Women in IT
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Thanks for pointing that out, I fixed my original post...ooops :-O I don't know that women are put off by the "geeky" stereotype, as much as "girls" are. Even that I think has changed a lot in the last few years. I think of the younger programmers, there will be significantly more women than in years before. "No one knows what power lies yet undevelopped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
qomi wrote: Even that I think has changed a lot in the last few years. I think of the younger programmers, there will be significantly more women than in years before. I think you're right. Change comes in two waves. First of all there's the pioneers, then it takes a generation for society as a whole to get over the novelty and realise it's OK for them too. More bus drivers in Hobart are female than male. In theory people were saying there's nothing wrong with that when I was 15, but in practice, I don't recall ever seeing a bus driven by a female. All humans are essentially conformist, and when female plumbers make the paper, it doesn't inspire other girls to do the same thing. I'm pleased that my daughter is growing up when she is, I think she's just in time for a society who not only accepts that women can do pretty much anything men can ( I used to single out peeing standing up, but there are websites for that now :-)), but that there is no reason to make a fuss if they decide to do something that has been percieved as traditionally male. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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"Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." My 8 year old daughter is facinated by anything to do with science and computers. She also doesn't seem to mind my pony tail.
Well, who does she look up to more than her daddy ? My 5 yo is the same, all over the PC whenever she can. Next upgrade ( soon ) she will inherit my Athlon 700. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Qomi, here are my criteria for working with fellow IT people: 1. Are they enthusiastic, willing to learn, share knowledge and push themselves? 2. Can they code and grasp concepts quite quickly 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. So whether you are female/male, blue/green, three eyed or just the usual two, I won't let it affect the working relationship. I wonder if I would think diferently about there being not such a huge problem between male and female IT people if I was female. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
I fail, because I don't drink ( although I tend to get along with people OK, so will that do ? ), and I have nothing much in my life apart from IT. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
As ever, an eloquent post, which I agree with wholeheartedly. My sister has recently had therapy and currently blames all of her lifes problems to me hitting er on the back with a twig when she was 2. My mum asked me if this happened, to which I said 'who cares' ? I was *5* and she was *2*, the real issue is why can't she take responsibility for her own life. John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: What a pile of dog guano. Guano is specifically bird droppings. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Sorry Michael, but I don't agree. Never underestimate the power of social conditioning - like it or not, we're all guided by the way we're brought up and the society we live in. Unless you fall into it by accident (which can happen of course), most people's choice of career is based on their (very limited) experience and perception. Our perception of the world we live in is very strongly perceived by how we're brought up, and by our peer group. Lets face it...when was the last time you heard a crowd of teenage girls discussing computers? ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul WatsonAndy Metcalfe wrote: Never underestimate the power of social conditioning - like it or not, we're all guided by the way we're brought up and the society we live in. Um, hello, I know this is the Internet, the wasteland of debates, but did you even read my post before jumping at the Reply link? To quote myself: Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. Replace "Women" with "People" and you have my reply. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
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Qomi, here are my criteria for working with fellow IT people: 1. Are they enthusiastic, willing to learn, share knowledge and push themselves? 2. Can they code and grasp concepts quite quickly 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. So whether you are female/male, blue/green, three eyed or just the usual two, I won't let it affect the working relationship. I wonder if I would think diferently about there being not such a huge problem between male and female IT people if I was female. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
1. Check. 2. Check. 3. If you meet me at the pub - something has gone very very wrong... :) 4. Yes. Many things... Hmm... I just can't seem to remember any at the moment, but I am pretty sure that there are other things in my life apart from IT... :confused: ... What was the question again? :)
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First, perhaps I shouldn’t have posted the link? I did not intend to start a debate. There has been talk about who works with women and how many women are out there for a while, so this was more to give an idea of how many women are in IT. I thought the number she gave was low. The more I think about it though, it could be right. There are reasons other than those which she gave. For example women tend to have more domestic duties than their male partners. Michael Dunn wrote: What a bunch of crap. If women want to become programmers, then do what I did - start playing with computers when you're young to see if you really like them, study programming at college, get an entry-level job where you can learn from the more experienced people around you. In other words, put some effort into it. I can only speak for myself as I dont' have any female friends in the field. My first coding-esque experience was when my mother brought home a comedor64 when I was about 9or10YO. She was doing extra work as a highschool math tutor, and I believe on the students she was tutoring gave it to her. I remember typing in lines and lines of “…...130 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH 140 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH 150 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH….” When I was 11 and living with my father and he sent me to computer