COTD
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pseudonym67 wrote: No one but you has suggested that... Bullshit! pseudonym67 wrote: Pick any city in America and tell me what the reaction would be if you told the people of that city that they should leave their homes for any reason. Christ you lot pride yourselves on the fact that if your own government tried to do that you'd stand and fight them. So tell me why the Iraqi's are going to react any differently. You made the comparison yourself! "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: You made the comparison yourself! Oh right sorry I forgot in simple world everything is easy isn't it? Lets see if I can get this. "If one terrorist is in Iraq then all Iraqi's are terrorists." Right I think I'm getting it so the logic goes "If one Iraqi defends their home then all Iraqi's are terrorists" Yeah I'm there now so "If one Iraqi loves their wife and kids then all Iraqi's love terrorists" Whoo Hooo I'm rolling now so "If one Iraqi wears sandals then all Iraqi's terrorize sandals" now wait that's not right, damn. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Seems like you're saying that they are peace-loving Iraqi patriots nope. "peace-loving" is your phrase, not mine. but i don't see how you can reasonably come to any other conclusion that they do want to run the country free of foreign influence - once they've driven us off by whatever means they can muster. and they probably do think of themselves as patriots. Mike Mullikin wrote: How does that square with the fact that they are kidnapping, murdering and bombing civilians? ...civilians who cooperate (in their eyes) with the US or the US-supported government. they aren't just blowing up apartment buildings; they're going after people who they probably see as 'collaberators'. of course it's reprehensible. no question. but, there's a method to their atrocities - it's not simple random murder. but none of this means i approve of anything the insurgents are doing. Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: i don't see how you can reasonably come to any other conclusion that they do want to run the country free of foreign influence - once they've driven us off by whatever means they can muster. I haven't seen any attempt at government from them. All they have done is kidnap, murder and bomb. Show me one single positive action they have undertaken. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Have a safe trip. Don't forget to write. ;P
Paul Lyons, CCPL
Certified Code Project LurkerPaul Lyons wrote: Have a safe trip. Don't forget to write. :-D Maybe I'll live in Australia for a couple of years ride out my "youth" and then retire in Canada? hhmhmmmmm I'll let you know when I decide.:) Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: supplant http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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Chris Losinger wrote: i don't see how you can reasonably come to any other conclusion that they do want to run the country free of foreign influence - once they've driven us off by whatever means they can muster. I haven't seen any attempt at government from them. All they have done is kidnap, murder and bomb. Show me one single positive action they have undertaken. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Show me one single positive action they have undertaken. positive from who's perspective? i don't think they really care about the average Iraqi, only that they get to control them. i could be wrong - maybe the thousands of insurgents are all simply insane serial killers with rifles and RPGs. odds are against it, but i guess it's possible. Software | Cleek
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Mike Mullikin wrote: You made the comparison yourself! Oh right sorry I forgot in simple world everything is easy isn't it? Lets see if I can get this. "If one terrorist is in Iraq then all Iraqi's are terrorists." Right I think I'm getting it so the logic goes "If one Iraqi defends their home then all Iraqi's are terrorists" Yeah I'm there now so "If one Iraqi loves their wife and kids then all Iraqi's love terrorists" Whoo Hooo I'm rolling now so "If one Iraqi wears sandals then all Iraqi's terrorize sandals" now wait that's not right, damn. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
Now you're just being silly. :rolleyes: This post started with the silly cartoon that shows a US soldier shooting a dove and speaking the same words as the US soldier who shot the injured "insurgent". Since a dove represents peace, the cartoonist (and apparently you) see the "insurgents" as "peace loving" people. After bickering with Rob, you made the comparison of the "insurgents" and Americans being told to leave their homes. Now do you understand why I wrote what I wrote? "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Show me one single positive action they have undertaken. positive from who's perspective? i don't think they really care about the average Iraqi, only that they get to control them. i could be wrong - maybe the thousands of insurgents are all simply insane serial killers with rifles and RPGs. odds are against it, but i guess it's possible. Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: maybe the thousands of insurgents are all simply insane serial killers with rifles and RPGs. odds are against it, but i guess it's possible. Or maybe Stan is correct and these particular whack jobs hate western democracy (particularly the US) so much that they take every opportunity to kill and disrupt it. Iraq is a tool not the ultimate goal. If these "insurgents" made any attempt at participation, diplomacy or compromise your opinion might be valid, but so far they're just fucking terrorists. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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lets see, the wounded fellow who was shot was among a number of individuals who had been firing on the Marines from that Mosque. Are you asserting that he was an 'innocent worshipper'. Or that he was not a terrorist but rather an 'insurgent'? I don't know how a group of people that have been busy kidnapping and executing civilians, killing other Iraqis with Car Bombs and the like get the label 'insurgent' when their activities are terroristic, but in any case, he was certianly not any kind of peace envoy. What I see is a tremendous double standard: where are the cartoons re: beheadings, execution of women civilians (a CARE worker for christs sake!), summary execution of their own police officers... These folks are not insurgents, thats altogteher too polite a term for them. They are, plain and simple, terrorists who don't want to see any kind of peace in that region. :mad: Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
