should be ashamed at the fact that you think so little of the human race, we have endured many things for thousands of years. Technology has eliminated so many of these obstacles, our God given talent to "find a better way" is apparent in all we do and touch. I have let myself be screwed countless times cause of my ideals, more you guys could ever imagine. But i keep them, and i find a better way. You are all fools who rather be right so i give to you YOU WIN. When you have all reach a better maturity level, maybe then you can see that a solution is much more rewarding. Life was never meant to be easy, is was meant to be endure, and inevitably conquered, thats the human spirit. so if any more post are gonna hit my email, atleast try to be constructive. And i am not throwing pot shots at people, just would like to have a real discussion. like you guys said basically i am stupid and naive, well then enlighted me. [edit] And another thing, last time i checked my voter registraion card t said " ". Don't label, cause democrats are just as bad. I just presented a case agaisnt this administrations foreign policy and explored solutions. Sorry if all your name calling and sarcastic remarks stay along those political lines, guess you'll actually have to be original (and hopefully witty) [edit] Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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You know what would have been nice, if you had qouted me on it, but you really can't because i was not trying to say that. In every post i have it clear that we would expect some kinds of paybacks for or aid, wheter be in oil, or in just plain money once they were able to get situated. And i also said i waould use the 200 billion already allocated for the war. Is this not what bush wants, did i see another presidential debate where he said talk about spreading freedom. Thats what i am saying, and i am using a more deplomatic, efeective, and cheaper idea. But i guess you guys worked hard for your money, so you deseve to have the explosions and death. I mean f**k me for trying to be passive, what the f**k was i thinking. Dose not pay tto be nice anymore, but i do it anyway. ;P Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
JimRivera wrote: You know what would have been nice, if you had qouted me on it, but you really can't because i was not trying to say that. No? In reply to Stan, JimRivera wrote: There are so many out there who suffer while we sit here and become rich. :doh: Regardless of what you were trying to say, this is what you wrote. JimRivera wrote: Thats what i am saying, and i am using a more deplomatic, efeective, and cheaper idea. Appears to be the same failed plan used by the UN for 13 years. JimRivera wrote: But i guess you guys worked hard for your money, so you deseve to have the explosions and death. I certainly don't want my hard earned money used to "bribe" people to like me. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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No I am saying that if one is in a position to aid another country y not. During Clintons run, he helped Mexico get out of chapter 11. By finding foriegn investors, and investing US aid, he helped them work into becoming a more prosperous nation. They have since paid back everything they have borrowed, we made a few bucks, helped out someone. I know at this moment about 200 billion dollars has been allocated for the war (not spent allocated). I say we would have spent less moeny and had a chance to actually profit had we used negotiations and had created investment projects such as mexico. Simple thing, lend them money, at the worst they can pay with oil. Its not like these countries dont have enough natural resources to make a good living, they just need the boost in the right direction. So instead of bombing them and forcing them to do thing s in our way, we could have convinced them to handle their own accords in oreder to become part of the international trade. I would also amde these deal open so that people know its their leaders, not the US, who are trying to keep them without food. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
I assume you mean, specifically Afghanistan. Because Iraq had plenty of cash, and the UN Oil-for-Food program was supposed to help Iraqis, except, as is becoming exceedingly apparent it was corrupt, as many humanitarian aid programs are to some degree. Also, the US and other nations do provide aide to many countries, however it is not enough to just give or loan money and supplies. If a corrupt government is ruling, it a waste of resources. Those in need will receive little of the intended aid. One reason, IMO, some people dislike the US is because we provide aid and in return profit from it, mainly by getting some economic foothold in these nations. People want help, but they want it on their terms, just like people don't mind helping so long as it is on their own terms. Helping make Mexico get stronger only benfits the US down the road. The more successful Mexico is the larger the market is for US goods and services to cross the border. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Many of these sad and narrow minded views are based on the reality of human nature. People are not nice simply because they are treated well or even "equally". Power and money corrupt people because it becomes increasingly easy to get their way, however people are not content to have only as much money and power as they need to survive. So the struggle goes on. We're getting better, I believe, but it's going to take a long, long time. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Many of these sad and narrow minded views are based on the reality of human nature. People are not nice simply because they are treated well or even "equally". Power and money corrupt people because it becomes increasingly easy to get their way, however people are not content to have only as much money and power as they need to survive. So the struggle goes on. We're getting better, I believe, but it's going to take a long, long time. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesWell, this sounds like the universal philosophical debate: is man good by nature and corrupted by power (or money or society in a general way) ? or greedy of power (and money) by nature ? I believe most people are nice when they feel treated nice or "equally". I believe most people only want to live their life peacefully. (But I won't try to convince anyone who desagrees.) Callixte.[^]