camp for the summer. There I was using some kind of Apple and the coding was similar but not quite the same. One big difference was I liked it a lot more, and I could do more. Maybe because I was older, maybe because I had better references and other people to work with? *shrug* So, imagine how pleased I was when I moved back with my mother and she bought be a Tandy(don’t remember the #s) for my birthday! I was thrilled and shocked. It even had modem! However, I wasn’t allowed to have it in my room, and my step-father basically took it over. I wasn’t allowed to even touch it until he got it ready. After it was ready all I was allowed to do on it was play games and use the word processor. I don’t know what I would have done if given the chance but I would have liked to have had it. When deciding what post secondary to take, I did an aptitude test. The areas I scored high on were analytical thinking, creativity, and something that had to do with caring for others. The top career suggestions I was given was kinesiology, acupuncture, herbalist. I went down the list until I found something that had to do with computers (I don’t’ even remembe
qomi wrote: While in college, and working on team projects. I was always the only woman on my team. I was the one that booked out the projector for our presentations. I was the one who booked the rooms for our meetings, and presentations. I was the one that made sure everyone was on the same page and no one was doing the same work as anyone else or that nothing was being forgotten. I was the one who … Sure, but back in school (and on a few recent occasions) I was also always the honourary secretary, although no one ever called me that. I was the only person in the group who gave a shit about how things turned out. I think your last point has more to do with one's involvement in the project and NOT the shape of one's genitalia. qomi wrote: First, perhaps I shouldn’t have posted the link? I did not intend to start a debate. :) You definitely should have posted the link. Following interesting and healthy discussion like this is what makes the day go by. PS You're profile says you're in Canada... Are you in Toronto too? There seem to be a few of us around. J
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Michael Dunn wrote: The image problems start at an early age, said Anne Cantelo, project director at the e-skills NTO. "Girls as young as 11 perceive IT as boring. They watch the soaps and the cartoons and see IT professionals as short, pale, greasy, pony-tailed, socially inadequate people. It's not glamorous." Bwahahahahahaha !!!! The question is, do we WANT these people, male or female, in our industry ??? Anyone who watches the soaps is a certified moron IMO. Cartoons, on the other hand, rock. What cartoons present a negative image of IT, and what intelligent person takes advice on what is cool from a talking rat ? Michael Dunn wrote: Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. Amen to that - and I'd hold to that comment for any subsection of society that takes an 'I'm oppressed or I'd be doing better' approach instead of getting off their butts and DOING something. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: Anyone who watches the soaps is a certified moron IMO I second that!!! ****Christian Graus wrote: Cartoons, on the other hand, rock Agree with this too. Although, it would be more accurate to say "Some cartoons rock". I vote pro drink :beer:
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****Christian Graus wrote: Anyone who watches the soaps is a certified moron IMO I second that!!! ****Christian Graus wrote: Cartoons, on the other hand, rock Agree with this too. Although, it would be more accurate to say "Some cartoons rock". I vote pro drink :beer:
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Agree with this too. Although, it would be more accurate to say "Some cartoons rock". Too true. I should have said 'cartoons have the potential to rock' It's time for Animaniacs..... Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Very eloquently put John, and (believe it or not) I agree with you on this one. As far as I'm concerned pushing people into a career they have no interest in is the worst kind of social bulls**t - my point was simply that gender, background and social conditioning do affect the way we look at ourselves and our future - whether we like it or not. Fortunately, it's much less of an issue than it used to be. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Agree with this too. Although, it would be more accurate to say "Some cartoons rock". Too true. I should have said 'cartoons have the potential to rock' It's time for Animaniacs..... Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
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No this isn't a geek specific dating resource :laugh: Due to the frequency of comments about female co-workers, I thought I'd post it... The final frontier: Women in IT "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
I was a Math major in college, so I can't speak for the computer science courses, There were not many women especially in the upper division classes. There would only be 1 or 2 other women taking the class. Only two of the many math courses I took were taught by women. These two were my favorite ones. In the first, Calculus, she talked me into wanting to be a math professor. Of course that's not where I ended up but that's another story. She was definately my mentor. The other one, Number Theory, was my second favorite teacher. Of course quite a few of my male teachers also took me under their wing. I don't know what my point is, except that things are changing. I think 20 years ago, there were hardly any women in math. 20 years from now, we won't see any gender discrpancies at all. The more women go into a field, the more are available to mentor the one's coming in. It's not that men didn't try to mentor me. I just didn't really see my life being able to be like their life. For example, the female Calculus teacher that inspired me had was pregnant. So she showed me that I could do that job and have a family too. The male teacher had a wife that stayed home to take care of his kids. I figured I probably wasn't going to be able to have one of those since I'm not attracted to women. I don't really know, but just from looking around, it seemed like there were a lot more women in computer science courses than in math courses. Sorry for rambling on and not really going anywhere. Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
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Andy Metcalfe wrote: Never underestimate the power of social conditioning - like it or not, we're all guided by the way we're brought up and the society we live in. Um, hello, I know this is the Internet, the wasteland of debates, but did you even read my post before jumping at the Reply link? To quote myself: Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. Replace "Women" with "People" and you have my reply. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
Michael, unfortunately I didn't have time to respond to your post in as much detail as I'd like (we were in the middle of a code merge f**k-up at work :(), so forgive me for missing a few points. Maybe I should have emphasised that I don't agree with the viewpoint of the author of the article - people make their own choices and no amount of whining about it by social so called "experts" will change that. So as for women (or any other group) blaming other groups for their trouble - that's just whinging, and won't change a thing. Doing something constructive as an individual will - if enough people do it. Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote: Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. We can get Cartoon Network in the UK too now (at least via Cable/Satellite). Courage the Cowardly Dog is one of my favourites too! Of course there's Boomarang too for the older stuff - remember Wacky Races and Catch the Pigeon? They're back... :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
What a crock of shit. The world is full of bleeding-heart liberals tghat think being PC will cure the world's problems. What we need are people who simply user their brains for something more than a media-driven illusion of reality. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Read my other reply John. I've got no time for PC crap either. ;) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
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Qomi, here are my criteria for working with fellow IT people: 1. Are they enthusiastic, willing to learn, share knowledge and push themselves? 2. Can they code and grasp concepts quite quickly 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. So whether you are female/male, blue/green, three eyed or just the usual two, I won't let it affect the working relationship. I wonder if I would think diferently about there being not such a huge problem between male and female IT people if I was female. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? Ha - I've worked with a few of that type (though replace 'schnapps' with 'vodka' and it would be more accurate) In a perfect world I'd love to have people like this to work with. In reality I am happy to have someone who you can rely on to do their share in a timely and effective manner. cheers, Chris Maunder
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No this isn't a geek specific dating resource :laugh: Due to the frequency of comments about female co-workers, I thought I'd post it... The final frontier: Women in IT "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
About 6 months ago I started writing an article on women in IT based on the readership at CodeProject. A couple of helpful lasses wrote back with some great info but I then became so disallusioned with attitudes to women in IT that I put the whole thing on the backburner. Guess it's time for me to pull it out and write it up properly. Qomi - interested in giving me your 2c? cheers, Chris Maunder
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Vivek Rajan wrote: Why should (3) and (4) matter in a IT co-worker? In (4), Would it be ok if their "other" activities were contrary to what you might consider acceptable ? For me in addition to (1) and (2), I would like to work with people who are honest about work issues (dont intentionally overlook bugs, etc). I really have no problem if they dont want to have a drink with me, lunch with me, or talk non-work issues with me. They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers. I think the general reply to your position is: "I manage people and work in teams. If the guy is an asseole but a great programmer, I don't want him around. He will cause more problems than he is worth." I work very closely with people in my work and not all of it is "how do I do this function or access that interface?". A lot of it is ideas and concepts which need someone who is willing to talk to you and you can get on with it. Look at Richard Branson, pretty successful guy. He goes out and gets rat faced with his employees. Look at his employees, quite a happy, well motivated and successful bunch. Additionally as I have said before computers are not my life and in fact I don't even have one at home, out of choice. So I would like to be able to relate to co-workers outside of pure technical terms. e.g. Sports, movies, books, science etc. Computers are not everything. Vivek Rajan wrote: They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers That is called "old world thinking" IMHO. That is how the big old bad companies were run and frankly that is not a life, that is a souless entity. I would rather be a bit less successful but having a good time with good people than be more successful and hating everyone I work with. Good relationships are so key to good work environments. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: I think the general reply to your position is: "I manage people and work in teams. If the guy is an asseole but a great programmer, I don't want him around. He will cause more problems than he is worth." I If the guy conformed to points (1 and 2) and was honest, what makes him an asshole ? Surely, he has the _right_ not to want to have drinks with you, or talk about golf/football, or girls. Surely, he cant be fired for that reason only. I guess there will always be diverse folks, some social/some anti-social, some can take a joke/some others get offended easily, some enjoy company after work/some other look forward to just going home, some smile all the time/ some smirk all the time. I guess we have to learn to just accomodate these differences _at_work_. Again, we dont have to love them, just accomodate them. However, I do agree with you - if we only have "professional" attitudes at work, it would make for a boring and plastic work environment. Later- Vivek
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Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
I used to get someone in the US to tape Kids WB for me, for Animaniacs. I love the older cartoons as well, I especially love the few WB did with a family of three bears and the kid is huge and stupid. I dunno if Powerpuff girls plays here, but the merchandise has certainly landed. Never heard of the other two though. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
