when do you say you 'know' a programming language?
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I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
BlackDice wrote: If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? Knowing a language is different from knowing DirectX, MFC, ADO, sockets, etc. I know a few languages quite well because I can code algorithms, design sound object graphs, and know how to apply the correct language constructs, etc. In other words, the level of language knowledge doesn't get in the way of doing a decent job--it helps, not hurts. However, there's a world of stuff I don't know regarding various SDK's and API's. But those are on a need-to-know and just-as-soon-forgotten basis. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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I am self-taught with no degree. On top of that, I am an 8th grade drop out. Loved technology since 1981 when I started programming ;) At this time of the game though, it is getting harder to keep up with all the new technologies. It is best though to find skills that are in demand and shapen those to remain in demand. Of course, software design is more than a language, it is a mindset, which once built, can be applied to about any language or technology. Do not be afraid of failing though. Most competition will be over selling themselves, be honest and build the resume (even for contract work). If you have the work ethic to back it, an lack of knowledge you stumble across will not mean much. Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com - Now with RSS Feed www.JokesTricksAndStuff.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - Now with RSS Feed and Prizes www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com - Again :) Me Blog
Rocky Moore wrote: I am self-taught with no degree. On top of that, I am an 8th grade drop out. Loved technology since 1981 when I started programming darn.... felt like we were going for the walked a mile to school in the snow (barefoot) conversations. But I only dropped out of 3rd semester college. Self taught here also. I don't list a language unless I can read it, understand it, and write it back. I may be translating in my mind to/from another language, but that is not a limitation in my opinion. I do more reading of other languages than writing, I do a lot of translation from Ada, Fortran, Pascal, Basic and a few others into C/C++. I have written only one Ada program professionally, I still list it on my Resume. I have finally taken Cobol off my resume simply because I got tired of hearing calls for it, it is NOT what I want to be writing or reading. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
I agree with Marc... Knowing C++ is one thing...developing Windows applications using MFC/ATL/WTL/SDK, etc is completely different. How do I print my voice mail?
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Thanks. It's good to know there's other people out there making a living who are self-taught. The company I work for now takes people with usually no computer knowledge and teaches them VB (since that's what most of the work is in). I've wanted to make games since I was about 11, and had always read that C++ was the language to do it in. Now, I'm more concerned with building a career (and making some money :) ). But we don't really do any C++ stuff here, except for the few internal bug tracking and other various apps that i've made. If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
BlackDice wrote: It's good to know there's other people out there making a living who are self-taught Me too.... I did it backwards of course. Self-taught and THEN went to college..... Now I am pretty much the senior engineer for Windows development. As for "knowing" C++.... I do not "know" C++, I can code C++ applications. What I don't know, I can learn as I need it, or run into problems. I don't expect to know C++ for many years to come.... :) Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
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I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
BlackDice wrote: Re: when do you say you 'know' a programming language? For a problem that is in the modeling scope of the language, I know the optimum solution.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
Thanks for your honest reply. BTW, where would I find these 'Guru of the Week' questions? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
You're very welcome. And to reiterate what many others are saying, knowing a language, and knowing the libraries and api's are really different. Knowing one doesn't infer knowing the other, and they bot work together to make your job easier. But the guru of the week page is co-written by Herb Sutter, my idol of C++ knowledge and is at http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/
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I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
Never. I just say I know it well enough to do a good job at specific tasks, and to learn how to do others. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
C++ is a good example of this kind of issue. Do you know: 1. The core language 2. Standard libraries such as STL and ATL 3. Functions of a particular package such as Visual C++ and MFC 4. The features of a particular package (again using Visual C++ as an example) debugger, profiler etc. 5. OOA/OOD to design good software before you begin worrying about writing code. 6. Documenting A few brief thoughts to stir things up ;) Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Rocky Moore wrote: I am self-taught with no degree. On top of that, I am an 8th grade drop out. Loved technology since 1981 when I started programming darn.... felt like we were going for the walked a mile to school in the snow (barefoot) conversations. But I only dropped out of 3rd semester college. Self taught here also. I don't list a language unless I can read it, understand it, and write it back. I may be translating in my mind to/from another language, but that is not a limitation in my opinion. I do more reading of other languages than writing, I do a lot of translation from Ada, Fortran, Pascal, Basic and a few others into C/C++. I have written only one Ada program professionally, I still list it on my Resume. I have finally taken Cobol off my resume simply because I got tired of hearing calls for it, it is NOT what I want to be writing or reading. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
"darn.... felt like we were going for the walked a mile to school in the snow (barefoot) conversations." Well, I actually have one of those ;) I live in Southern Oregon at 4,200 ft. We get a fair amount of snow here. I walked to school one day when the snow was at least 2.5 ft deap. Was about three miles to school. Seemed to misplace my brain that day, and about froze. Got to school and did not see anyone. The janitor told me they had closed school for the day due to the snow. Out ouf my entire school history, this was the only day they every closed the schools here :laugh: I guess I should have just dropped out of school a little earlier that year :) Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com - Now with RSS Feed www.JokesTricksAndStuff.com www.MyQuickPoll.com - Now with RSS Feed and Prizes www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com - Again :) Me Blog
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BlackDice wrote: It's good to know there's other people out there making a living who are self-taught. I'm self-taught and have been making a living by programming for quite some years now... - Anders My Photos
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Me too. :) Ed Atwell
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BlackDice wrote: Re: when do you say you 'know' a programming language? For a problem that is in the modeling scope of the language, I know the optimum solution.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
Be careful you distinguish between knowing a language and knowing its standard libraries. cheers, Chris Maunder
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I asked a question last week about when people thought it was time to start learning new language. Now I'd like to hear some opinions on when you can say you 'know' a language? I'm not saying when you feel you can fool management, which I've heard as a response to this type of question a number of times. If I can make DirectX applications, can I say I 'know' C++? If I can make GUI-based database-driven applications using ADO, but I don't know anything at all about using sockets, can I say I 'know' C++? If you were going to hire somebody for your company and had a candidate that could make database apps (the only thing your company really makes), but didn't really know anything about writing ISAPI extensions, or some other part of programming that didn't specifically relate to the job he or she had to do, would that positively exclude the candidate from the prospective job applicants? Do written questions and tests count more than performance? Would you just go off of a written test? For instance, in grade school, (a supposedly 'gifted' school), I used to get in trouble in math class because I didn't show my work when doing multiplication problems that resulted in a 4 or 5-digit number. I knew how to do it in my head, (usually faster than the other kids on paper) and my answers were right more than 99% of the time, but I couldn't understand how to write the answers out like everybody else. So would you discount a programmer's knowledge because they didn't know what the C++ Standard says about assigning and modifying the same variable between sequence points, even if they could create good code blindingly fast? If I write code in my sleep, does that make me brilliant, or just a lazy programmer? My articles www.stillwaterexpress.com BlackDice - the programmer formerly known as bdiamond
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I now pronounce you, Man, and Compiler. regards, Paul Watson South Africa Michael Dunn wrote: "except the sod who voted this a 1, NO SOUP FOR YOU" Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Me too. :) Ed Atwell