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Well, this sounds like the universal philosophical debate: is man good by nature and corrupted by power (or money or society in a general way) ? or greedy of power (and money) by nature ? I believe most people are nice when they feel treated nice or "equally". I believe most people only want to live their life peacefully. (But I won't try to convince anyone who desagrees.) Callixte.[^]
Callixte wrote: I believe most people only want to live their life peacefully. I think you're right. However, those who want for more effect others in their quest and cause some formerly peaceful folks to decide to stake a claim on what they believe should be "rightfully" theirs. Staking a claim causes others in-turn to say "hey, wait, I was using that" or "well, if they've got one, I should too", and so they try to hold onto what they believe is theirs, and the whole conflict grows. We're jealous and petty creatures when you get down to it. Not always consistently so, but enough to cause trouble. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
I assume you mean, specifically Afghanistan. Because Iraq had plenty of cash, and the UN Oil-for-Food program was supposed to help Iraqis, except, as is becoming exceedingly apparent it was corrupt, as many humanitarian aid programs are to some degree. Also, the US and other nations do provide aide to many countries, however it is not enough to just give or loan money and supplies. If a corrupt government is ruling, it a waste of resources. Those in need will receive little of the intended aid. One reason, IMO, some people dislike the US is because we provide aid and in return profit from it, mainly by getting some economic foothold in these nations. People want help, but they want it on their terms, just like people don't mind helping so long as it is on their own terms. Helping make Mexico get stronger only benfits the US down the road. The more successful Mexico is the larger the market is for US goods and services to cross the border. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesYou know that from that bfood for oil program i have only haerd a few things that he has done with the money, and feedgin 20 million in a desert is not cheap at all, and its difficult to keep food developement "in-house" making it an expensive export. Though saddam didnt care about feeding or helping his people, i doubt he had enough to manfully do it anyway. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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JimRivera wrote: You know what would have been nice, if you had qouted me on it, but you really can't because i was not trying to say that. No? In reply to Stan, JimRivera wrote: There are so many out there who suffer while we sit here and become rich. :doh: Regardless of what you were trying to say, this is what you wrote. JimRivera wrote: Thats what i am saying, and i am using a more deplomatic, efeective, and cheaper idea. Appears to be the same failed plan used by the UN for 13 years. JimRivera wrote: But i guess you guys worked hard for your money, so you deseve to have the explosions and death. I certainly don't want my hard earned money used to "bribe" people to like me. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
First this sentence : There are so many out there who suffer while we sit here and become rich. Read it, i never say we make money off their suffering, merely staing a fact hat we are doing better. Lets say i am in the train going to work and a homeless man passes by me, he suffers while i sit in the train going to make money. I did exploit the homeless guy, we have nothing to do with each others fate. But does this mean i can't try to help with the little i have (trust me its little). The UN never had the power to do squat and you know that, more and more the UN becomes more like a figurehead than a power. I did not say bribe, even the first post i said i expected "paybakc" for our help. I am saying that instaed of flying a 10million dollar plain to shout hundred thousand dollar missles, create an investment plan that alllows them to rebuild, while keeping a money interest. See the problem with this plan for you guys is that you think 2 wrongs make a right. There are times when violence is needed, but in world matters diplomacy must be strong. Seeing that this is the third time i had to explain this to you, i feel that this will be my last post about it. You know what i mean and you just cannot find a proper response, happens to alot of people who argue with me. See right now there are atleast tw more countries ( Iran, North Korea) that fits the preemptive strik criteria. Does this mean they are next, at 200 billion a pop does that mean the US people can look forward to another 400 billion dollar loss. Or do we just leave them alone because they are missing the most inportant criteria, oil. So then that means we did this all for crude. Did you know that our supply of easy to use crude oil is about to hit the bad side of the suppl/demand chart. We are starting to want more than we can produce, and we must find other ways to get the oil (for instance oil sand in venezuela). Iraq not only had alot of oil, but with sanctions and a very small port, little means to move it (they can but not like kuwait and saudi arabia) Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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I've heard it said that Mr. Bush can't afford to acknowledge the fact that terrorists are "made, not born", as you so eloquently put it, because that would refute the Bush-advanced notion that Middle-east terrorists "hate us because we are free". This would also involve admitting that some aspects of American foreign policy, especially those regarding Israel, are flawed, which would alienate his "base" (the crazy Christian Right), and then he wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being re-elected. At times I wonder if he and/or his handlers are pushing to fulfill the prophecy of the Apocalypse. Serioulsy.
he might destory his base voters, but he would get everybody who beleives he is lying. If Bush would admit to his failures, i would think about voting for him, for right now i will vote for "the rock" like i do every year ;P:rolleyes: Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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First this sentence : There are so many out there who suffer while we sit here and become rich. Read it, i never say we make money off their suffering, merely staing a fact hat we are doing better. Lets say i am in the train going to work and a homeless man passes by me, he suffers while i sit in the train going to make money. I did exploit the homeless guy, we have nothing to do with each others fate. But does this mean i can't try to help with the little i have (trust me its little). The UN never had the power to do squat and you know that, more and more the UN becomes more like a figurehead than a power. I did not say bribe, even the first post i said i expected "paybakc" for our help. I am saying that instaed of flying a 10million dollar plain to shout hundred thousand dollar missles, create an investment plan that alllows them to rebuild, while keeping a money interest. See the problem with this plan for you guys is that you think 2 wrongs make a right. There are times when violence is needed, but in world matters diplomacy must be strong. Seeing that this is the third time i had to explain this to you, i feel that this will be my last post about it. You know what i mean and you just cannot find a proper response, happens to alot of people who argue with me. See right now there are atleast tw more countries ( Iran, North Korea) that fits the preemptive strik criteria. Does this mean they are next, at 200 billion a pop does that mean the US people can look forward to another 400 billion dollar loss. Or do we just leave them alone because they are missing the most inportant criteria, oil. So then that means we did this all for crude. Did you know that our supply of easy to use crude oil is about to hit the bad side of the suppl/demand chart. We are starting to want more than we can produce, and we must find other ways to get the oil (for instance oil sand in venezuela). Iraq not only had alot of oil, but with sanctions and a very small port, little means to move it (they can but not like kuwait and saudi arabia) Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
JimRivera wrote: i never say we make money off their suffering Nor did I imply that you did. I took issue with you saying that we sit there and get rich - As if we don't work for our money. I work very hard for my "riches" and my ancestors sacrificed greatly to give me the opportunities I have. JimRivera wrote: Lets say i am in the train going to work and a homeless man passes by me, he suffers while i sit in the train going to make money. I did exploit the homeless guy, we have nothing to do with each others fate. But does this mean i can't try to help with the little i have (trust me its little). It's a lot more complicated than that. Saddam came to power undemocratically and remained in power undemocratically. He first invaded Iran then Kuwait. He even shot chemical weapons at Israel via SCUD missle. He gassed Kurds and occassionaly wiped out entire Iraqi villages bulldozing bodies into mass graves. He operated rape and torture centers for anyone who hinted at opposition. That's the reality of it. Seeing the Iraqis under Saddam's control as poor homeless folk isn't even close. JimRivera wrote: The UN never had the power to do squat and you know that, more and more the UN becomes more like a figurehead than a power. Agreed, but diplomatically the US has even less power than the UN. What makes you think your plan (which is almost identical to what the UN did for 13 years) would succeed? JimRivera wrote: You know what i mean and you just cannot find a proper response, happens to alot of people who argue with me. Maybe you're not being clear... or maybe you're just plain wrong. ;P JimRivera wrote: Or do we just leave them alone because they are missing the most inportant criteria, oil. So then that means we did this all for crude. :zzz: If oil was the ultimate goal, the most efficient thing to do would have been to lift the UN sanctions and let Saddam free. With crude at $55 a barrel this "war for oil" argument is becoming more and more ridiculous. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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You know that from that bfood for oil program i have only haerd a few things that he has done with the money, and feedgin 20 million in a desert is not cheap at all, and its difficult to keep food developement "in-house" making it an expensive export. Though saddam didnt care about feeding or helping his people, i doubt he had enough to manfully do it anyway. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
JimRivera wrote: Though saddam didnt care about feeding or helping his people, i doubt he had enough to manfully do it anyway. so the appropriate action of a proper government would be to show that current methods were not enough to feed the masses, and that despite the best Iraqi efforts their people were suffering. Could the rest of the world please lend a hand? BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
