New Sanctions Imposed
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All right I have to bring it up....... In light of the 21 Billion dollars [^]that Saddam got out of the last UN sanctions aimed at Iraq, how effective does anyone think this is going to be? http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/11/15/ivory.arms/index.html[^]. Of course not as many people stand to make as much money with the Ivory Coast cocoa eh?:~ Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Seeing as they already have guns to me it just appears to be a case of oh look there goes the horse better shut up the stable. Which is about as effective as what they are doing in darfur at the moment. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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If something is broken is it the proper attitude to just quit? Various people here have mentioned moving to Canada in response to another 4 years of a Bush Administration. Many have criticized this (rightly so, IMHO). Yet if you criticize this behaviour, leaving the US because you don't like the current Pres, how do you defend leaving the UN because you don't like the current Sec Gen? Ultimately don't you want to *fix* the problem? What does leaving achieve, other than to just "take your toys home"? If there are problems in the UN, why not address them, and work towards fixing them? And before you go on to claim that it's corrupt, well of course it is. Just about any large *human* group, at some point, adds layers of bureacracy and levels of corruption. You could easily say the exact same thing about many agencies in the US Govt. So instead of whining about how corrupt it is, isn't it our obligation to work towards making it a better organization? ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
With my very limited knowledge about the UN, it seems to me it is striving to be too much. If we plan to use it as a sort of Global governing body, then departments, elections and a constitution ratified by all member nations needs to be in place. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The Stoves -
Africa is always going to be violent and downtrodden. There is no solution here. The natives that have some education are going to leave for Western shores - so you are left with uneducated people with a medieval mentality armed with modern day weapons. I agree sanctions only hurt the average person in the country and generally the dictator survives. But the alternative is using force. Look at the genocide in Rwanda. That was real actual genocide. If the UN did nothing in that situation, it says that they are never going to risk Western lives for African conflicts. When Westerner are involved there is going to be overwhelming force to punish them and then they will pull out. The only solution left is to form an African peace corp with the power to invade countries to restore order. There would have to be checks and balances to make sure it was not corrupted. This would allow a local, less foreign solution to native African problems and would not risk Western lives.
Better to rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven Milton
There is an African Peace Core / Subsiduary of the UN or whatever they are calling it in Darfur at the moment the only problem is that they have not been given the authority to do anything so they can only sit by and watch while Janaweed ( literal translation mounted theives ) continue what a lot of people consider to be Genocide before going back to their day jobs. At the moment the politicians wont even agree that it's Genocide and even if they could be gotten to agree at the moment they would probably follow the American line of it's Genocide but we aren't going to do anything about it. I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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errm http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/data/vetotab.htm[^] Since 1966 America has used it more times than anyone else. Russia used it a lot in the early years but it looks like they got bored. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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pseudonym67 wrote: Since 1966 America has used it more times than anyone else. I wonder how many of those were in regard to anti-Israeli resolutions?
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/veto/vetosubj.htm[^] A resolution is not anti any country it is usually a response to a breach of international or humanitarian law. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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errm http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/data/vetotab.htm[^] Since 1966 America has used it more times than anyone else. Russia used it a lot in the early years but it looks like they got bored. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
So your assertion is that the UN isn't a corrupt institution that bows to pressures based on individual country's self interests? Maybe you are asserting that the UN Oil for Food Program wasn't a huge ripoff tainted by the corruption of UN bureaucrats and members of the Security Council? Or maybe that the US hasn't had reason to feel that the proceedings of the Security Council were invalid and shouldn't have vetoed actions inside the Council? Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/veto/vetosubj.htm[^] A resolution is not anti any country it is usually a response to a breach of international or humanitarian law. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: A resolution is not anti any country it is usually a response to a breach of international or humanitarian law. I'm not a big fan of Sharon and Co. but I have to wonder how many times the Security Council condemned the actions of the PLO, Hamas, and Hezzbollah in regards to how they dealt with Israel. I have a lot of trouble believing that there isn't something of a slant against Israel based on the influence of the many Arab states and their wealth. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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So your assertion is that the UN isn't a corrupt institution that bows to pressures based on individual country's self interests? Maybe you are asserting that the UN Oil for Food Program wasn't a huge ripoff tainted by the corruption of UN bureaucrats and members of the Security Council? Or maybe that the US hasn't had reason to feel that the proceedings of the Security Council were invalid and shouldn't have vetoed actions inside the Council? Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Huh? What? Where did I say any of that? What Fu**in fantasy land are you in now? I asserted? Oh Maybe I asserted? OOh another maybe. Cripes If I keep this up I wont know what the f**k I'm talking about. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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There is an African Peace Core / Subsiduary of the UN or whatever they are calling it in Darfur at the moment the only problem is that they have not been given the authority to do anything so they can only sit by and watch while Janaweed ( literal translation mounted theives ) continue what a lot of people consider to be Genocide before going back to their day jobs. At the moment the politicians wont even agree that it's Genocide and even if they could be gotten to agree at the moment they would probably follow the American line of it's Genocide but we aren't going to do anything about it. I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. Yeah and the same goes for Rhwanda and how many other places. Unfortunately for people living in Africa, the majority of the countries there don't have the wealth to buy the influence that Saddam did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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There is an African Peace Core / Subsiduary of the UN or whatever they are calling it in Darfur at the moment the only problem is that they have not been given the authority to do anything so they can only sit by and watch while Janaweed ( literal translation mounted theives ) continue what a lot of people consider to be Genocide before going back to their day jobs. At the moment the politicians wont even agree that it's Genocide and even if they could be gotten to agree at the moment they would probably follow the American line of it's Genocide but we aren't going to do anything about it. I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. Yeah and the same goes for Rhwanda and how many other places. Unfortunately for people living in Africa, the majority of the countries there don't have the wealth to buy the influence that Saddam did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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There is an African Peace Core / Subsiduary of the UN or whatever they are calling it in Darfur at the moment the only problem is that they have not been given the authority to do anything so they can only sit by and watch while Janaweed ( literal translation mounted theives ) continue what a lot of people consider to be Genocide before going back to their day jobs. At the moment the politicians wont even agree that it's Genocide and even if they could be gotten to agree at the moment they would probably follow the American line of it's Genocide but we aren't going to do anything about it. I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. Yeah and the same goes for Rhwanda and how many other places. Unfortunately for people living in Africa, the majority of the countries there don't have the wealth to buy the influence that Saddam did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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There is an African Peace Core / Subsiduary of the UN or whatever they are calling it in Darfur at the moment the only problem is that they have not been given the authority to do anything so they can only sit by and watch while Janaweed ( literal translation mounted theives ) continue what a lot of people consider to be Genocide before going back to their day jobs. At the moment the politicians wont even agree that it's Genocide and even if they could be gotten to agree at the moment they would probably follow the American line of it's Genocide but we aren't going to do anything about it. I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. Yeah and the same goes for Rhwanda and how many other places. Unfortunately for people living in Africa, the majority of the countries there don't have the wealth to buy the influence that Saddam did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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There is an African Peace Core / Subsiduary of the UN or whatever they are calling it in Darfur at the moment the only problem is that they have not been given the authority to do anything so they can only sit by and watch while Janaweed ( literal translation mounted theives ) continue what a lot of people consider to be Genocide before going back to their day jobs. At the moment the politicians wont even agree that it's Genocide and even if they could be gotten to agree at the moment they would probably follow the American line of it's Genocide but we aren't going to do anything about it. I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. Yeah and the same goes for Rhwanda and how many other places. Unfortunately for people living in Africa, the majority of the countries there don't have the wealth to buy the influence that Saddam did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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pseudonym67 wrote: I strongly suspect that until the western governments get their acts together and agree to support and give authority to a African Peace Corps then the news is going to continue to be full of bloodshed and turmoil from both Darfur and the Ivory Coast for sometime to come. Yeah and the same goes for Rhwanda and how many other places. Unfortunately for people living in Africa, the majority of the countries there don't have the wealth to buy the influence that Saddam did. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Yeah but look on the bright side they wont be getting invaded by Haliburton America in the near future either. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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With my very limited knowledge about the UN, it seems to me it is striving to be too much. If we plan to use it as a sort of Global governing body, then departments, elections and a constitution ratified by all member nations needs to be in place. BW The Biggest Loser
"Farm Donkey makes us laugh.
Farm Donkey hauls some ass."