Rob Graham wrote: where are the cartoons re: beheadings, execution of women civilians (a CARE worker for christs sake!), summary execution of their own police officers... Check out Iraqi Idol[^] or how about esp. their Execusions section[^]:cool: or how about US's Secret Weapon[^]:cool: Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: supplant http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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Paul Lyons wrote: Have a safe trip. Don't forget to write. :-D Maybe I'll live in Australia for a couple of years ride out my "youth" and then retire in Canada? hhmhmmmmm I'll let you know when I decide.:) Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: supplant http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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Mike Mullikin wrote: You might be interested in this[^]. Very interesting[^] indeed.:cool: Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: supplant http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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Chris Losinger wrote: maybe the thousands of insurgents are all simply insane serial killers with rifles and RPGs. odds are against it, but i guess it's possible. Or maybe Stan is correct and these particular whack jobs hate western democracy (particularly the US) so much that they take every opportunity to kill and disrupt it. Iraq is a tool not the ultimate goal. If these "insurgents" made any attempt at participation, diplomacy or compromise your opinion might be valid, but so far they're just fucking terrorists. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: If these "insurgents" made any attempt at participation, diplomacy or compromise your opinion might be valid, but so far they're just f***ing terrorists now hold on. i never said they wanted to compromise or participate because that's not what i think they're after (i'm sensing a pattern here). i don't think they want anything but the whole country to themselves - no parliamentary power sharing or anything like that. they want the whole thing to themselves, regardless of what our plans are for democratization. of course they know they aren't going to get total power via democracy, because they probably aren't that popular, so they're trying to short-circuit the whole election thing and grab it all for themselves while things are unstable: kick the US out before things settle down, then use their weapons and fame as the "guys who drove out the infidels" as their ticket to success. "they hate democracy". gack. i think that kind of simple-minded sloganeering is a way for people to work themselves into a froth and visualize an enemy that's a pure evil force, out to destroy the whole of western civilization. it's arrogant, simple-minded and ridiculous. these fighters in Iraq don't care about democracy any more than the fighters in Afghanistan in the 80s cared about communism (and my my, we could probably spends weeks lining up those parallels) - they just want us out so that they can take over. but, i can see i'm repeating myself now. so maybe i should stop... Software | Cleek
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Mike Mullikin wrote: If these "insurgents" made any attempt at participation, diplomacy or compromise your opinion might be valid, but so far they're just f***ing terrorists now hold on. i never said they wanted to compromise or participate because that's not what i think they're after (i'm sensing a pattern here). i don't think they want anything but the whole country to themselves - no parliamentary power sharing or anything like that. they want the whole thing to themselves, regardless of what our plans are for democratization. of course they know they aren't going to get total power via democracy, because they probably aren't that popular, so they're trying to short-circuit the whole election thing and grab it all for themselves while things are unstable: kick the US out before things settle down, then use their weapons and fame as the "guys who drove out the infidels" as their ticket to success. "they hate democracy". gack. i think that kind of simple-minded sloganeering is a way for people to work themselves into a froth and visualize an enemy that's a pure evil force, out to destroy the whole of western civilization. it's arrogant, simple-minded and ridiculous. these fighters in Iraq don't care about democracy any more than the fighters in Afghanistan in the 80s cared about communism (and my my, we could probably spends weeks lining up those parallels) - they just want us out so that they can take over. but, i can see i'm repeating myself now. so maybe i should stop... Software | Cleek
So where do you suppose these folks were before Gulf War - Part Deux? A. Saddam loyalists who are now fighting to regain their power. B. An Iraqi fringe group who were afraid of Saddam but think they can kick our ass. C. Non-Iraqi arabs who want to take over a country in the middle east. D. A grass roots organization sprung up since Saddam fell. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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So where do you suppose these folks were before Gulf War - Part Deux? A. Saddam loyalists who are now fighting to regain their power. B. An Iraqi fringe group who were afraid of Saddam but think they can kick our ass. C. Non-Iraqi arabs who want to take over a country in the middle east. D. A grass roots organization sprung up since Saddam fell. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Saddam loyalists who are now fighting to regain their power working for Saddam. now, i bet a bunch of them miss the good old days. maybe some are working to restore them. Mike Mullikin wrote: An Iraqi fringe group who were afraid of Saddam but think they can kick our ass hiding from Saddam, waiting for their chance to make it big. i bet a bunch of them see today as their best chance. Mike Mullikin wrote: Non-Iraqi arabs who want to take over a country in the middle east in non-Iraqi countries, dreaming up org charts and drawing straws on who gets the big palace. last report i read said something like, out of the 1000 insurgents captured in Fallujah, less than 25 were foreign. there's never been a definite count on the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, but even the highest i've seen have been in the low thousands - not a really big deal. Mike Mullikin wrote: A grass roots organization sprung up since Saddam fell iraq has a median age of 19 (US 34). that means there are a fuckload of teenage iraqi males running around with guns in near anarchy. we created that anarchy and people are trying to fill the void and steer the final outcome in their direction. no, i don't approve of how they're doing it. Software | Cleek
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Mike Mullikin wrote: You might be interested in this[^]. Very interesting[^] indeed.:cool: Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: supplant http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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So we should just pack up and leave it to them? Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
Im behind you 100% rob ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO MICROSOFT! Demonware Studios Leader
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Chris Losinger wrote: how sensitive of you to use her death as a political point. That's the best you can do? Still, you condemn those you deem conservative but have said nothing to criticize those who commited the act. I did not realize that you are that far to the left. I can only conclude that you support and or condone those who would do such a terrible act, right? Best, Jerry
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
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http://www.gmgplc.co.uk/gmgplc/scott/scottintro/[^] pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
Thanks for the info. :)
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
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pseudonym67 wrote: no male between the ages of 15-50 was allowed to leave before the attack As I recall all citizens were encouraged to leave, men in that age group were screened more carefully, and some detained, but not prohibited from leaving. Considering Fallujas history for the past six months, I would say all remaining were terrorists. pseudonym67 wrote: Yet in the thread below you were basically saying that the soldier who shot him shouldn't be condemned without a fair hearing. Indeed, and I see that cartoon as condeming him without a fair hearing. Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
Rob Graham wrote: Considering Fallujas history for the past six months, I would say all remaining were terrorists. So you've huddled under tables while bombs were fired from ships and dropped by planes for months and seen all the damage that has torn up your community and killed many of your friends and family. Now your home town is surrounded by hostile forces intent on comitting an offensive againt the local group of extremely violent 'freedom fighters'. Fighters who would likely kill you and your family if you tried to cooperate with the enemy forces. Both sides you know have a reputation of shooting first... you would still send your 16 year old son out to meet them? Would you try to sneak out of your home under dark and hope you don't get spotted by either side? I couldn't justify the risk, I would stay with my family in my home and pray constantly that both sides slipped by us unnoticed.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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Chris Losinger wrote: how sensitive of you to use her death as a political point. That's the best you can do? Still, you condemn those you deem conservative but have said nothing to criticize those who commited the act. I did not realize that you are that far to the left. I can only conclude that you support and or condone those who would do such a terrible act, right? Best, Jerry
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
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They target civilians to instill fear and to intimidate. They do not wear uniforms. They do not have a publicly defined chain of command. They're fucking terrorists by any rational definition. Making any kind of excuse for them is absurd. If all they wanted was us gone and a piece of the political pie the most direct method would be to blend in peacefully for a couple years until we leave then sieze power like Saddam. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: They do not wear uniforms. They do not have a publicly defined chain of command. Do you think they possibly have other things to do than produce uniforms? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Mike Mullikin wrote: They do not wear uniforms. They do not have a publicly defined chain of command. Do you think they possibly have other things to do than produce uniforms? "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
jan larsen wrote: They do not wear uniforms. They do not have a publicly defined chain of command. Do you think they possibly have other things to do than produce uniforms? Probably but the two criteria above are part of what defines a combatant under the Geneva convention. If he is not acting as a combatant under the GC then what the soldier did is not illegal under the GC. I think that was part of the point he was trying to make. Whether that should have any bearing on this case or not is another question. "The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." Albert Einstein Dave