JimRivera wrote: i never say we make money off their suffering Nor did I imply that you did. I took issue with you saying that we sit there and get rich - As if we don't work for our money. I work very hard for my "riches" and my ancestors sacrificed greatly to give me the opportunities I have. JimRivera wrote: Lets say i am in the train going to work and a homeless man passes by me, he suffers while i sit in the train going to make money. I did exploit the homeless guy, we have nothing to do with each others fate. But does this mean i can't try to help with the little i have (trust me its little). It's a lot more complicated than that. Saddam came to power undemocratically and remained in power undemocratically. He first invaded Iran then Kuwait. He even shot chemical weapons at Israel via SCUD missle. He gassed Kurds and occassionaly wiped out entire Iraqi villages bulldozing bodies into mass graves. He operated rape and torture centers for anyone who hinted at opposition. That's the reality of it. Seeing the Iraqis under Saddam's control as poor homeless folk isn't even close. JimRivera wrote: The UN never had the power to do squat and you know that, more and more the UN becomes more like a figurehead than a power. Agreed, but diplomatically the US has even less power than the UN. What makes you think your plan (which is almost identical to what the UN did for 13 years) would succeed? JimRivera wrote: You know what i mean and you just cannot find a proper response, happens to alot of people who argue with me. Maybe you're not being clear... or maybe you're just plain wrong. ;P JimRivera wrote: Or do we just leave them alone because they are missing the most inportant criteria, oil. So then that means we did this all for crude. :zzz: If oil was the ultimate goal, the most efficient thing to do would have been to lift the UN sanctions and let Saddam free. With crude at $55 a barrel this "war for oil" argument is becoming more and more ridiculous. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: I took issue with you saying that we sit there and get rich - As if we don't work for our money. I work very hard for my "riches" and my ancestors sacrificed greatly to give me the opportunities I have. It never entered my mind about the work we had to do to make the money ( For that i really do apologize, not disrespect but just a foolish guy), just that we made the money surrounded by their suffering. If one wants to enter another country to make profit, the least they can do is help the country. The fact that we can take their resources, while leaving them in any condition they are in does not seem just, but ,capitalist. (legally accepted, ethically sinister) Mike Mullikin wrote: It's a lot more complicated than that. Saddam came to power undemocratically and remained in power undemocratically. He first invaded Iran then Kuwait. He even shot chemical weapons at Israel via SCUD missle. He gassed Kurds and occassionaly wiped out entire Iraqi villages bulldozing bodies into mass graves. He operated rape and torture centers for anyone who hinted at opposition. That's the reality of it. Seeing the Iraqis under Saddam's control as poor homeless folk isn't even close. And when Saddam came to power, what did we do, nothing. When he invaded Iran, we baasically supported this (in the very laest we didnt do much). Those mass graves were created during the the same time. When he invaded the oil producing nation of kuwait, we intervened with the help of fellow nations to free kuwait. And when we went in now we did not talk about rape camps or gassing kurds. We said WMD, we said terrorist, we said prevention of future attacks. See had we said gassing kurds and rape camps, then i would agree with him, thats a cause to fight for. Mike Mullikin wrote: If oil was the ultimate goal, the most efficient thing to do would have been to lift the UN sanctions and let Saddam free. With crude at $55 a barrel this "war for oil" argument is becoming more and more ridiculous. Yeh that would be better than now, him out of power, those fields in our possesion. Logically this does not make sense does it. And yeh crude will not lower in price because if you had bother to read the whole post, crude oil production is hitting the downward slope of the suppl demand chain. In simple terms, we can no longer supply our demand for oil as easily as we once could. We are not running out, but its not as easy to
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JimRivera wrote: Though saddam didnt care about feeding or helping his people, i doubt he had enough to manfully do it anyway. so the appropriate action of a proper government would be to show that current methods were not enough to feed the masses, and that despite the best Iraqi efforts their people were suffering. Could the rest of the world please lend a hand? BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesYou are absolutely right, but he did not. The next best thing would have been for us to try to open communications to help with aid. If we can do it for weapons inspections, why not. See the biggest problem here is that there are two "API's" of thinking. We all have different forms of comunication, something i say may be ok to you but not to someone else. Had comunication been built, and we eat a little crow, a means to an end. We cannot have everything our way, just like we feel Osama is a terrorist, they feeln we are. A clean slate, a unified chance to improve, sounds better than a war we seem to be losing, though we have already won. No one wins in war, we can all win with diplomacy Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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Christian Graus wrote: Why do you think they are 'training terrorists'? Probably not to kidnap international charity chiefs or kill fellow muslims who work for their nation's national guard... yet.[^] Making excuses for anyone's poor behavior just continues the cycle. No? "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Making excuses for anyone's poor behavior just continues the cycle. No? Correct. I'm wondering why the poor behaviour that causes the terrorist cycle to continue is being excused. That doesn't mean I'm excusing terrorism. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer