US 'alienating' world's Muslims
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Humility doesn't mean weakness.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenpeterchen wrote: Humility doesn't mean weakness. Depends on who you are dealing with. The notion that humility is the appropriate first response to any sort of confrontation is most certainly a weakness.
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Rob Graham wrote: And the BBC article is an excellent example of how the Beeb uses selective quoting to make something seem entirely different than it is. MSNBC also had the same take... "Terror war seen hurting U.S. in Muslim world Radicals gain new stature, Pentagon advisory panel says" http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6577524[^] Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: pastiche http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
JoeSox wrote: MSNBC also had the same take... Never said that the beeb had an exclusive corner on distortion via selective quoting... if you read the whole report, the major point made is that we are losing the propaganda war, and that we need to focus more effort there. I have no argument with that at all. The beeb and MSNBC (and others) continue to help us lose that propaganda war by perpetually painting the US as the bad guys, while largely ignoring the atrocities on the othe side. Will the world be better off if the freinds of Osama and Al-Zarqawi win the propaganda war? Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
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JoeSox wrote: MSNBC also had the same take... Never said that the beeb had an exclusive corner on distortion via selective quoting... if you read the whole report, the major point made is that we are losing the propaganda war, and that we need to focus more effort there. I have no argument with that at all. The beeb and MSNBC (and others) continue to help us lose that propaganda war by perpetually painting the US as the bad guys, while largely ignoring the atrocities on the othe side. Will the world be better off if the freinds of Osama and Al-Zarqawi win the propaganda war? Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
I've read most of the report, and it says more than that. The report goes to say that many of our policies are anti-muslim, in the eys of muslims (not the report or me). This is also a powerful statement: "Thus the critical problem in American diplomacy directed towards the Muslim World is not one of "dissemination of information", or even one of crafting and delivering the "right" message. Rather, it is a fundamental problem of credibility. Simply, there is none - the United States today is without a working channel to the world of Muslims and of Islam. Inevitably therefore, whatever Americans do and say only serves the party that has both the message and the "loud and clear" channel: the enemy. Arguably the first step toward mitigating and eventually even reversing this situation is to better understand the values and worldview of the target itself." From there on it speaks about ways to do this. That a powerful statement, this means we want to resolve a situation we do not fully even understand. Now i would not be surprised if you could not tell me the difference between a Muslim, a sectarian Muslim, a Kurd or the different tribes and what they represent, but do you think Bush does? I mean how do you get peace, when you do not even know who you are fighting half the time. Look in Iraq, you have kids who think they are defending their homes, you have insurgents trying to fill in the vacuum of power, terrorist trying to make "jihad" with the western devil. Has anyone taken the time to try to distiguish these people and find common ground? This is more than just propaganda, its about relaying a message that better suits all of us. If you can look at this war and say that GWB made a wise well thought out decision, then you are just as lost. I have read post going on about, they want us all dead, maybe they just want to live? Who the hell is "they", or does putting a face, a name, and maybe a soul behind that person make just a little too real. And if anything the propaganda is on full when the Iraqi war comes to play, its so safe that they will run elections in a month, so unsafe Bush did not have make a second thanksgiving visit. Thats some propaganda Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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For the ignorant and people with IQ less than 10. US Fails to Explain Policies to Muslim World, Panel Says Panel condemns image US gives to Muslims Terror war seen hurting US in Muslim world
Obviously you did not read the report.
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
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Trollslayer wrote: At least the Pentagon is looking at this. Oh, happy day. Say, have you picked out your burka yet? Better hurry before the rush.
Saudi Arabia currently owns 5% of this nations economy and is our primary importer of oil. Most of the hijackers were Saudi Arabian, as were their sponsors. GWB and his pop consider the Saudi royal family as "close freinds", look down, you already have your burka on Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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You are paranoid. Your tin-foil hat is in the post. Despite their occasional anti-government bias, the BBC, being PUBLICLY FUNDED are still more impartial than any other media in the UK and I will not accept that Whitehall mandarins are skulking in the background pulling levers for political advantage. What proof do you have of government interference with BBC news storied? A "gut feeling"? "Personal belief"? Bollocks more like. You'll have to do MUCH better than that for fucks sake!
What the hell do you need? A blinking neon light to remind you of the lies that they have passed on? I will take a paranoid label over a blind fool label. The proof is Mordechai Vanunu was turned in by a Mossad spy working for the Sunday Mirror. If that is what Mossad had working for them imagine what MI5 has in their very own country. And that is the tip of the iceburg. They fed us crap on the WMD's (Which I myself bought, for a while) then invaded Iraq. It's an economic war for oil. That is the only possible reason for all this.
Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. - Schopenhauer
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peterchen wrote: Humility doesn't mean weakness. Depends on who you are dealing with. The notion that humility is the appropriate first response to any sort of confrontation is most certainly a weakness.
Noone says Humility means you do fight back. Kick him n the nose, hard, but stop bragging about your fist. Seeing a confrontation everywhere certainly is a weakness.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
And as if you've never displayed any arrogance. Oh wait, that's right let's not point the figure at ourselves. Jeremy Falcon
So Arrogance is OK for you, because you see it in me? What a fucked up world we live in.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
Anonymous Friend wrote: So do you think that the report and its finding are incorrect? Heck-ah-roony, the report is not only incorrect, it is a phantom. The mechnanization of some reporter's scotch-soaked mind. A flight of fancy. It is a sick attempt to incite misguided Muslim youth into stupid acts of violence that will only lead to the slow bleed off of the Muslim youth from the body Muslim politic. And look at you. You took the bait, didn't you? Didn't even check your facts because you don't truly understand who or what the heck is really going on. Best, Jerry
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
My apologies. The report does exist. I stand corected. Best, Jerry
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
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There are many situations where I might agree with that (in dealing with sane religions such as Christianity, for example). However, I do not feel that this is such a situation. Firstly, I have no tolerance of Muslim types who call our leadership criminal and have absolutely no criticism of their own culture. I have no intention of trying to "enlighten" anyone who is that out of touch with reality. All I hear them saying is that it is all our fault - that somehow we deserve what the terrorists give us. If any one thinks I am going to be humble confronted with that bullshit they are insane. If I could just hear one of these guys say "yeah, we have some problems at home that we really need to deal with" I would be very happy to meet them half way and admit that, yes, the US has some messes it needs to clean up also. But whatever the problem is, it is certainly not all our fault. We have done far more good than we have done harm. Secondly, these terrorists are very savy of Western civilization, they well understand the propensity of left wing elements in our society to back down from confrontations with foreign cultures in the name of "multi-culturalism". They know full well that the left suffers from a guilt ridden angst towards their own culture and they intend to take full advantage of it. I fully believe that a staunch defense of our own values, an in your face, confrontational approach to these guys is the best approach - to make sure there is no doubt in their minds that we have any intention of backing down from a single value or principle we believe in. Anything less will be a sign of weakness on our part that will merely bring on more violence. The solution to all this will ultimately be all of us working together to find one, but that is never going to happen until they understand that they will lose any direct confrontation with us. They have to rid themselves of terrorism or face complete distruction. So, in short, to hell with humility.
Stan Shannon wrote: sane religions such as Christianity Haaaaa haaa haa haaa haa haaaaa!!!!! Oh my God! Are you serious? I'm on the floor here. Haaaa haaa haaaa haa!! I had great aunts that were very deeply "Christian" and they were all nuts - completely out of their tree if you ask me. For instance, some emigrated to the United States, and then just after the second world war they sent the family that was still in Scotland clothes and other things that were in short supply. Now I'm sure the clothes were very nice for a Floridian summer - but in Scotland! The HIGHLANDS of Scotland is freezing. Even in the summer it doesn't get too warm. They tried to convert everyone they met. My father was sent countless pieces of propaganda because he'd had enough of it as a child and no longer "believed". I think that every religion, as every aspect of society, has its share of extreme elements. So you cannot state that Christianity is a sane religion any more than you can say that Islam is an insane religion because of a few extremists. They (Musilim Extremists) are killing their own people as well, in case you hadn't noticed.
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There are many situations where I might agree with that (in dealing with sane religions such as Christianity, for example). However, I do not feel that this is such a situation. Firstly, I have no tolerance of Muslim types who call our leadership criminal and have absolutely no criticism of their own culture. I have no intention of trying to "enlighten" anyone who is that out of touch with reality. All I hear them saying is that it is all our fault - that somehow we deserve what the terrorists give us. If any one thinks I am going to be humble confronted with that bullshit they are insane. If I could just hear one of these guys say "yeah, we have some problems at home that we really need to deal with" I would be very happy to meet them half way and admit that, yes, the US has some messes it needs to clean up also. But whatever the problem is, it is certainly not all our fault. We have done far more good than we have done harm. Secondly, these terrorists are very savy of Western civilization, they well understand the propensity of left wing elements in our society to back down from confrontations with foreign cultures in the name of "multi-culturalism". They know full well that the left suffers from a guilt ridden angst towards their own culture and they intend to take full advantage of it. I fully believe that a staunch defense of our own values, an in your face, confrontational approach to these guys is the best approach - to make sure there is no doubt in their minds that we have any intention of backing down from a single value or principle we believe in. Anything less will be a sign of weakness on our part that will merely bring on more violence. The solution to all this will ultimately be all of us working together to find one, but that is never going to happen until they understand that they will lose any direct confrontation with us. They have to rid themselves of terrorism or face complete distruction. So, in short, to hell with humility.
Stan Shannon wrote: dealing with sane religions such as Christianity, for example This is where you start all wrong, you've got to at least recognize their religion as equally valid as your own. After all, believing in something that can't be seen, can't be confirmed and, regardless, affects you views, is something you got in common. Stan Shannon wrote: We have done far more good than we have done harm. That could actually be correct, but the guy who saw the intestines of his wife and children splattered over the remains of his bombed home, probably won't say: "Oh well, at least they're sending food to the refugee camps, and hey, let's not forget WW2 and the Napoleon wars". "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Okay, we may not be perfect (far from it) but at least I don't care that you're a muslim. Whereas you see to care deeply that I'm not. We dont. We *really* dont. Its your govt and its brain washing that has corrupted your minds and put you in a confrontation with Muslim world. We dont invade countries. You are blaming 9/11 on 1.2 billion Muslims. You are wrong. Its you who have invaded countries with any reasons. Just check this page.
That link doesn't give reasons for the engagements so you're taking things way out of context.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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