-The StovesExcept that the majority of UN members don't ever hold their own elections and a lot of them ignore the rule of law in their own country. So why would you expect them to play any different in the UN than the do at home? "The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." Albert Einstein Dave
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Seeing as they already have guns to me it just appears to be a case of oh look there goes the horse better shut up the stable. Which is about as effective as what they are doing in darfur at the moment. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
The arms dealers aren't making enough profit. The sanctions will drive up the price of weapons and ammunition, leading to higher profits for the dealers and kickback opportunities for the UN administrators. Unfortunately, it will do little to reduce the violence there... Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
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Huh? What? Where did I say any of that? What Fu**in fantasy land are you in now? I asserted? Oh Maybe I asserted? OOh another maybe. Cripes If I keep this up I wont know what the f**k I'm talking about. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
pseudonym67 wrote: What Fu**in fantasy land are you in now? Another intelligent conversation..... I'm just trying to figure out what your point was in saying that the US had the highest number of Security Council vetos. What was your point? Its to bad that you have to resort to being obnoxious instead of having a meaningful conversation. pseudonym67 wrote: Cripes If I keep this up I wont know what the f**k I'm talking about. Not a suprise :~ Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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All right I have to bring it up....... In light of the 21 Billion dollars [^]that Saddam got out of the last UN sanctions aimed at Iraq, how effective does anyone think this is going to be? http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/11/15/ivory.arms/index.html[^]. Of course not as many people stand to make as much money with the Ivory Coast cocoa eh?:~ Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
From the first article: But the committee's ranking Democrat, Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, said ``for the most part the U.N. sanctions achieved their intended objective of preventing Saddam from rearming and developing weapons of mass destruction.'' Do you really think that anybody thought that Saddam would not get any oil out? Of course, in situations like this there is money to be made, and some will inevitably use the oportunity. Like prohibition in America. God, I'm sick of the perfect high morale of some Americans X| A sure cure for seasickness is to sit under a tree. Spike Milligan
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From the first article: But the committee's ranking Democrat, Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, said ``for the most part the U.N. sanctions achieved their intended objective of preventing Saddam from rearming and developing weapons of mass destruction.'' Do you really think that anybody thought that Saddam would not get any oil out? Of course, in situations like this there is money to be made, and some will inevitably use the oportunity. Like prohibition in America. God, I'm sick of the perfect high morale of some Americans X| A sure cure for seasickness is to sit under a tree. Spike Milligan
Maybe you should read the Duefler report. It documented what Saddam's plans seemed to be. Just a bit of it: "• Saddam’s primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections—to gain support for lifting sanctions—with his intention to preserve Iraq’s intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring. • The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Baghdad’s economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see that OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enhance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development. • By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo, by the end of 1999. Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq’s WMD capability—which was essentially destroyed in 1991—after sanctions were removed and Iraq’s economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop a nuclear capability—in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks—but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities." If you read the above it does say that Saddam still aspired to recreate his WMD capabilities, and intended to do so after sanctions where lifted. It also mentions that he had subverted the Oil for Food program to get money to develop weapons again. It also mentions that the program had nearly ended by 1999. Probably having a lot to do with the fact he was bribing diplomats, huh? By the way my morale is pretty decent, but I would say that my morals are probably no better or worse than yours. ;) Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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pseudonym67 wrote: What Fu**in fantasy land are you in now? Another intelligent conversation..... I'm just trying to figure out what your point was in saying that the US had the highest number of Security Council vetos. What was your point? Its to bad that you have to resort to being obnoxious instead of having a meaningful conversation. pseudonym67 wrote: Cripes If I keep this up I wont know what the f**k I'm talking about. Not a suprise :~ Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
No you were not trying to have an intelligent conversation at all. You were employing the usual tactic of interpretting my statement in the way that best suited your agenda because you had no clear answer to it and because you didn't have a clear answer you tried to put words in my mouth. You argued that one of the main problems with the veto arrangement was the selfish interests of individual countries with the obvious intention of misleading people into thinking it was a mostly European thing. I was simply pointing out that the veto has been used more by the USA since 1966 than by all the European countries combined. I am perfectly capbable of reading thank you and I have read your little chat with Mike Gaskey at the start of this thread were you make it obvious that the sole point of the thread is to have a dig at the Europeans. If you want a conversation with someone dumb enough to fall for that stuff looks like you and Mike will just have to open exclusive threads and talk amongst yourselves. If I wish to state my opinion of the European Union in any reply I state it in my own words thank you. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush